Hi James,
Trying to pare this down . . . I wrote a first draft reply, attempting brevity, and ended up with 3 pages! So, trying to just hit the main points, I'll give the point you are making as I understand it, your specific support, and my reply. It will still probibly end up too long!
1. Exceptions to the Sabbath Law are allowed.
Your assertion – Carrying his bed, picking corn, demonstrate that exceptions were allowed. We look at Jesus as the guide to how to keep the Sabbath.
My reply – Jesus is not recorded as doing his carpentry on the Sabbath. This is a different level of activity. Manna, the sabbatical year, these demonstrate God's supernatural provision to allow His law to be kept. It was the seventh day that was holy, not other days, and the exceptions did not include one's regular daily employment, excepting the priests.
2. The Law was not clearly laid out.
Your assertion – Jesus was accused of violating the Sabbath, therefore the the Sabbath Law was not so cut and dried.
My reply – this is non-sequitor. Though the Pharisees mis-interpretted and added to the Law, that does not mean the original law was difficult to understand.
Your citation:
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Of course we need to look at the context, but even so, this is an example of how they added what God had not said.
But this does not give us license to treat the Sabbath as a regular Work Day.
3. Jesus demonstrates “a degree of liberty” in exactly how we obey the Law without actually breaking it.
Your assertion – The Holy Spirit lets us know which “technical violations” of the Law are permissible. Also, Jesus changed parts of the Law.
My reply – The Bible itself tells us that the Law was a covenant between Israel and God, and as a Gentile, I was never a part of that covenant.
That aside, The Spirit tells me that keeping the Sabbath is not needed, because it is a shadow of Christ, but now, having Christ Himself, I no longer need the shadow. My actual sabbath rest is to rest from all of my works, since by works of Law I am not made righteous. I am made righteous in Christ.
Now, whether or not you agree with this last part, how can you deny that the Spirit speaks to me as He speaks to you?
4. Jesus' example supercedes Moses or Paul. Jesus removed the death penalty for adultery by not enforcing it upon the woman caught.
Your assertion – Jesus pardoned her sin instead of exacting the death penalty, therefore the death penalty for adultery under the Mosaic Covenant was abrogated, at least temporarily.
My reply – The death penalty for adultery under the Mosaic covenant never was given for the gentiles.
Secondarily, Jesus did not say that the penalty for adultery under the Mosaic Covenant was no longer to be death. He said, “neither do I condemn you”. There is a difference. In once case, the Law is changed. In the other case, the Law is dismissed. He could have condemned her according to the Law, and the condemnation would have been written in the Book, He would not have to even say it. However, He simply did not condemn her.
This is in keeping with 2 Cor 5, God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them.
Also, if we are correctly interpreting, the Scriptures will complement, not conflict. Jesus will always agree with both Moses and Paul if correctly understood.
5. The Law is good if a man use it lawfully.
Your assertion – by Paul's statement, we should embrace the Mosaic Covenant Law.
My reply – is the rest of the passage:
1 Timothy 1:8-11 LITV
(8) And we know that the Law is good, if anyone uses it lawfully,
(9) knowing this, that Law is not laid down for a righteous one, but for lawless and undisciplined ones, for ungodly and sinful ones, for unholy and profane ones, for slayers of fathers and slayers of mothers, for murderers,
(10) for fornicators, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and if any other thing opposes sound doctrine,
(11) according to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I was entrusted.
Another passage for clarity:
Ephesians 4:24 LITV
(24) and to put on the new man, which according to (that is, patterned after) God was created in righteousness and true holiness.
The Law was not laid down for a righteous one. Our new creation – the new person we are, was created in God's pattern, in righteousness and true holiness.
6. You and I are actually in nearer agreement than may appear.
Your assertion – Walking in the Spirit actually makes us want to please the Father, which leads us to want to keep the 10 commandments.
My reply – We are diametrically opposite.
