satan a creature or man without God

[lforrest]

Sorry I overlooked your post earlier... What does Jude 1:9 mean that would cause a loss of meaning?

"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." Jude 1:9

The truth whatever it is will remain no matter what we believe... whether I am right or you and others are right on this thing with regard to satan.

On the verse from Jude, I see the body of Moses as the body of the laws given to the man Moses. The devil would be those who sought to retain the old covenant while Michael was contending for the better Way through Christ.

In Jude I see a warning against being disrespectful to these beings. How does that work within the interpretation of symbolic persons?

 

[truthquest]

Many Christians are aware of spiritual warfare. But many others are not. Spiritual warfare is something that people are dealing with both unbelievers and believers. Even Christians deal with it but they are more aware about what it is and how to handle it. 1Cor. 15:57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Demon possession is on the rise throughout the world. I believe it is important to know and realize this because many people need help. They can't be helped if we deny the reality of demon possession. What are we going to tell people who need or ask us for help who are dealing with demonic activity in their homes and lives especially when it affects children?

Spiritual warfare is not a fight against flesh and blood.
Ephesians 6:10Therefore, my brethren, be strengthened in Our Lord and in the force of his power. 11And put on all the armor of God, so that you can stand against the strategies of The Devil. 12Because your fight has not been with flesh and blood, but with Principalities and The Rulers and The Powers of this dark world and with wicked spirits which are under Heaven.

13Because of this, put on all the armor of God that you shall be able to confront The Evil One, and when you are ready in all things, you shall stand. 14Stand therefore and gird your waist with the truth and put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15And shoe your feet with the readiness of The Gospel of peace, 16And with these, take to you the shield of faith, that with it you may have the power to quench all of the blazing bolts of The Evil One. 17Put on the helmet of salvation and grasp the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
Aramaic bible

The scriptures speak about spirit possession or demon possession.
This is how the Apostle Paul handled one particular situation involving a spirit or demon possession. Some people possessed by demons are able to foretell the future or know certain things about other people as it was in this case. How did Paul deal with that situation? He didn't just say, ignore her because that's just an evil side of her, nothing more than that.
Acts 16:16 And it was that as we were going to the house of prayer, there met with us a girl, one who had a spirit of divination upon her and she was making a great business for her masters in the divination that she had been practicing. 17She was coming after Paulus and after us, crying and saying, "These men are Servants of the highest God, and they are evangelizing to you the way of life." 18And thus she was doing for many days, and Paulus was angered and he said to that spirit, "I command you in the name of Yeshua The Messiah to come out of her", and at that moment, it came out.(Aramaic bible)
By the way, demons enjoy harassing Christians and I think this is a good example of that.

Luke 8:1It happened after these things that Yeshua was traveling a circuit in the cities and villages and preaching and announcing the Kingdom of God and his twelve were with him, 2And these women who had been healed from sicknesses and from evil spirits: Maryam who is called Magdalitha, she from whom seven demons had gone out 3And Yohanna the wife of Chuza, the steward of Herodus, and Shushan and many others who were ministering to them of their possessions. (Aramaic bible)

Did Jesus cast demons from people?
Luke 8:26And they sailed and they came to the region of the Gadarenes which is on the other side next to Galilee. 27And when he unboarded to land, a man met him from the city who had a demon in him for a long time. He was not wearing clothes, and he was not living in a house but among the tombs. 28And when he saw Yeshua, he screamed and he fell before him, and with a loud voice, he said, "What business do we have with you Yeshua, the Son of God Most High? I beg of you, do not punish me!" 29For Yeshua had commanded the vile spirit to go out from the man, as it had possessed him for a long time. And he had been kept bound in chains and in shackles and he would burst his bonds and he would be driven by the demon into the desert. 30But Yeshua asked him, "What is your name?" But he said to him, "Legion", because many demons had entered him. 31And they were begging him that he would not command them to enter the abyss.(Aramaic bible)
Luke 8:32 Now a herd of many swine was there grazing on the mountain, and they were begging him to permit them to enter the swine, and he permitted them. 33 And the demons went out from the man and they entered the swine and the whole herd went straight to the precipice and they fell into the lake and drowned.
34But when the herdsmen saw what happened, they fled, and they related it in the city and in the villages. 35And people went out to see the thing that happened and they came to Yeshua, and they found that man, whose demons had gone out, being clothed, sober and sitting at the feet of Yeshua, and they were in awe. 36And those who had seen it related to them how the demoniac man had been healed. 37And the crowds of Gadarenes were all begging him that he would go from them, because great fear had seized them, and he, Yeshua, embarked the ship and returned from among them. 38But that man from whom the demons had gone out was begging him that he might join him and Yeshua dismissed him and he said to him: 39"Return to your house and relate the thing that God has done for you." And he went on, and he was preaching in the whole city the thing that Yeshua had done for him.


