Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[Davidpt]

LOL. That is the typical church tradition teaching that “Lucifer” is Satan, even though the Bible itself never plainly teaches that doctrine. People repeat what they learned from Sunday school, commentaries, and tradition instead of carefully examining the Scriptures.

Ezekiel 28 is speaking symbolically about man in his exalted state and fall into sin. The description matches Adam far more than some fallen angel theory. Adam was in Eden, the garden of God. Adam was created perfect until iniquity was found in him. Adam was placed in God’s holy dwelling and lost his position through disobedience.

The passage never says “Satan was once a holy angel named Lucifer.” That idea is read into the text by tradition. The word “Lucifer” itself only appears once in Isaiah 14:12 in the KJV and refers to the king of Babylon in the context.

You need to stop allowing church tradition to interpret Scripture for you and start letting the Word of God speak for itself.



Gal 4:16
(16) Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?



Allow me to teach you what God actually says:

The Lucifer that weakens or discomfits the nations is the MESSENGER of the church who has the spirit of Antichrist to usurp God's Word and rule by his own means. He is the SINFUL MAN, or as 2nd Thessalonians calls him, the man of lawlessness. The ruler who doesn't obey God's law becasue he has the spirit of disobedience. God did not talk about favorite angel as you think!

2nd Thessalonians 2:3-4

• "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
• Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

A falling away or separation "from" the truth of God's law to believe Satan's lies concerning what God said. Just as Adam and Eve did in the garden! Here is your Lucifer or falling star. The name Lucifer applies to the man who sins. The man not of righteousness, but of sin. The messenger (not your precious angel) of the kingdom of heaven who has this spirit of disobedience to believe whatever he wants. You've all seen the Pastors and Ministers of the church who have gone astray teaching for doctrines of God the doctrines of men. This is no new thing.



Ahem...
It was through the corporate head of mankind (Adam) that we all started out in God's likeness of being created without sin, but man soon lost it. Mankind and his particular dilemma is summed up in the portrait of King Tyrus.

Ezekiel 28:14-15

• " Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
• Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

King Tyrus is a representation of mankind as he was created in the righteous likeness of God (without sin) and perfect, and remained that way in God's paradise until the day that he committed iniquity. God did NOT talk about angel in physical heaven. MAN! Right here on Earth! It was sin that brought death and the end to Adam/Mankind's perfection/righteousness in communion with God, and it can only be through rebirth from that dead that he can have that communion and creation image restored.

Genesis 1:27

• "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

If by "created" God had meant only believers, then Adam and Eve would have never sinned unto death and fallen from communion with God. Not "angels". Moreover, by God saying male and female He created THEM, it's clear God is speaking about the creation of mankind, not a specific angel beings! Duh! As all have their genesis in Adam. It is also clear that mankind couldn't retain that perfection in which God said was good, so Adam was not created saved/a believer. It was sinlessness in which he was created. Thus God in referring to Adam couldn't be talking about creating a believer because believers don't fall unto death. He may have been created elect, but not a believer because he fell and death was the result.

Genesis 2:17

• "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

And die mankind did! God created them in His image, saw that all that He created was good, but warned the day they disobeyed (that iniquity/lawnessness was found in them) would be the day they would cease being righteous/perfect/lawful and come under sentence of death. Thus Adam and Eve were not created as eternal believers, they could really only be that in regeneration after the fall Only then would they be brought permanently back into the image of God. The same way we (mankind through him) is. When created, man and woman were in the image of God, they were perfect and thus worthy to be in God's Paradise of Eden until the day that they sinned. It was by that sin that mankind lost the image or likeness of God. In losing it, they were then forbidden to remain in the Paradise of God. They were cast out by their iniquity.

(Contiune to next post)

IOW, the following block of text MUST be understood like such. BTW, though, Ezekiel was a prophet not a history teacher. Of course though you apparently don't grasp that prophets don't prophesy about past events, they prophesy about events in the future. But let's just ignore that plus ignore what we end up with below, especially when we get to verse 17 in regard to the first man Adam. (TFMA) = 'the first man Adam' throughout.

Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus(TFMA), and say unto him(TFMA), Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou(TFMA) sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou(TFMA) hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy(TFMA) covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy(TFMA) tabrets and of thy(TFMA) pipes was prepared in thee(TFMA) in the day that thou(TFMA) wast created.
14 Thou(TFMA) art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee(TFMA) so: thou(TFMA) wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou(TFMA) hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou(TFMA) wast perfect in thy(TFMA) ways from the day that thou(TFMA) wast created, till iniquity was found in thee(TFMA).
16 By the multitude of thy(TFMA) merchandise they have filled the midst of thee(TFMA) with violence, and thou(TFMA) hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee(TFMA) as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee(TFMA), O covering cherub(TFMA), from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine(TFMA) heart was lifted up because of thy(TFMA) beauty, thou(TFMA) hast corrupted thy(TFMA) wisdom by reason of thy(TFMA) brightness: I will cast thee(TFMA) to the ground, I will lay thee(TFMA) before kings, that they may behold thee(TFMA).
18 Thou(TFMA) hast defiled thy(TFMA) sanctuaries by the multitude of thine(TFMA) iniquities, by the iniquity of thy(TFMA) traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee(TFMA), it shall devour thee(TFMA), and I will bring thee(TFMA) to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee(TFMA).
19 All they that know thee(TFMA) among the people shall be astonished at thee(TFMA): thou(TFMA) shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou(TFMA) be any more.

Summary of the fate of the first man Adam

1) I will cast thee(TFMA) to the ground, I will lay thee(TFMA) before kings, that they may behold thee(TFMA).

2) will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee(TFMA), it shall devour thee(TFMA)

3) and I will bring thee(TFMA) to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee(TFMA)

4) All they that know thee(TFMA) among the people shall be astonished at thee(TFMA)

5) thou(TFMA) shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou(TFMA) be any more.


Obviously, you are not reasonable, you are not reachable, it's as if you are in contact with alien beings somewhere then speaking some alien language none of the rest of us on earth understand. Imagine that, instead of Adam standing among the saved in the end of days, God is going to bring him to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold him.


Have you not read Luke 3:38 before? Do you seriously think Adam's name would end up among the line that leads to Christ if God is going to bring Adam to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold him? What is wrong with you sometimes? Seriously.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Obviously, you are not reasonable, you are not reachable, it's as if you are in contact with alien beings somewhere then speaking some alien language none of the rest of us on earth understand.

LOL... Perhaps, it sounds like an alien language because you do not like what you hear? :-)

Okay, the rule of thumb applies that "assumption is the mother of error." Adam was called the anointed cherub because he was representative man, created in the likeness of God in Adam, and has fallen to sin and lost all semblance of the image of God. Clearly, the King of Tyrus was NOT in the Garden of Eden, nor perfect in beauty as Adam was, but he is representative of mankind and his degradation. Selah! Let read Ezekiel 28 again:

Ezekiel 28:12-16

• "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
• Thou hast been in Eden the Garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
• Thou art the anointed Cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
• Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
• By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering Cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire."

At first glance it is easy to see how one could make such a mistake about the king representing a fallen angel in heaven. However, rather than "reading into this text" an angel, the king of Tyrus is quite clearly a man being castigated by God for being created in the image of God to be righteous, but who has turned from God in his sin and thus come under judgment. So rather than represent a fallen angel, this represents FALLEN MAN. It illustrates original man in Adam, created good (Genesis 1:26-27) in the image/likeness of God before the fall. Man, as he was created without sin, but who has fallen in Adam, losing the glory of the likeness of God he was created with. Thus because of his fall and our inheritance of his spirit of bondage to disobedience, we are all subject to death. But thanks to our God, that full glory of God's image can be restored in Christ Jesus. Thus He is often referred to as the second Adam.

1st Corinthians 15:20-22

• "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
• For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
• For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

Now we can see the spiritual darkness begin to clear as we can see more of the picture. We were 'all' created in the image of God in Adam. The sin of Adam separated man from that image of God. And in the process, it separated all of us in generations to follow from that likeness. It was man who was perfect in the mountain (Kingdom) of God. But sin was found in us, and we all died in Adam (1st Corinthians 15:20-22) and are come under judgment as surely as King Tyrus had. And except we are restored to the image of God that 'man' had in the garden, we remain fallen and subject to the wrath of God. The king of Tyrus is man directly from the loins of Adam, who can only be restored to the image of God, in the second Adam, which is Christ.

