Sanctification is not a Process

[marks]

Could we define the terms "holiness" and "righteousness" up front, please? I don't think y'all are arguing about the same thing.

Great idea!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Okay, that'll help understand where you're coming from.

My own understanding of "holiness" as applied to God refers to His "otherness", His complete separation from His creation. When applied to persons, places, or things, it means separated out of the world for God's use.

My understanding of "righteousness" is that in the relational sense, it means meeting the obligations of the relationship, whether that relationship is husband-wife, parent-child, friend-friend, neighbor-neighbor, employer-employee, citizen-government, or human-God. The latter has some overlap with "holiness", since we have an obligation to allow God to use us as He sees fit. In a more limited forensic sense, to be declared "righteous" (i.e. "justified") means the judge has found in your favor in whatever the matter in dispute was.

Where I see some commonality with your position is that sin is primarily a failure to meet a relational obligation, but in a sense also a failure to separate from the world.

I like this!! Maybe others also will chime in with their understandings of righteousness and holiness.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

I believe both would be defined as perfection. walking without sin..

What? After all this time and we have to go over the meaning of words? Please look into getting a thesaurus or a dictionary BEFORE posting from ignorance.

Righteousness is something that we know we are doing right, because we have a conscience...being created in the image of God. A righteous person doesn't claim to be righteous...he/she acts or works righteousness as much as possible. Only God can judge is a person is ultimately righteous.

Righteous is as righteous does. We are responsible for what we know and what we have been given. We will be judged against what we should/could have done. But no one is so righteous that they never sin. Righteousness is OUR best effort at right doing.

Holiness is to be in the presence of God. There is not even the smallest amount of sin that can enter into holiness. No one can be holy of themselves. We are only holy when we are IN Christ...to be where He is. Holiness is about location, location, location. As I've said hundreds of times over the years on this forum.

Now, we can learn righteousness, but we can't learn holiness. Holiness is totally "other". It is only found in and with God. Through Christ we have access into HIS holiness.

Those who have known Christ know that sanctification is instantaneous..to be WHERE He is. Even His words sanctify us...in HIS presence.

 

[MatthewG]

@Episkopos, it is Jesus Christ that makes us right with God, and allows God to adopt us and make us alive spiritually in the Lord Jesus by faith in the resurrection in which now a person becomes adopted. Now with a Father and a revelation on the other nature that is Spirit, which was promised to be given to the apostles by the Lord. Upon receiving the holy spirit of God, it is said the Spirit of Christ is also with-in the person now in which he is manifested forth by having fellowship with the Father and the Son.

You suggest that there is no room to grow or learn or become in the habitat of putting one’s life and love for God and love for others (even if they are labor workers, or bums on the street, poor or rich, drug abusers, top paid athletes, weight lifters, ex-cons, etc), in a process of growing?

A process of growing and abiding in Christ who is the vine, and the Father may prune us sometimes back, that believers may produce more fruit.

A process of renewing the mind, in becoming conformed to the Messiah, and living by the spirit and allow him to come through you in which the things of the spirit are attributed from the heavenly ways and nor earthly in which our soul only takes pleasure in the earth. The soul receives rest the more it receives and processes the life of the Lord and his travels and his teachings and his surrounds and the time and the circumstances.

John 15​

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New Living Translation​

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Jesus, the True Vine​

15 “I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. 3 You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you.4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me.
5 “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. 7 But if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted! 8 When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father.
9 “I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. 10 When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. 11 I have told you these things so that you will be filled with my joy. Yes, your joy will overflow! 12 This is my commandment: Love each other in the same way I have loved you.13 There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you slaves, because a master doesn’t confide in his slaves. Now you are my friends, since I have told you everything the Father told me. 16 You didn’t choose me. I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce lasting fruit, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name.17 This is my command: Love each other.