Exodus 24:1-8 LITV
(1) And He said to Moses, Come up to YHWH, you and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy from the elders of Israel. And bow yourselves from a distance.
(2) And let Moses approach by himself to YHWH, and they shall not approach. And the people shall not go up with him.
(3) And Moses came and told all the words of YHWH to the people, and all the judgments. And all the people answered with one voice and said, We will do all the Words which YHWH has spoken.
(4) And Moses wrote all the Words of YHWH. And he rose early in the morning and built an altar below the mountain, and twelve memorial pillars for the twelve tribes of Israel.
(5) And he sent young men of the sons of Israel. And they offered up burnt offerings, and offered sacrifices of bulls, peace offerings to YHWH.
(6) And Moses took half of the blood, and he put it in basins. And he sprinkled half of the blood on the altar.
(7) And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the ears of the people. And they said, We will do all that YHWH has spoken, and we will hear.
(8) And Moses took the blood and sprinkled on the people, and said, Behold, the blood of the covenant which YHWH has cut with you concerning these words.
The Law was a covenant between God and Israel.
Deuteronomy 4:13 LITV
(13) And He declared His covenant to you which He has commanded you to do, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.
The ten commandments are specifically named as a covenant between God and Israel. We are under a different covenant.
Your view is a mixture of the Old and New Covenants, however, the New has replaced the Old.
7. Keeping the Law is pragmatically good, as God blesses us for our obedience.
Your assertion – If you keep the commandments, you don't suffer the consequences of not, such as STD, jail, a guilty conscience.
My reply – A man reaps as he sows. There are natural consequences of certain actions and behaviors. A lack of those consequences as a result of abstention is not necessarily equal to actively being blessed for obedience. Not to mention, blessings for obedience was specifically according to the Covanant of Law. Under the New Covenant, we receive our blessings in Christ.
There is another aspect to this topic as regards reaping and sowing. If we sow certain thoughts, we reap certain perceptions and attitudes. Trying to live in 2 worlds is not the best thing for us as New Covenant Believers.
8. While parts of the Law were abrogated, we come under the remaining parts being grafted into Israel.
Your assertion – Many portions of the Law have been eliminated or modified. The 10 commandments remain as a benefit to us. Being grafted into Israel, we come under that remaining portion of the Old Covenant (I realize this is not exactly what you stated, however, I believe it is what is required if your words are to stand.)
My reply – We are grafted into Abraham, not Israel. Moreover, the Bible affirms in several places that the Law is a unit, you cannot subdivide it.
9. We are to study the Bible, observe Christ's example, and follow our heart for how exactly to keep the law.
Your assertion – While we are bound to keep the Law, we have a flexibility in exactly how. For you, the feasts seem preferable to the Catholic holidays. Eating Kosher is better for you. Other parts of the law simply don't apply to your particular lifestyle.
My reply – This is where I find the least disagreement between us. We are free to keep any of the Laws we want to. We have complete liberty in this. If you want to eat Kosher, just remind me if I ever have the pleasure of inviting you to my home for a meal.
And . . . last, certainly not least . . .
10. I am of Paul, and you are of Christ.
Your assertion – I follow a misguided conception of Paul's writings, while Christ gave the true example in His life on earth.
My reply – Paul and Christ are not divided. They are in agreement, if correctly understood. Paul is considered to have possessed one of the finest minds of his time, being judged solely by his writings. Now, we know the Holy Spirit was the true Author, the point is, it is widely recognized that Paul's writings are very high level, high quality communication. Greek is a very precise language. Paul made very plain statements.
But not just Paul. James, and Peter also. And the fact is, the New Covenant began at Christ's death. Jesus lived His earthly life under the Mosaic Covenant of Law, and fulfilled it. That covenant was replaced. That Jesus lived under, and kept the Mosaic Covenant Law does not mean that we are under that same covenant. It was the whole point of His death, to replace the Ministry of death with the ministry of righteousness.
