Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[Spiritual Israelite]

Joh 6:70-71
(70) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
(71) He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Was one of the living human disciples a devil? Was one of the "men" Christ choose, a devil? Christ plainly calls Judas a devil. Because he has a adversary spirit - the same spirit that was passed down from Cain. He is a thief and a betrayer of Christ.

Not because of a fallen created angelic being possessing him.

Somehow Judas being called "A devil" means he represents "THE devil" who is called Satan? You are acting as if Judas was called "THE devil", but he was not. Also, he was called that figuratively, not literally. Yet, other scripture talks about devils (demons) literally possessing people and talks about them as being separate beings from human beings. But, you won't acknowledge that. If the devil represents the spirit of man, as you say, then how did one person have many demons (devils) or unclean spirits in them? That would not be possible in that case since each person only has one spirit.

Mark 5:1 Then they came to the other side of the sea, to the country of the Gadarenes. 2 And when He had come out of the boat, immediately there met Him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no one could bind him, not even with chains, 4 because he had often been bound with shackles and chains. And the chains had been pulled apart by him, and the shackles broken in pieces; neither could anyone tame him. 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains and in the tombs, crying out and cutting himself with stones. 6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him. 7 And he cried out with a loud voice and said, “What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God that You do not torment me.” 8 For He said to him, “Come out of the man, unclean spirit!” 9 Then He asked him, “What is your name?” And he answered, saying, “My name is Legion; for we are many.”

So, one of the many spirits inside the man was talking to Jesus and he revealed that he was just one of many unclean spirits within the man. Your understanding of the devil as representing the unclean spirit of man cannot be true because that would not allow for one man to have many unclean spirits in him as this man did. This shows that demons/devils/unclean spirits are separate beings from human beings, but you won't acknowledge that.

Tell me how this man that Jesus told the unclean spirit to come out of had super strength to the point that he was able to break the chains and shackles that were put on him? Your view can't explain that, but the view that says he had many unclean spirit beings in him explains it easily because they gave him strength beyond his natural human strength.

Tell me why Jesus would tell an unclean spirit to come out of a man if it refers to the spirit of man? Our spirits are part of who we are and can't come out of us. That would be like thinking that your soul could just come out of you by command.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What are your beliefs about the devil, @TribulationSigns ? Set the record straight. <smile> You know, instead of having words put in your mouth, which nobody likes? <chuckles>

Unlike you, those who are refuting his beliefs about that have actually read his posts and know what he believes, so no one is putting words in his mouth.

 

[PinSeeker]

You have been here long enough to know my position already, but I will make it plain again. Short and sweet. <smile>

No need for me, personally, but I just wanted you to explicitly state your position. Without somebody else putting words in your mouth.

I do not believe Satan, the devil, demons, or Lucifer are separate fallen angelic creatures created before mankind. Scripture shows the adversary is tied to the fallen nature and spirit of man. Christ said to Peter, “Get thee behind me, Satan” and called Judas “a devil” while both were living men. Men are called children of the devil because they walk according to the lusts of the flesh and the spirit of disobedience. Their own rebellion spirit which God called Satan!

Oooo....kaaaaayyyy... but you don't actually "den(y) the existence of ...the devil (Satan)" and you don't "den(y) that Adam and Eve... were tempted by... Satan," and you don't "say they were tempted by their own spirits that (you supposedly) think are the devil or Satan." Right? Or do you?

And just to be clear, I don't really care either way. My real intent is, well, exposing as absurd some of the things mean-spiritedly foisted on people on this forum.

The unregenerate man is the enemy of God until he is born again by the Spirit. That is the biblical position I hold.

Sure. At enmity with God.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I don't really care either way.

Okay, move on then.

 

[Grailhunter]

Not surprised.



False.



Another false. It is a fallen spirit of man. That's it.

You need to go ahead and write your own Bible, because too many actual scriptures stand against you.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You need to go ahead and write your own Bible, because too many actual scriptures stand against you.

Like what Scripture?

 

[Grailhunter]

Like what Scripture?

All of them. It is the only way you will find an overall support for what you believe.

 

[TribulationSigns]

All of them. It is the only way you will find an overall support for what you believe.

No, you said, “too many actual Scriptures stand against you.” So then quote the Scriptures you think contradict my position instead of just making claims.

 

[WPM]

You completely missed the point of what I wrote. I never said Adam was an angel, and I never said Adam is in hell. That response only proves you reacted emotionally instead of actually reading carefully.