Romans 8:29

• "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

It should be self-evident that (according to scripture) it was man (Adam) and not angels who were in the Garden of Eden where every precious stone was his covering. It was Adam who was the anointed Cherub that covereth upon the Holy mountain of God because He was the very image/likeness of the Glory of God. It was Adam who walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire (in the presence of God) in that Garden. Do you not realize that the very name "Tyrus" means a stone. So it's quite obvious to me what is being illustrated here! It was in Adam that man was in the image of God and perfect in all his ways in the garden from the day that he was created, until iniquity was found in him (the fall). And the fall of the king of Tyrus in his sinfulness "personifies" this fall from God's image by Adam. God is illustrating to fallen man that we qualify by attempting to be like God in eating of the tree of knowledge without wisdom. Man qualifies for "all" that we read in Ezekiel 28:12-16. But look, the idea about the angels do NOT qualify. We interpret scripture by scripture, not by popular assumptions or church traditions. And not once do we read of angels in the Garden of Eden. Not once do we read of angels falling in the Garden of Eden. Not once do we read of angels being corrupted because of knowledge. Not once do we read of angels defiling their sanctuaries by the multitude of their iniquities. On the contrary, we read of man in the garden, man was perfect there from the time he was created, and man is the one who fell there. And let's not forget, did not God say these very things of Adam?

Genesis 3:22

• "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

It is man who was corrupted because of knowledge, not angels. Hello?! He sought to be as God by his disobedience in eating of the tree of knowledge, and it was this that caused his fall in the day he transgressed. Satan in the Garden of Eden didn't have every precious stone his covering, but Adam was made glorious, precious in the sight of the Lord. Selah! Satan was not set the anointed Cherub that covereth upon the holy mountain of God, but scripture says Adam (man) was created in the very image of God so that this definition is consistent. In point of fact, everything in the Garden of Eden, including the serpent, was 'under dominion of Adam,' (Genesis 1:26-28;3:1) as He was perfect. Adam was the very likeness or image of God. ..as a Cherub!!

Genesis 1:26-27

• "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
• So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Letting the scripture be its own interpreter, we must ask where is it written in scripture that Satan was created in the image of God (as a Cherub) in the Garden of Eden? We don't read that of Satan, but we do read that of man! Scripture does not say that Satan was perfect in the day He was created until his fall, but God created Adam (man) perfect, without sin, with free access to the tree of life until the day of his fall. In all of scripture, there is no one (besides Christ, the God man) whom God declares was created perfect, except Adam. This in itself should illustrate to us that the king of Tyrus "personifies" man who had everything, and lost it in the fall. In fact the very language, "perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created," clearly harkens back to the creation of Adam.

Genesis 5:1-2

• "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
• Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created."

So again, it all points to the King of Tyrus as a representation of fallen Man, not of an angel nor Satan. Adam walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire and had no reason to hide from God before the fall. All these things which God speaks of concerning the King of Tyrus, applies to Adam before the fall. He was the very image of God (cherub) from the day that he was created, till iniquity was found in him. And by the multitude of his iniquity is there violence, and he has sinned, and therefore will God cast him as profane out of His Mountain. When God says, "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus," it is a lamentation for man, not for Satan, nor for fallen angels. When God says, "I will destroy thee, O covering Cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire," it speaks of the judgment of man, and how He is come under the wrath of God.

And so the support for the Cherub being an angel is not really as sound as many people might think. The symbolic image of the Cherubim, that John, Isaiah and Ezekiel saw, were a pictorial figure of the glory of God. And the Ark of the Covenant, the Mercy Seat, and Lord, dwelling with the Cherubim, illustrated that the tabernacle of God is with men, not the angels! And that He would dwell with them, and they would be his people, and He their God. It's the personal relationship of the Creator, to His people who are His messengers (angels).

Selah!

 

[Grailhunter]

Satan and his demons.....are a fact. Not just a cardboard cutout that we can blame for tempting us.
Satan and his demons influence all to sin and to make sin a norm. Look at the leftist and democrats.
For them freedom is criminal and creepy behavior... The creepy and the homos and druggies are tired of being thought of as scum....now they want it to be acceptable and normal and respectable. There team leader is Satan and Satan is a devil and enemy of God. But according to the Old Testament it was not always that way.

There is a reason why the Jews do not believe in a devil or Hell. Neither are part of the Old Testament. But Christians when they translated the scriptures did not understand why the devil and Hell was not part of the Old Testament so when they translated the scriptures they inserted a devil and Hell. (Mostly the KJV and other older translations.)