The World’s Hatred​

18 “If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first. 19 The world would love you as one of its own if you belonged to it, but you are no longer part of the world. I chose you to come out of the world, so it hates you. 20 Do you remember what I told you? ‘A slave is not greater than the master.’ Since they persecuted me, naturally they will persecute you. And if they had listened to me, they would listen to you. 21 They will do all this to you because of me, for they have rejected the one who sent me. 22 They would not be guilty if I had not come and spoken to them. But now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Anyone who hates me also hates my Father. 24 If I hadn’t done such miraculous signs among them that no one else could do, they would not be guilty. But as it is, they have seen everything I did, yet they still hate me and my Father. 25 This fulfills what is written in their Scriptures[a]: ‘They hated me without cause.’
26 “But I will send you the Advocate[b]—the Spirit of truth. He will come to you from the Father and will testify all about me. 27 And you must also testify about me because you have been with me from the beginning of my ministry.

No one will of course be perfected in the flesh, but if they desire to be mature and submit to God and the Lord by the spirt and to have a change life from a hateful life to a live that is filled with love for anyone and all out of respect, and to live peaceful with all people if possible.

Therefore if a person desires more of the spirit in their life they can ask God for the help, to help you with these things below.

“And I say: In the Spirit walk ye, and the desire of the flesh ye may not complete; for the flesh doth desire contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit contrary to the flesh, and these are opposed one to another, that the things that ye may will — these ye may not do; and if by the Spirit ye are led, ye are not under law. And manifest also are the works of the flesh, which are: Adultery, whoredom, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects, envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revellings, and such like, of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that those doing such things the reign of God shall not inherit. And the fruit of the Spirit is: Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law; and those who are Christ's, the flesh did crucify with the affections, and the desires; if we may live in the Spirit, in the Spirit also we may walk; let us not become vain-glorious — one another provoking, one another envying!”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭16‬-‭26‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

Galatians 5:16-26 And I say: In the Spirit walk ye, and the desire of the flesh ye may not complete; for the flesh doth desire contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit contrary to the flesh, and these are opposed one to | Young's Literal Translation 1

And I say: In the Spirit walk ye, and the desire of the flesh ye may not complete; for the flesh doth desire contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit co...

bible.com

 

[marks]

1 Corinthians 6:11

And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

and this sanctification is eternal. a completed action. Concerning the moving from the old covenant to the new, The author of Hebrews states this

Interesting passage!

1 Corinthians 6:11-20 KJV
11) And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12) All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
13) Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
14) And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
15) Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16) What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17) But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18) Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19) What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20) For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

They are washed, sanctified, justified, whose bodies are members of Christ, the temple of the Holy Spirit, purchased by God, owned by God, one spirit with Him, even as the husband and wife become one flesh. One spirit with Him.

And to these, he says, "flee fornication", as if there were some question of whether or not they would. They are admonished to glorify God in body and spirit, considering that God has bought them, and owns them.

Having been sanctified, they are admonished to live a sanctified life.

This again demonstrates an inner spiritual work that has been accomplished, and that we are to implement in our lives.

Much love!

 

[marks]

this is where we need some concept of the rules of language to really understand what is being said, but not only this, to test the spirit of what others say to determine if what they say is truth or not.

And we need to be able to suspend reaching conclusions until we understand what these passage tell us. Even if the concepts seem difficult to get ahold of, we need to accept what is said.

My experience has been that as I hold to the exact thing that is said, what others see as "conflicts", or "tension", these don't appear. The conflicts are there when the passage isn't understood, or when it's being "re-worked" in the reader's mind.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Amen! Growth is an ongoing process and there are no short cuts to entire sanctification/glorification.

God can give whatever gifts He wants. We walk by faith. One of the gifts spoken of is Faith. Might He give a gift of faith to someone that enables them to walk consistenly in the Spirit? I think so.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What? After all this time and we have to go over the meaning of words? Please look into getting a thesaurus or a dictionary BEFORE posting from ignorance.

Righteousness is something that we know we are doing right, because we have a conscience...being created in the image of God. A righteous person doesn't claim to be righteous...he/she acts or works righteousness as much as possible. Only God can judge is a person is ultimately righteous.

Righteous is as righteous does. We are responsible for what we know and what we have been given. We will be judged against what we should/could have done. But no one is so righteous that they never sin. Righteousness is OUR best effort at right doing.

Holiness is to be in the presence of God. There is not even the smallest amount of sin that can enter into holiness. No one can be holy of themselves. We are only holy when we are IN Christ...to be where He is. Holiness is about location, location, location. As I've said hundreds of times over the years on this forum.