Mark 9:17 And one from the crowds answered and said, "Teacher, I brought my son to you, who has a dumb spirit." 18"And whenever it comes upon him, it throws him and it beats him and he gnashes his teeth and he wastes away, and I spoke to your disciples that they might cast it out, and they were not able." 19Yeshua answered and said to them, "Oh faithless generation, how long will I be with you? How long shall I endure you? Bring him to me." 20And they brought him to him, and when the spirit saw him, immediately he threw him and he fell on the ground and he was convulsed and he foamed. 21Yeshua asked his father, "How long a time now has he been like this?" He said to him, "From his childhood." 22"And many times it has thrown him into fire and into water to destroy him. But if you can do anything, help me, and have mercy on me!" 23Yeshua said to him, "If you are able to believe, everything is possible to the one who believes." 24And immediately the father of the boy cried out weeping and saying, "I believe my lord ; help the lack of my faith." 25And when Yeshua saw that the people ran and gathered near him, he rebuked that foul spirit and he said to it, "Deaf spirit, that does not speak, I am commanding you, go out from him, and you shall not enter him again." 26And that demon screamed greatly and pounded him and went out and he was like a dead man, so that many were saying, "He is dead." 27But Yeshua took him by his hand and raised him up. 28But when Yeshua had entered the house, his disciples asked him among themselves, "Why were we not able to cast it out?" 29He said to them, "This sort cannot come out by anything except by fasting and by prayer." (Aramaic bible)

There are of course more scriptures about this but I'm a little tired right now. I came across this video although not the best but it has a good testimony toward the end of the video....And I didn't mean to be underlining so much but that was hard to correct.

 

[amadeus]

The pride that led to Satan's fall into iniquity is compared to the pride of the king of Tyre, just like the pride of the king of Babylon is compared to that of the Devil by the prophet Isaiah.

Of course your quotation fits. You are not the first to suggest that it means that.

The king of Tyre cannot claim to be an "anointed cherub", nor was he ever present in Eden. The only ones present in Eden was Adam, Eve, and that old serpent, the Devil.

According my view, there were only two in the Garden, and the satan within [described in I John 2:16] would have been the one tempting them to sin.

What is a cherub? That it is anointed and then fell describes also men within scripture as well as without.

If that was the case, then Jesus Christ wouldn't be referring to the Devil as a HE, an actual person or entity, just like God is referred to as a HE.

And who was Jesus speaking to in this verse?

"But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." Matt 16:23

And who did he call a devil here?

"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." John 6:70-71

Again, just like the pride and lusts of the King of Tyre and Babylon are compared to Satan, so to are the lusts and pride of the Jews compared to that of the Devil. A comparison to Satan doesn't automatically mean he isn't a real being.

Those are still speaking of actual evil men rather a devil. If a devil or the devil was intended it is not spelled out.

Where was satan’s beginning?

“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” I John 3:8

Even as Judas and Peter were devils Adam also was a devil, the first devil! He was the first man that committed a sin. He sinned from the beginning.

“And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.” Gen 1:31

Before Adam sinned everything God created was “very good”.

Even Adam was “very good”. But…God had given Adam something He had not given the rest of His creation: the ability to make informed choices.

I do believe that there is another meaning to the text, but it is not about a supernatural angelic being from the Father's dwelling place. I do not believe that any being that dwells with Father in the 'third' heaven has ever been cast out due to sin. I do not believe that sin can be committed within that third heavenly realm. I believe that sinners cannot get into third heaven and none ...including any 'devil' or any 'satan' has ever been there.