Isaiah 14:12.....Lucifer is depicted as a name for the devil. This is corruption of the scripture and it is not in line with the story. The story is about and corrupt king. Lucifer is a Latin word and could not be part of the Hebrew scriptures. Lucifer is the Latin name for Venus.....the planet and the goddess. The storyline mentions the morning star and that is the planet Venus but Satan is not the morning star. Lucifer sounds male and sinister and they wanted to put the devil in the Old Testament so they corrupted the scriptures.

The Old Testament never defines Satan as a devil.
In the Old Testament, Satan is mostly mentioned in Job were he enters the Holy Court of Yahweh and seems to be in good standing with Yahweh. And Satan's "job" seems to be to assess righteousness. From there some Christians read the devil into the Old Testament.

And Christians do not like unanswered questions, but there are some unanswered questions.
1. We do not know the details of the disagreement that lead to the fall of a third of the Angels.
2. We do not know the details of the battle between Yahweh and corrupt Angels.
3. We do not know when it happened.

The time between the Testaments was about 400 years and when the storyline picks up in the New Testament Satan is a devil and the enemy of God and us and Hell is the destination for evildoers. The concept of Hell as an eternal fiery punishment was so new that there was not a word for it. So Yeshua and the Apostles had to use examples and descriptions for it. They did use the word Hades (Only in the New Testament) But Hades was a Greek word for a Greek god and the underworld he ruled over. They used the word and changed it definition to an eternal fiery place of punishment.

Most Christian imagery of Hell as in the details comes from….The Divine Comedy an Italian narrative poem by Dante Aligieri, begun circa 1308 and completed around 1321, shortly before the author's death. It is widely considered the pre-eminent work in Italian literature and one of the greatest works of world literature.
and
Paradise Lost an epic poem by the 17th-century English poet John Milton (1608–1674). The first version, published in 1667, consists of ten books with over ten thousand lines of verses. A second edition followed in 1674, arranged into twelve books It is considered to be Milton's master piece, and it helped solidify his reputation as one of the greatest English poets of all time.

Either way Hell is real and Satan is a devil and he and his demons are actively causing sin.

 

[WPM]

IOW, the following block of text MUST be understood like such. BTW, though, Ezekiel was a prophet not a history teacher. Of course though you apparently don't grasp that prophets don't prophesy about past events, they prophesy about events in the future. But let's just ignore that plus ignore what we end up with below, especially when we get to verse 17 in regard to the first man Adam. (TFMA) = 'the first man Adam' throughout.

Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus(TFMA), and say unto him(TFMA), Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou(TFMA) sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou(TFMA) hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy(TFMA) covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy(TFMA) tabrets and of thy(TFMA) pipes was prepared in thee(TFMA) in the day that thou(TFMA) wast created.
14 Thou(TFMA) art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee(TFMA) so: thou(TFMA) wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou(TFMA) hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou(TFMA) wast perfect in thy(TFMA) ways from the day that thou(TFMA) wast created, till iniquity was found in thee(TFMA).
16 By the multitude of thy(TFMA) merchandise they have filled the midst of thee(TFMA) with violence, and thou(TFMA) hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee(TFMA) as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee(TFMA), O covering cherub(TFMA), from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine(TFMA) heart was lifted up because of thy(TFMA) beauty, thou(TFMA) hast corrupted thy(TFMA) wisdom by reason of thy(TFMA) brightness: I will cast thee(TFMA) to the ground, I will lay thee(TFMA) before kings, that they may behold thee(TFMA).
18 Thou(TFMA) hast defiled thy(TFMA) sanctuaries by the multitude of thine(TFMA) iniquities, by the iniquity of thy(TFMA) traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee(TFMA), it shall devour thee(TFMA), and I will bring thee(TFMA) to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee(TFMA).
19 All they that know thee(TFMA) among the people shall be astonished at thee(TFMA): thou(TFMA) shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou(TFMA) be any more.

Summary of the fate of the first man Adam

1) I will cast thee(TFMA) to the ground, I will lay thee(TFMA) before kings, that they may behold thee(TFMA).

2) will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee(TFMA), it shall devour thee(TFMA)

3) and I will bring thee(TFMA) to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee(TFMA)

4) All they that know thee(TFMA) among the people shall be astonished at thee(TFMA)

5) thou(TFMA) shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou(TFMA) be any more.