Now, we can learn righteousness, but we can't learn holiness. Holiness is totally "other". It is only found in and with God. Through Christ we have access into HIS holiness.

Those who have known Christ know that sanctification is instantaneous..to be WHERE He is. Even His words sanctify us...in HIS presence.

I suggest you get off of self and focusing on you and learn to focus on God

Righteousness in the greek means not guilty. innocent. justified. It is not we THINKING or KNOWING we are doing right. what we think or know does not matter its about what we do.

Holiness is being like christ. Christ is holy. without sin.. Its not being in the presence of God. we are not in the presence of God now. Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord.. As long as your in this body you are not present with God..

Get over yourself asnd stop using the english dictionary as your source of truth. God did not inspire the english dictionary, He inspired the greek, hebrew and aramaic text we call the word of God

 

[marks]

Holiness is being like christ. Christ is holy. without sin.. Its not being in the presence of God. we are not in the presence of God now. Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord.. As long as your in this body you are not present with God..

Because our walk is by faith and not by sight. We are in His presence, He is in us, we are in Him. And He has said, I will never leave you, nor forsake you.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

I like this!! Maybe others also will chime in with their understandings of righteousness and holiness.

Much love!

If we are truly seperate of the world , then we would not love the things it does . WE would simply love what GOD loves .
How bout that for reminder . we are to be seperate , holy , etc . But the problem is
i see many who think they are , yet they love and embrace the sins the world does . THEY aint seperate , they aint .
They mouth only . TRUE HOLINESS COMETH OF GOD and it comes WITH A HEART CHANGE .

 

[Episkopos]

God can give whatever gifts He wants. We walk by faith. One of the gifts spoken of is Faith. Might He give a gift of faith to someone that enables them to walk consistenly in the Spirit? I think so.

Much love!

That's right ....it is the gift of faith (the faith OF Christ) that allows a person to remain in the keeping power of God.

That gift unleashes the full measure of grace to walk as Jesus walked. By grace through faith.

 

[Episkopos]

@Episkopos, it is Jesus Christ that makes us right with God, and allows God to adopt us and make us alive spiritually in the Lord Jesus by faith in the resurrection in which now a person becomes adopted. Now with a Father and a revelation on the other nature that is Spirit, which was promised to be given to the apostles by the Lord. Upon receiving the holy spirit of God, it is said the Spirit of Christ is also with-in the person now in which he is manifested forth by having fellowship with the Father and the Son.

We enter into the race of faith by being given an initial grace at regeneration. From there we learn to rely on God and be led by the Spirit in the wilderness...just like the Israelites we read about in the book of Exodus. We become exactly equivalent to them by becoming the people of God in OUR time the way they were in theirs.

You suggest that there is no room to grow or learn or become in the habitat of putting one’s life and love for God and love for others (even if they are labor workers, or bums on the street, poor or rich, drug abusers, top paid athletes, weight lifters, ex-cons, etc), in a process of growing?

We are to grow in righteousness. In right doing. Learning righteousness is a process that leads to a maturity in righteousness. But that still is not what the gospel is about.

A process of growing and abiding in Christ who is the vine, and the Father may prune us sometimes back, that believers may produce more fruit.

Abiding in Christ is different. Abiding in CHrist means you have been translated into the heavenly walk ...in Him is no sin.

A process of renewing the mind, in becoming conformed to the Messiah, and living by the spirit and allow him to come through you in which the things of the spirit are attributed from the heavenly ways and nor earthly in which our soul only takes pleasure in the earth. The soul receives rest the more it receives and processes the life of the Lord and his travels and his teachings and his surrounds and the time and the circumstances.

Again, learning righteousness. Or, on the holiness scale...learning to walk in HIS righteousness.

No one will of course be perfected in the flesh, but if they desire to be mature and submit to God and the Lord by the spirt and to have a change life from a hateful life to a live that is filled with love for anyone and all out of respect, and to live peaceful with all people if possible.

Therefore if a person desires more of the spirit in their life they can ask God for the help, to help you with these things below.