You have yet to provide the scripture showing angels to be simply men.

See post #25

 

[amadeus]

I differ. You brought up the possibility when you say satan could just be our bad self.

Even so. I stand corrected.

Thus if you can interpret satan just as our bad self, then there is nothing to stop you or others interpreting Jesus as our good self. In other words, it would be consistent with your interpretation.

Stranger

Of course you are right, but if a person is really searching for truth, God's truth, in a way acceptable to God, he is likely to find exactly that truth.

 

[amadeus]

Mark 8:33 [33] But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

I don't believe for a second Peter was ever Satan. His behavior was against God's will and plan and Jesus rebuked that behavior, which was behavior of the flesh. Maybe you will say that proves your point.

No my point is not so easily proven nor is the opposing point. The important thing for each of us, as I see it, is to recognize that there is an adversary in ourselves. Is there one or more outside of ourselves? Certainly every person who stands against us as we work in the Way of God is in that period of opposition an adversary. God is looking for us to believe or disbelieve in a separate being called satan. He is looking someone who is seeking first His kingdom and His righteousness. Sometimes satan when we make him Satan gets to be too important in the overall scheme of things.

I have even experienced a rebuke from the Spirit when something I do is against God's will and plan. It is obvious. Jesus handled Peter differently than Judas (a son of perdition).John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus kept each of the disciples(all those that are His), except Judas, so that scripture might be fulfilled.

Indeed, but it is not, I believe, a predestined thing for you or me or anyone. God keeps us because like David we have chosen to become men/women after God's own heart. In a sense this is predestination because God already knows who is to be on His side in the end, but at the same time those who do end up with Him had a choice and chose His Way rather than any alternative. I believe this without regard to who satan is or is not.

Zechariah 3:1-2
[1] And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord , and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. [2] And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

What I believe Jesus was saying concerning Peter was: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? This one is mine. With Judas, it was different. Judas was turned over to Satan: a vessel fitted for destruction. John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. (I won't get sidetracked on what that means for Judas.)

I see the two men of each of person who has met the Master: the old man [satan] and the new or inner man. They continue to battle each other until the final battle:

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?" James 4:1

What needs to be understood is that God never loses battles. We do. We lose because we quench the Holy Spirit of God in us effectively taking Him out of the battle... and we lose again.

How can Satan enter Judas if Satan is not outside of Judas? I will say, Amadeus. I have thought the same thing as what you suggest in the thread. The flesh is ugly and the deeds of the flesh are all attributes of Satan. There, are times, I feel very much like there is a devil on my back. They are interconnected though, are they not? Satan and the flesh.

Whether they are two manifestations of one thing or two separate things they are most certainly connected. Our primary problem perhaps is what we might want to call, "free will". We need to get rid of it once and for all giving the reins to our life finally and completely to God. What actually happens is that we must repeatedly be giving the reins back to Him. My experience is that it may often, or even always, a daily necessity... and more than a once a daily necessity.

As when Christ enters us; He steers and guides us in the path of righteousness. Without Christ, the flesh goes the way of Balaam. And who knows, there may be some truth to what you have shared, although I will say the closer I become to God, the more I notice the Spiritual, rather than the physical. Rather than say the Spiritual are common man behavior(good or bad)...I can not help but see it as so much more: the unseen more real than that which is only temporary and fading away. To see there is something outside of man.

Perhaps what occurs without the leading of the Lord in our lives is we take hold of the fruit of that wrong tree [the one from which Adam and Eve ate] every time we quench the Holy Spirit in us. We then decide for ourselves what is good and what is bad. We fail on this in the long run for certain. We see the shadow of it in the OT when men had to repeatedly bring their sin offerings to the priest [shadow of Jesus] to make atonement. This might be called living like a yo yo... in to God, out to man, and so forth. People live like this, making a habit of it, and then say no one can live without sinning. So then are they not saying that Jesus came for nothing?

2 Kings 6:16-17 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them. [17] And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord , I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

No. I don't believe he saw actual horses and chariots of fire around Elisha. But I fully believe what He saw was the power of God surrounding Elisha: a power that was outside of Elisha; not in Elisha.