Obviously, you are not reasonable, you are not reachable, it's as if you are in contact with alien beings somewhere then speaking some alien language none of the rest of us on earth understand. Imagine that, instead of Adam standing among the saved in the end of days, God is going to bring him to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold him.


Have you not read Luke 3:38 before? Do you seriously think Adam's name would end up among the line that leads to Christ if God is going to bring Adam to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold him? What is wrong with you sometimes? Seriously.

Very well put. There is no counter to this. They do not want to see. This is a major deception and heresy denying Satan, demons and angels.

 

[WPM]

LOL... Perhaps, it sounds like an alien language because you do not like what you hear? :-)

Okay, the rule of thumb applies that "assumption is the mother of error." Adam was called the anointed cherub because he was representative man, created in the likeness of God in Adam, and has fallen to sin and lost all semblance of the image of God. Clearly, the King of Tyrus was NOT in the Garden of Eden, nor perfect in beauty as Adam was, but he is representative of mankind and his degradation. Selah! Let read Ezekiel 28 again:

Ezekiel 28:12-16

• "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
• Thou hast been in Eden the Garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
• Thou art the anointed Cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
• Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
• By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering Cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire."

At first glance it is easy to see how one could make such a mistake about the king representing a fallen angel in heaven. However, rather than "reading into this text" an angel, the king of Tyrus is quite clearly a man being castigated by God for being created in the image of God to be righteous, but who has turned from God in his sin and thus come under judgment. So rather than represent a fallen angel, this represents FALLEN MAN. It illustrates original man in Adam, created good (Genesis 1:26-27) in the image/likeness of God before the fall. Man, as he was created without sin, but who has fallen in Adam, losing the glory of the likeness of God he was created with. Thus because of his fall and our inheritance of his spirit of bondage to disobedience, we are all subject to death. But thanks to our God, that full glory of God's image can be restored in Christ Jesus. Thus He is often referred to as the second Adam.

1st Corinthians 15:20-22

• "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
• For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
• For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

Now we can see the spiritual darkness begin to clear as we can see more of the picture. We were 'all' created in the image of God in Adam. The sin of Adam separated man from that image of God. And in the process, it separated all of us in generations to follow from that likeness. It was man who was perfect in the mountain (Kingdom) of God. But sin was found in us, and we all died in Adam (1st Corinthians 15:20-22) and are come under judgment as surely as King Tyrus had. And except we are restored to the image of God that 'man' had in the garden, we remain fallen and subject to the wrath of God. The king of Tyrus is man directly from the loins of Adam, who can only be restored to the image of God, in the second Adam, which is Christ.

Romans 8:29

• "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

It should be self-evident that (according to scripture) it was man (Adam) and not angels who were in the Garden of Eden where every precious stone was his covering. It was Adam who was the anointed Cherub that covereth upon the Holy mountain of God because He was the very image/likeness of the Glory of God. It was Adam who walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire (in the presence of God) in that Garden. Do you not realize that the very name "Tyrus" means a stone. So it's quite obvious to me what is being illustrated here! It was in Adam that man was in the image of God and perfect in all his ways in the garden from the day that he was created, until iniquity was found in him (the fall). And the fall of the king of Tyrus in his sinfulness "personifies" this fall from God's image by Adam. God is illustrating to fallen man that we qualify by attempting to be like God in eating of the tree of knowledge without wisdom. Man qualifies for "all" that we read in Ezekiel 28:12-16. But look, the idea about the angels do NOT qualify. We interpret scripture by scripture, not by popular assumptions or church traditions. And not once do we read of angels in the Garden of Eden. Not once do we read of angels falling in the Garden of Eden. Not once do we read of angels being corrupted because of knowledge. Not once do we read of angels defiling their sanctuaries by the multitude of their iniquities. On the contrary, we read of man in the garden, man was perfect there from the time he was created, and man is the one who fell there. And let's not forget, did not God say these very things of Adam?