Love in Christ,
Mark
Trying to pare this down . . . I wrote a first draft reply, attempting brevity, and ended up with 3 pages! So, trying to just hit the main points, I'll give the point you are making as I understand it, your specific support, and my reply. It will still probibly end up too long!
1. Exceptions to the Sabbath Law are allowed.
Your assertion – Carrying his bed, picking corn, demonstrate that exceptions were allowed. We look at Jesus as the guide to how to keep the Sabbath.
My reply – Jesus is not recorded as doing his carpentry on the Sabbath. This is a different level of activity. Manna, the sabbatical year, these demonstrate God's supernatural provision to allow His law to be kept. It was the seventh day that was holy, not other days, and the exceptions did not include one's regular daily employment, excepting the priests.
2. The Law was not clearly laid out.
Your assertion – Jesus was accused of violating the Sabbath, therefore the the Sabbath Law was not so cut and dried.
My reply – this is non-sequitor. Though the Pharisees mis-interpretted and added to the Law, that does not mean the original law was difficult to understand.
Your citation:
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Of course we need to look at the context, but even so, this is an example of how they added what God had not said.
But this does not give us license to treat the Sabbath as a regular Work Day.
3. Jesus demonstrates “a degree of liberty” in exactly how we obey the Law without actually breaking it.
Your assertion – The Holy Spirit lets us know which “technical violations” of the Law are permissible. Also, Jesus changed parts of the Law.
My reply – The Bible itself tells us that the Law was a covenant between Israel and God, and as a Gentile, I was never a part of that covenant.
That aside, The Spirit tells me that keeping the Sabbath is not needed, because it is a shadow of Christ, but now, having Christ Himself, I no longer need the shadow. My actual sabbath rest is to rest from all of my works, since by works of Law I am not made righteous. I am made righteous in Christ.
Now, whether or not you agree with this last part, how can you deny that the Spirit speaks to me as He speaks to you?
4. Jesus' example supercedes Moses or Paul. Jesus removed the death penalty for adultery by not enforcing it upon the woman caught.
Your assertion – Jesus pardoned her sin instead of exacting the death penalty, therefore the death penalty for adultery under the Mosaic Covenant was abrogated, at least temporarily.
My reply – The death penalty for adultery under the Mosaic covenant never was given for the gentiles.
Secondarily, Jesus did not say that the penalty for adultery under the Mosaic Covenant was no longer to be death. He said, “neither do I condemn you”. There is a difference. In once case, the Law is changed. In the other case, the Law is dismissed. He could have condemned her according to the Law, and the condemnation would have been written in the Book, He would not have to even say it. However, He simply did not condemn her.
This is in keeping with 2 Cor 5, God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them.
Also, if we are correctly interpreting, the Scriptures will complement, not conflict. Jesus will always agree with both Moses and Paul if correctly understood.
5. The Law is good if a man use it lawfully.
Your assertion – by Paul's statement, we should embrace the Mosaic Covenant Law.
My reply – is the rest of the passage:
1 Timothy 1:8-11 LITV
(8) And we know that the Law is good, if anyone uses it lawfully,
(9) knowing this, that Law is not laid down for a righteous one, but for lawless and undisciplined ones, for ungodly and sinful ones, for unholy and profane ones, for slayers of fathers and slayers of mothers, for murderers,
(10) for fornicators, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and if any other thing opposes sound doctrine,
(11) according to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I was entrusted.
Another passage for clarity:
Ephesians 4:24 LITV
(24) and to put on the new man, which according to (that is, patterned after) God was created in righteousness and true holiness.
The Law was not laid down for a righteous one. Our new creation – the new person we are, was created in God's pattern, in righteousness and true holiness.
6. You and I are actually in nearer agreement than may appear.
Your assertion – Walking in the Spirit actually makes us want to please the Father, which leads us to want to keep the 10 commandments.
My reply – We are diametrically opposite.