Amen! What he was given was a bit of the vision that each person needs so as not to perish:

"Where there is no vision, the people perish:..." Prov 29:18

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

But what do I know? It changes daily as He reveals more.
Ecclesiastes 10:2 A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left.

Amen! As our vision improves from as "through a glass darkly" on the approach to the "face to face".

 

[amadeus]

In Jude I see a warning against being disrespectful to these beings. How does that work within the interpretation of symbolic persons?

It's another one of those things that might cause a problem for any point of view taken, including mine. I am not clear on why Michael would not or could bring a railing accusation. Perhaps someone else reading this will help us on that.

 

[Helen]

I guess you are trying to get others to believe God is daft and doesn't who or what He's doing or talking to, correct?

For the life of me I have no idea why people just can't answer a post, and state their case of the opposite view or opinion.
Why make it personal?
Why make it rude?
Why make it harsh?
Disagree politely and then state your own opinion...that is not hard to do!!

 

[Helen]

When Jesus spoke to the Jews here, he said their father was the devil. I don't think that their carnal father of flesh and bone, the husband of the mother who gave physical birth to them, was a spiritual being called satan.
Sometimes people want to blame their own faults or errors on someone else. The enemy we need to overcome is within ourselves.

..and...some people don't like their theology messed with, neither do they like having to ever think outside the comfort box.
And...some people have the inability to 'see' beyond ...

I enjoyed the opening post...it is good for me to get what I believe challenged. :)
Bless you...H

 

[amadeus]

i guess it prolly comes across as trying to attack a belief, a sacred cow, perhaps; but i recommend holding on to the belief as long as you like, and just considering any other perspective as a theory, for the fruit of understanding that that might yield. If it doesn't yield fruit, then toss it imo

Probably every person has, or has had, some of those sacred cows. How important are they? If they interfere with our growth toward God serious consideration should be given to casting them aside.

 

[Helen]

just maybe, some of what I believe may be error no matter who decided it right before. This includes this thing with satan. I am really hoping to see something new here from the other side, but I really would be surprised if I did.

It seems although this is a DISCUSSION SITE it seems too far a reach for some to want to move outside what they believe and/or calmly state 'the other view' on it.
Be bless brother.

 

[amadeus]

that is absolutely correct, thing is even an atheist can read and comprehend what text is there and is not, and in what context its in. these people can't do that much, either that, or its their full intention to make Christianity fit their views and what they think in their own judgements of what is good and evil and what Christianity and God ought to be in the same.

Yes, an atheist can read the Bible with a carnal understanding, but until he opens his heart he cannot know God. If a believer reads the Bible only with his own understanding, he may likewise, I believe, move toward losing his first love, which means...? Perhaps moving into delusion?

if you notice more often then not, people post here and other Christian forums too, to test if their own BS will stick, and if it is believable or not. and if that don't work they come back with another version of the same BS. in the name of we should be open minded because the world says that's right.

Sometimes, just sometimes, God may send people with a message which purposely raises questions so that people will want to understand Him better and move closer to Him:

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

In all honesty why are they here? religion is an entity in human society to keep God out of their world in the first place. the people who walk with the Living God walk in the world with Him in their daily lives. not in some place or state of mind separate from the world. we must remember the world was made by Him.

But the things of evil were brought into being when man sinned against God in Eden. Man has continued doing this same thing ever since.

Joh_1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matt 7-22-23

 

[amadeus]

It seems although this is a DISCUSSION SIT it seems too far a reach for some to want to move outside what they believe and/or calmly state 'the other view' on it.
Be bless brother.

And then so perhaps it must be!

"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun." Ecc 1:9

 

[Helen]

It is true - we are our own worst enemy. Yet, i do not believe the incomplete nature of our ego / old man rules out the exostence of angels

Well said , and very nicely said.
I personally fall toward the "old time religion"...so I am not seeing all that Amadeus sees...mainly because of spending a number of years in what is called the Deliverance ministry. Having looked into the eyes of the demonic and heard them speak...I am convinced that it was not just something evil or dark "in" the person..but totally another personality.
One of these happened to be my dear old mother. No need for the whole story, but I knew I was speaking to 'other personalities' within her as I was praying release over her life... my mum, ( but not my mum, and NOT her voice)...
Looked with evil strange eyes straight into mine, and said " Leave us alone, we don't have to obey you or listen to you.." Obviously I rebuked them and bound them..and " my old 87yr old mother 'was back'.