Genesis 3:22

• "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

It is man who was corrupted because of knowledge, not angels. Hello?! He sought to be as God by his disobedience in eating of the tree of knowledge, and it was this that caused his fall in the day he transgressed. Satan in the Garden of Eden didn't have every precious stone his covering, but Adam was made glorious, precious in the sight of the Lord. Selah! Satan was not set the anointed Cherub that covereth upon the holy mountain of God, but scripture says Adam (man) was created in the very image of God so that this definition is consistent. In point of fact, everything in the Garden of Eden, including the serpent, was 'under dominion of Adam,' (Genesis 1:26-28;3:1) as He was perfect. Adam was the very likeness or image of God. ..as a Cherub!!

Genesis 1:26-27

• "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
• So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Letting the scripture be its own interpreter, we must ask where is it written in scripture that Satan was created in the image of God (as a Cherub) in the Garden of Eden? We don't read that of Satan, but we do read that of man! Scripture does not say that Satan was perfect in the day He was created until his fall, but God created Adam (man) perfect, without sin, with free access to the tree of life until the day of his fall. In all of scripture, there is no one (besides Christ, the God man) whom God declares was created perfect, except Adam. This in itself should illustrate to us that the king of Tyrus "personifies" man who had everything, and lost it in the fall. In fact the very language, "perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created," clearly harkens back to the creation of Adam.

Genesis 5:1-2

• "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
• Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created."

So again, it all points to the King of Tyrus as a representation of fallen Man, not of an angel nor Satan. Adam walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire and had no reason to hide from God before the fall. All these things which God speaks of concerning the King of Tyrus, applies to Adam before the fall. He was the very image of God (cherub) from the day that he was created, till iniquity was found in him. And by the multitude of his iniquity is there violence, and he has sinned, and therefore will God cast him as profane out of His Mountain. When God says, "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus," it is a lamentation for man, not for Satan, nor for fallen angels. When God says, "I will destroy thee, O covering Cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire," it speaks of the judgment of man, and how He is come under the wrath of God.

And so the support for the Cherub being an angel is not really as sound as many people might think. The symbolic image of the Cherubim, that John, Isaiah and Ezekiel saw, were a pictorial figure of the glory of God. And the Ark of the Covenant, the Mercy Seat, and Lord, dwelling with the Cherubim, illustrated that the tabernacle of God is with men, not the angels! And that He would dwell with them, and they would be his people, and He their God. It's the personal relationship of the Creator, to His people who are His messengers (angels).

Selah!

LOL. Adam was not an angel or is he in hell.

 

[PinSeeker]

@TribulationSigns is right, @WPM. No, Cain is not the devil... <smile> ...and I'm, uh, pretty surrrrrre... <chuckles> ...TS is not postulating or asserting that... The origin of evil we cannot know. One thing we do know, because John tells us in John 1:2-3, is that Jesus "was in the beginning with God... and ...all things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made."

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

...prophets don't prophesy about past events, they prophesy about events in the future.

Only sometimes. Mostly they prophesy about the present, about very present issues and things. Now, they will also apply and will be applicable to folks future to them, but still, mostly about present things... ever-present things in this world in that sense.

Grace and peace to you, David.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Satan and his demons.....are a fact. Not just a cardboard cutout that we can blame for tempting us.

Tell us honestly: do you actually know what a demon or devil is in the KJV? Do you really believe it is some created supernatural being that once lived in heaven, rebelled with Satan, and now floats around possessing people? The answer is no. That idea has been drilled into people by Sunday School traditions, Hollywood movies, and religious imagination — not by rightly dividing Scripture.

The “demons” are unregenerate people under the spirit of Satan, passed down from Eve and Adam — the spirit of the adversary, the spirit of rebellion, the spirit of bondage to sin. They are enslaved to their own corrupt spirit, which keeps them captive in Satan’s spiritual kingdom.

When a person is truly saved by Christ, that spirit is literally CAST OUT. This is what Christ’s miracles of casting out devils SIGNIFIED spiritually. The miracles pointed to deliverance from the bondage of sin and rebellion — not to some tiny monster living inside a person causing green vomit, spinning heads, or Hollywood-style exorcisms.

No. It is man’s own rebellious spirit that drives wickedness, lies, hatred, murder, adultery, and every evil work. You guys need to understand that Satan rules through the sinful flesh and the rebellious heart. But through Christ, we are loosed from that bondage and translated into His kingdom.

In the Spirit of Christ, the old rebellious spirit no longer reigns over us. THAT is the true casting out of devils. THAT is the real deliverance.

@rwb

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So, the devil, is now Cain? LOL. Talk about delusional! In an earlier post you had him as Adam. LOL.