We can follow the Spirit while we still walk in our own power.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And we need to be able to suspend reaching conclusions until we understand what these passage tell us. Even if the concepts seem difficult to get ahold of, we need to accept what is said.

My experience has been that as I hold to the exact thing that is said, what others see as "conflicts", or "tension", these don't appear. The conflicts are there when the passage isn't understood, or when it's being "re-worked" in the reader's mind.

Much love!

amen, If we all took our biases out of it. We would all believe the same Thats how pure Gods word is

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Because our walk is by faith and not by sight. We are in His presence, He is in us, we are in Him. And He has said, I will never leave you, nor forsake you.

Much love!

In the sense of being holy like him though. We will not be there until we are face to face with him. It is then we will be like him

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If we are truly seperate of the world , then we would not love the things it does . WE would simply love what GOD loves .
How bout that for reminder . we are to be seperate , holy , etc . But the problem is
i see many who think they are , yet they love and embrace the sins the world does . THEY aint seperate , they aint .
They mouth only . TRUE HOLINESS COMETH OF GOD and it comes WITH A HEART CHANGE .

But even those who have a heart change will still fail. The will still do nothing when they know they should do something, because they are too tired..They will still desire something so strongly they end up failing to do some good because they are tryign to get that thing.

we don‘t love perfectly like God loves, that has to grow in us. As we experience and trust Gods love for us more and more. That is growing spiritually or ”being sanctified?

 

[marks]

amen, If we all took our biases out of it. We would all believe the same Thats how pure Gods word is

That, and one other thing. Imposing allegory or parable where the text isn't allegory or parable prevents coming to common agreement. When people do that, they arrive at different interpretations from each other.

One example being the Sheep/Goats judgement. If we look at it as happening exactly as stated, we're both reading the same things, and understanding it the same way. If we look at it as parable, well, those that do understand it to be the great white throne judgement, or to show the importance that we should be careful to do good works, or that it shows the judgment of the church, or, I've heard many different ideas about that.

There isn't a single understanding if viewed allegorically, because there is no "key" to the "allegory", therefore each interprets as they see it.

The only way there is a single understanding among us all is if we read the words as we normally do language. When I tell you what I'm planning to make for dinner tonight, you don't then go back to try to interpret 'what I'm really saying', do you?

Much love!

 

[marks]

In the sense of being holy like him though. We will not be there until we are face to face with him. It is then we will be like him

I mean, He is really here. My Creator Father is here with me right now. He's participating in my life. He is here, He loves me, and His is working all of these things for my good.

I think the Bible teaches this without uncertainty, and in myself, I know that it's true. Remembering this truth always, that makes the difference for me in my walk of faith.

No, I'm not face to face, and so, no, I'm not fully transformed to be like Him. As you've said, that happens when we see Him, will will be like Him. He will transform the "body of our humiliation" to be like His glorious body.

Much love!

 

[marks]

That's right ....it is the gift of faith (the faith OF Christ) that allows a person to remain in the keeping power of God.

1 Peter 1:3-5 KJV
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

This keeping by the power of God through faith is to those who are born again.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That, and one other thing. Imposing allegory or parable where the text isn't allegory or parable prevents coming to common agreement. When people do that, they arrive at different interpretations from each other.

One example being the Sheep/Goats judgement. If we look at it as happening exactly as stated, we're both reading the same things, and understanding it the same way. If we look at it as parable, well, those that do understand it to be the great white throne judgement, or to show the importance that we should be careful to do good works, or that it shows the judgment of the church, or, I've heard many different ideas about that.

There isn't a single understanding if viewed allegorically, because there is no "key" to the "allegory", therefore each interprets as they see it.

The only way there is a single understanding among us all is if we read the words as we normally do language. When I tell you what I'm planning to make for dinner tonight, you don't then go back to try to interpret 'what I'm really saying', do you?

Much love!

one thing I have noticed about a parable or allegory. Even when jesus spoke. he gave us the interpretation of what it really meant

If we do nto see an interpretation given, we should take it literally

 

[Eternally Grateful]

1 Peter 1:3-5 KJV
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

This keeping by the power of God through faith is to those who are born again.

Much love!

and its not Christ's faith.. its our faith IN him