What I think is so sad on "christian" sites is that whenever some peoples views are challenged they either get frightened , unnerved, or somethings...which makes they lash out angrily.

 

[Helen]

On satan the evidence for a separate creature is there, but it is to me flimsy, whereas the evidence in the other direction is also there. The quoted posts of two other people here caused me to start this thread really in hope of learning something new.

I notice so often people want an either/or answer.....but in so many things of the Word, there is no real conflict, because the answer is BOTH!

 

[Helen]

i guess it prolly comes across as trying to attack a belief, a sacred cow, perhaps; but i recommend holding on to the belief as long as you like, and just considering any other perspective as a theory, for the fruit of understanding that that might yield. If it doesn't yield fruit, then toss it imo

Mark...I think that is probs the wises post you have ever posted!!
Well said! Excellent advice. :)

 

[DPMartin]

Well said , and very nicely said.
I personally fall toward the "old time religion"...so I am not seeing all that Amadeus sees...mainly because of spending a number of years in what is called the Deliverance ministry. Having looked into the eyes of the demonic and heard them speak...I am convinced that it was not just something evil or dark "in" the person..but totally another personality.
One of these happened to be my dear old mother. No need for the whole story, but I knew I was speaking to 'other personalities' within her as I was praying release over her life... my mum, ( but not my mum, and NOT her voice)...
Looked with evil strange eyes straight into mine, and said " Leave us alone, we don't have to obey you or listen to you.." Obviously I rebuked them and bound them..and " my old 87yr old mother 'was back'.

What I think is so sad on "christian" sites is that whenever some peoples views are challenged they either get frightened , unnerved, or somethings...which makes they lash out angrily.

you don't see what Amadeus sees because its not there.

what he is saying and using don't make man Satan. no more than you being a child of God born of the Holy Spirit makes you God. do you see the hack job being done to scripture?

 

[twinc]

Mark...I think that is probs the wises post you have ever posted!!
Well said! Excellent advice. :)

just stop a while and consider what makes me I and what makes thee you - if the roles were reversed then you would be I and I would be you - so whether we believe it or not this is what reincarnation asks that we consider seriously that would soothe many an aching heart and hard head or better still just simply simply believe as some say like dumb Catholics - more later - twinc

 

[Helen]

@truthquest I know it is never received well, ..because people don't understand that realm it is easier to just 'blow it off' as junk.

Having indeed like you, come face to face in combat with 'them'...we know the truth...we don't talk about it much, because who on earth wants to advertise the work of the Devil. He loves attention...but the flip side is..if no one reveals his evil Kingdom people are left clueless and ignorant, which in fact is what most want to be..ignorant or in denial .

That Priest/Pastor whatever is right...demons never want to give you their name..because once you have their name and know what nature they use, you have more power over them to get them out.
Within most bound people, we have found that the two main "door -keepers" ( first in, and last out) have the name's Fear and the name Selfpity.
These are the hardest to move out....(they have their hooks in the person and will not let go easily.)

Satan has a kingdom and it isn't 'only' the dark side of our self.

 

[twinc]

Mark...I think that is probs the wises post you have ever posted!!
Well said! Excellent advice. :)

whilst some are still in a conciliatory, thoughtful, philosophical mood let us pause and momentarily seriously consider that God states in the bible that He is good and evil and we were/are created in His image and likeness - brings to mind a large battery and many and different smaller ones all with positive and negative viz good and evil - or better still simply simply believe - more later - twinc

 

[bbyrd009]

Probably every person has, or has had, some of those sacred cows. How important are they? If they interfere with our growth toward God serious consideration should be given to casting them aside.

scapegoats serve a purpose, until they do not, ya. The herd needs them, so they aren't going anywhere anytime soon right. new herd members every day. Hold whatever belief about satan serves you, it isn't a crime, and no one can prove it wrong