The comparison in Ezekiel 28 is about representation, imagery, exaltation, fall, and corruption — not about Adam literally being an angelic creature. Adam was the original man created in perfection, placed in Eden, and then fell into sin. The king of Tyrus is being described with language that points back to that pattern of pride and downfall.

Instead of addressing the actual argument, you mocked a claim I never made. That is the definition of a strawman argument.

Read slower. Listen first. Then respond to what was actually said, not to assumptions in your own mind.

You are all over the place. You do not seem to know what you believe. That is because you are promoting error. Neither the king of Tyrus, Cain or Adam fulfil the detail described in in Ezekiel 28. Only Satan meets it.

 

[WPM]

Okay, whatever.

Happy fighting. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

Why engage then? So, it is not important whether Satan is a real entity or not, whether angels exist and whether demons are true? Scripture is irrelevant.

 

[Grailhunter]

No, you said, “too many actual Scriptures stand against you.” So then quote the Scriptures you think contradict my position instead of just making claims.

Well that is pretty easy. Keep in mind that these scriptures do not refer to Satan as a spirit, usually as the devil or he or him.
1. Most people believe that the talking snake in Paradise was Satan.
2 Then you have the book of Job.
3. Among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme. 1st Timothy 1:20
4. Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 1st Peter 5:8
5. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 1st John 3:8
6. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:44
7. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 2nd Corinthians 7:14
8. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. James 4:7
9. But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 2nd Corinthians 11:3
10. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. Ephesians 6:11
11. And they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. 2nd Timothy 2:26
12. Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.” Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’ Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’ Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.” Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’ Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him. Matthew 4:1-11
13. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 1st Corinthians 7:5
14. To open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’ Act 26:18
15. But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” Jude 1:9
16. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Revelation 12:9
17. And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

NOW IT IS YOUR TURN....

 

[PinSeeker]

Okay, move on then.

<eye roll>

Wow. Yeah. I mean... dude. I think some posters on here need to get a life. <smile> Yeah, I'm headed to the golf course. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

So, it is not important whether Satan is a real entity or not, whether angels exist and whether demons are true? Scripture is irrelevant.

That's so not what I said or implied. All I was saying in that ~ to @TribulationSigns and not you or anybody else ~ is that really, what his opinion on these things is doesn't really matter to me one way or the other... and that I am just a bit curious what he would say, so in that sense I do care... and that I'm not going to argue about it.

Maybe you are familiar with HTML hashtags... or maybe not, but you'll understand:

<whiney, mocking tone> "Scripture is irrelevant..." </whiney, mocking tone>​

Come on, man. So yeah, case in point: It's kind of the same thing, actually, with you and @TribulationSigns ...and others here, apparently, that you just can't help being bitter, angry, petulant, whiney, argumentative... and some other not-so-good things... about... something... It just seems to say some... again, not-so-good things... <raised eyebrows> ...about character and what's really going on inside the hearts of some of the folks here. Hey, we're all sinners, but come on, man. To your "irrelevant" comment, do some folks here consider what Paul says to us in 1 Corinthians 13 irrelevant? Or Ephesians 4:13... "Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear"...? It very often surely seems like it...

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, WPM. And all.

 

[WPM]

That's so not what I said or implied. All I was saying in that ~ to @TribulationSigns and not you or anybody else ~ is that really, what his opinion on these things is doesn't really matter to me one way or the other... and that I am just a bit curious what he would say, so in that sense I do care... and that I'm not going to argue about it.

Maybe you are familiar with HTML hashtags... or maybe not, but you'll understand:

<whiney, mocking tone> "Scripture is irrelevant..." </whiney, mocking tone>​

Come on, man. So yeah, case in point: It's kind of the same thing, actually, with you and @TribulationSigns ...and others here, apparently, that you just can't help being bitter, angry, petulant, whiney, argumentative... and some other not-so-good things... about... something... It just seems to say some... again, not-so-good things... <raised eyebrows> ...about character and what's really going on inside the hearts of some of the folks here. Hey, we're all sinners, but come on, man. To your "irrelevant" comment, do some folks here consider what Paul says to us in 1 Corinthians 13 irrelevant? Or Ephesians 4:13... "Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear"...? It very often surely seems like it...

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, WPM. And all.