Exodus 24:1-8 LITV
(1) And He said to Moses, Come up to YHWH, you and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy from the elders of Israel. And bow yourselves from a distance.
(2) And let Moses approach by himself to YHWH, and they shall not approach. And the people shall not go up with him.
(3) And Moses came and told all the words of YHWH to the people, and all the judgments. And all the people answered with one voice and said, We will do all the Words which YHWH has spoken.
(4) And Moses wrote all the Words of YHWH. And he rose early in the morning and built an altar below the mountain, and twelve memorial pillars for the twelve tribes of Israel.
(5) And he sent young men of the sons of Israel. And they offered up burnt offerings, and offered sacrifices of bulls, peace offerings to YHWH.
(6) And Moses took half of the blood, and he put it in basins. And he sprinkled half of the blood on the altar.
(7) And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the ears of the people. And they said, We will do all that YHWH has spoken, and we will hear.
(8) And Moses took the blood and sprinkled on the people, and said, Behold, the blood of the covenant which YHWH has cut with you concerning these words.
The Law was a covenant between God and Israel.
Deuteronomy 4:13 LITV
(13) And He declared His covenant to you which He has commanded you to do, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.
The ten commandments are specifically named as a covenant between God and Israel. We are under a different covenant.
Your view is a mixture of the Old and New Covenants, however, the New has replaced the Old.
7. Keeping the Law is pragmatically good, as God blesses us for our obedience.
Your assertion – If you keep the commandments, you don't suffer the consequences of not, such as STD, jail, a guilty conscience.
My reply – A man reaps as he sows. There are natural consequences of certain actions and behaviors. A lack of those consequences as a result of abstention is not necessarily equal to actively being blessed for obedience. Not to mention, blessings for obedience was specifically according to the Covanant of Law. Under the New Covenant, we receive our blessings in Christ.
There is another aspect to this topic as regards reaping and sowing. If we sow certain thoughts, we reap certain perceptions and attitudes. Trying to live in 2 worlds is not the best thing for us as New Covenant Believers.
8. While parts of the Law were abrogated, we come under the remaining parts being grafted into Israel.
Your assertion – Many portions of the Law have been eliminated or modified. The 10 commandments remain as a benefit to us. Being grafted into Israel, we come under that remaining portion of the Old Covenant (I realize this is not exactly what you stated, however, I believe it is what is required if your words are to stand.)
My reply – We are grafted into Abraham, not Israel. Moreover, the Bible affirms in several places that the Law is a unit, you cannot subdivide it.
9. We are to study the Bible, observe Christ's example, and follow our heart for how exactly to keep the law.
Your assertion – While we are bound to keep the Law, we have a flexibility in exactly how. For you, the feasts seem preferable to the Catholic holidays. Eating Kosher is better for you. Other parts of the law simply don't apply to your particular lifestyle.
My reply – This is where I find the least disagreement between us. We are free to keep any of the Laws we want to. We have complete liberty in this. If you want to eat Kosher, just remind me if I ever have the pleasure of inviting you to my home for a meal.
And . . . last, certainly not least . . .
10. I am of Paul, and you are of Christ.
Your assertion – I follow a misguided conception of Paul's writings, while Christ gave the true example in His life on earth.
My reply – Paul and Christ are not divided. They are in agreement, if correctly understood. Paul is considered to have possessed one of the finest minds of his time, being judged solely by his writings. Now, we know the Holy Spirit was the true Author, the point is, it is widely recognized that Paul's writings are very high level, high quality communication. Greek is a very precise language. Paul made very plain statements.
But not just Paul. James, and Peter also. And the fact is, the New Covenant began at Christ's death. Jesus lived His earthly life under the Mosaic Covenant of Law, and fulfilled it. That covenant was replaced. That Jesus lived under, and kept the Mosaic Covenant Law does not mean that we are under that same covenant. It was the whole point of His death, to replace the Ministry of death with the ministry of righteousness.
Love in Christ,
Mark