LOL! He can't seem to make up his mind which false belief he wants to choose. I don't recall either Adam or Cain being described as the the devil or the King of Tyrus. LOL!

You guys are growing more and more ridiculous by the post. No one takes you and your teaching Tony serious. You are cranks.

They might as well start talking about believing in aliens, Big Foot and the Loch Ness Monster at this point. Those things have the same amount of believability as their nonsense.

I showed you "the beginning" in Scripture relates to the formation of the creation. You ducked around that. Well, hello, Cain was not found then.

Yep. It's no wonder that he would not want to address this since it so clearly refutes his beliefs.

We was born later. Yet, the real demonic Satan is alive and kicking and tempting a perfect Adam and Eve in the Garden (before the Fall and before Cain). You are tying yourself in knots with your convoluted nonsense.

Satan laughs at anyone who denies that he exists. It's all the easier for him to deceive people if they don't even believe he exists. Who is going to care about putting on the armor of God so that they can stand against the schemes of the devil (Ephesians 6:11) if they don't even believe that the devil exists?

 

[Grailhunter]

Tell us honestly: do you actually know what a demon or devil is in the KJV? Do you really believe it is some created supernatural being that once lived in heaven, rebelled with Satan, and now floats around possessing people? The answer is no. That idea has been drilled into people by Sunday School traditions, Hollywood movies, and religious imagination — not by rightly dividing Scripture.

The “demons” are unregenerate people under the spirit of Satan, passed down from Eve and Adam — the spirit of the adversary, the spirit of rebellion, the spirit of bondage to sin. They are enslaved to their own corrupt spirit, which keeps them captive in Satan’s spiritual kingdom.

When a person is truly saved by Christ, that spirit is literally CAST OUT. This is what Christ’s miracles of casting out devils SIGNIFIED spiritually. The miracles pointed to deliverance from the bondage of sin and rebellion — not to some tiny monster living inside a person causing green vomit, spinning heads, or Hollywood-style exorcisms.

No. It is man’s own rebellious spirit that drives wickedness, lies, hatred, murder, adultery, and every evil work. You guys need to understand that Satan rules through the sinful flesh and the rebellious heart. But through Christ, we are loosed from that bondage and translated into His kingdom.

In the Spirit of Christ, the old rebellious spirit no longer reigns over us. THAT is the true casting out of devils. THAT is the real deliverance.

@rwb

Well I do not agree. But that is OK.
Satan and his fellow angels are fallen angels that were active in biblical times and today.
Not spirits not ghosts....entities.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@TribulationSigns is right, @WPM. No, Cain is not the devil... <smile> ...and I'm, uh, pretty surrrrrre... <chuckles> ...TS is not postulating or asserting that..

Yes, he is asserting that. You must not have read what he actually said. Here is what he said:

John 8:44

• "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth,
• because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

Who was a murderer and liar from the beginning? Cain, a man, with the spirit of disobedience? Carnal man, with a spirit he was born with? Yes, but not a angelic super being that possessed him later on. He got this spirit from his mother, Eve, who was disobedience when she was deceived herself by her own spirit which is called, guess what? Satan, that old serpent! Not physical snake that she talked with. She was deceived herself with her own thoughts, temptation and was in rebellion even before she took the bite! This was how Satan begun! God did not create that spirit in her! Selah!

First, he referenced a passage referring to the devil as a murderer and liar from the beginning and then he asked "Who was a murderer and liar from the beginning?". So, he was basically asking who is the devil since it says the devil was a murderer and liar from the beginning. And his answer to that question is "Cain, a man, with the spirit of disobedience". So, he did indeed assert that Cain is the devil. And he also asserted that Eve was the devil. He asserts that the spirit of all people is the devil rather than acknowledging that Satan was a created spirit being who exists separately from human beings. Do you agree with him?

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes, he is asserting that. You must not have read what he actually said.

Okay, fine. Whatever.

Do you agree with him?

No, not in the sense that Cain was Satan himself. Of course not.

But... <chuckles> Ohhhhh, you'll love this... and you might even agree, but no matter either way... in the same sense of what Jesus said of Judas in John 6:70, yes. And I'm pretty sure he meant it in that sense exactly... <smile> Anyway, in that sense, absolutely, he did indeed have a spirit of disobedience, and not the spirit given to us by God, with which we then walk in obedience:

• as in Ezekiel 11:19-20 ~ "a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep My rules and obey them"
• and as in Ezekiel 36:26-27 ~ "I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey My rules").