So, when Jesus rebuked the religious of his day in Matt 23 would you consider that "corrupting talk" that was not "good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear"...? when Jesus rebuked Peter calling him Satan would you consider that "corrupting talk" that was not "good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear"...? Just curious.

 

[William Barton]

You trust Google’s search results over the Word of God when trying to understand who the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 are? That is a dangerous exchange of authority. Scripture must interpret Scripture—not algorithms, opinions, or popular AI summaries.

Tsk, tsk. You consider yourself as Hebrew/Greek expert yet you are letting external sources sit in judgment over God’s Word instead of letting God’s Word speak for itself. Ouches!

I am certainly not a Hebrew/Greek expert at all, I simply believe access to the original language is beneficial. And yes I think the ideas of others are valuable.

 

[PinSeeker]

So, when Jesus rebuked the religious of his day in Matt 23 would you consider that "corrupting talk" that was not "good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear"...? when Jesus rebuked Peter calling him Satan would you consider that "corrupting talk" that was not "good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear"...? Just curious.

<eye roll>

Grace and peace to you, WPM.

 

[WPM]

<eye roll>

Grace and peace to you, WPM.

Was that too hard to answer?

 

[TribulationSigns]

And yes I think the ideas of others are valuable.

Valuable? Think God agrees with you? Let read HIS WORD... in BOLD:

“Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.”
— John 17:17​

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“All scripture is given by inspiration of God…”
— 2 Timothy 3:16–17​

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“Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.”
— Psalm 119:105​

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“Forever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.”
— Psalm 119:89​

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men… and not after Christ.”
— Colossians 2:8​

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“Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.”
— Proverbs 3:5​

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“Let God be true, but every man a liar…”
— Romans 3:4​

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“Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God…”
— 2 Corinthians 10:5​

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“Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it…”
— Deuteronomy 4:2​

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“Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”
— Proverbs 30:6​

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“If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues…”
— Revelation 22:18–19​

Therefore, AI summaries, commentaries, pastors, traditions, and personal opinions can be useful tools, but they must never replace Scripture itself. Every teaching should be tested against God’s Word because Scripture is the final authority.

We should be like the Bereans:​

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“They received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
— Acts 17:11

Enough said!​

 

[Grailhunter]

So, when Jesus rebuked the religious of his day in Matt 23 would you consider that "corrupting talk" that was not "good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear"...? when Jesus rebuked Peter calling him Satan would you consider that "corrupting talk" that was not "good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear"...? Just curious.

You are not the only one that is curious.
Today people study the Bible to learn about Christianity.
2000 years ago......a different time period, different circumstances.....
They had no Bibles and only maybe a few scriptures they heard and if they could write, had jotted them down.
They learnt about Christianity by listening to Christ, or the Apostles, or disciples or the Overseers of congregations.
No one back talked Christ, or the Apostles, or the Overseers.
Back then it was more about the spirit of Christianity....the attitude.....the love for one another.
They did not debate each other....back then it was considered rude.

For the first three centuries Christianity was a renegade religion. Not speaking of it in public and meeting at night in hiding. They would meet in people's houses "called house churches" they would meet in catacombs and caves and out in the wilderness. Services were organized around food and wine. The men at the table, the women off tending to babies and kids. (Interesting fact; This custom of men at the table lasted until the 20th century.) They would eat and drink and listen to the Overseer give a sermon sing hymns quietly....not sure how they did that. But no debate.....they would listen to the Overseer and learn.

No church buildings until after 312 AD. Until then they were hiding from the Romans and the Jews.
And then church services changed......it became a worship service with a sermon. They were told what to believe, because at that point one belief was mandated by the Emperor. They were told what to believe and eventually they were told things that if you did not believe.....they would kill you.

So, why did they not debate? It was thought you had to be "qualified" to speak the scriptures. Overseers were "ordained" by Apostles or disciples in secession. And then at some point Overseers ordained Overseers.

Put then the Protestant reform and then people could have Bibles in their hands. And the debates commenced. Unqualified people debating starting denominations and then thousands and thousands of denominations sprang up all over the world. Very few started by educated people and in fact to this day Christian education and even education itself is considered a negative by many Christians.

Anyway, so back then it was a good thing for Yeshua and Apostles to take on the unbelievers.

 

[PinSeeker]

Was that too hard to answer?

I gave it the answer it deserved. It was non sequitur. And a defense mechanism of some sort on your part, I guess. And just more of what I was talking about a couple of posts ago.

Grace and peace to you.