But the spirit of disobedience... That's true of all unbelievers, all those whose will is to do the desires of their father, the devil, as in John 8:44.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, not in the sense that Cain was Satan himself. Of course not.

But... <chuckles> Ohhhhh, you'll love this... and you might even agree, but no matter either way... in the same sense of what Jesus said of Judas in John 6:70, yes. And I'm pretty sure he meant it in that sense exactly... <smile>

But, he's not just saying that. He denies the existence of a created spirit being called the devil and named Satan, so he denies that Adam and Eve and Cain were tempted by the created spirit being named Satan and instead says they were tempted by their own spirits that he thinks are referred to as the devil or Satan.

Anyway, in that sense, absolutely, he did indeed have a spirit of disobedience, and not the spirit given to us by God, with which we then walk in obedience:

• as in Ezekiel 11:19-20 ~ "a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep My rules and obey them"
• and as in Ezekiel 36:26-27 ~ "I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey My rules").

But the spirit of disobedience... That's true of all unbelievers, all those whose will is to do the desires of their father, the devil, as in John 8:44.

Of course, but that's not what is being debated in this thread.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Well I do not agree.

Not surprised.

Satan and his fellow angels are fallen angels that were active in biblical times and today.

False.

Not spirits not ghosts....entities.

Another false. It is a fallen spirit of man. NOT created entities. That's it.

 

[PinSeeker]

But, he's not just saying that.

Okay, whatever.

He denies the existence of a created spirit being called the devil and named Satan, so he denies that Adam and Eve and Cain were tempted by the created spirit being named Satan and instead says they were tempted by their own spirits that he thinks are referred to as the devil or Satan.

Happy fighting. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[TribulationSigns]

But, he's not just saying that. He denies the existence of a created spirit being called the devil and named Satan, so he denies that Adam and Eve and Cain were tempted by the created spirit being named Satan and instead says they were tempted by their own spirits that he thinks are referred to as the devil or Satan.

Joh 6:70-71
(70) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
(71) He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Was one of the living human disciples a devil? Was one of the "men" Christ choose, a devil? Christ plainly calls Judas a devil. Because he has a adversary spirit - the same spirit that was passed down from Cain. He is a thief and a betrayer of Christ.

Not because of a fallen created angelic being possessing him.

 

[PinSeeker]

What are your beliefs about the devil, @TribulationSigns ? Set the record straight. <smile> You know, instead of having words put in your mouth, which nobody likes? <chuckles>

Grace and peace.

 

[TribulationSigns]

LOL. Adam was not an angel or is he in hell.

You completely missed the point of what I wrote. I never said Adam was an angel, and I never said Adam is in hell. That response only proves you reacted emotionally instead of actually reading carefully.

The comparison in Ezekiel 28 is about representation, imagery, exaltation, fall, and corruption — not about Adam literally being an angelic creature. Adam was the original man created in perfection, placed in Eden, and then fell into sin. The king of Tyrus is being described with language that points back to that pattern of pride and downfall.

Instead of addressing the actual argument, you mocked a claim I never made. That is the definition of a strawman argument.

Read slower. Listen first. Then respond to what was actually said, not to assumptions in your own mind.

 

[TribulationSigns]

What are your beliefs about the devil, @TribulationSigns ? Set the record straight. <smile> You know, instead of having words put in your mouth, which nobody likes? <chuckles>

Grace and peace.

You have been here long enough to know my position already, but I will make it plain again. Short and sweet. <smile>

I do not believe Satan, the devil, demons, or Lucifer are separate fallen angelic creatures created before mankind. Scripture shows the adversary is tied to the fallen nature and spirit of man. Christ said to Peter, “Get thee behind me, Satan” and called Judas “a devil” while both were living men. Men are called children of the devil because they walk according to the lusts of the flesh and the spirit of disobedience. Their own rebellion spirit which God called Satan!

The unregenerate man is the enemy of God until he is born again by the Spirit. That is the biblical position I hold.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Okay, whatever.

Happy fighting. <smile>

Yes, when people don't care they take the time to share their opinions and let everyone know that they don't care. Right? LOL! You are funny. There's so many comedians on this forum who work for free.