Saturday is Sabbath day...

[williemac]

My brother, James; Thank you for clarifying and confirming that resting on Saturday is not a requirement for life, unlike brother Sabitarian, who is proclaiming God's wrath on the majority of the Christian world. As well, thank you for clarifying that church meetings are not the primary purpose of the day of rest.
I have no interest in engaging in the above dispute over the interpretations of certain food related topics, but would like to reply to this one thing from #357
"Yes, our “new nature” is only a reflection of the law of God which is now written upon our hearts rather than tablets of stone. Obedience to God’s Laws becomes our new supernatural born-again nature. We are no longer under the curse of being stoned to death for disobeying the Sabbath but we should yearn to fellowship with the Father. Why not on the day He specified?"

So, why not fellowship with God every day? And where in the fourth commandment is fellowship with God mentioned? Did you not admit the purpose is rest from one's work? Why do you add fellowship with God to the commandment?

As well, I will remind you that it is only in your viewpoint that those who attend church on Sunday are disobeying the 4th commandment. This is not my viewpoint. I do not consider my Sunday church attendance to be in violation of the law.

I take my lead from Heb.4:1-10. Let’s take a look.
4 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. [sup]2 [/sup]For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them,[sup][a][/sup] not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. [sup]3 [/sup]For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’”[sup][b][/sup]
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. [sup]4 [/sup]For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; [sup][c][/sup] [sup]5 [/sup]and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”[sup][d][/sup][sup]6 [/sup]Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, [sup]7 [/sup]again He designates a certain day, saying in David,“Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:“Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”[sup][e][/sup]
[sup]8 [/sup]For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. [sup]9 [/sup]There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. [sup]10 [/sup]For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

Note that it says God’s works were finished from the foundation of the world. There is no eighth day, or following first day, when God goes back to work. It is a permanent rest from His work. And furthermore, His rest is something we enter into. I am repeating myself here, but wanted to try to make it more clear.
A valid question would be why God rested, and why the fourth commandment to rest. Typically in man’s case it becomes simply a matter of taking a day off and reaping the benefits thereof. But is this really the point?
Historically, they were seen to have failed to believe God’s promise. This was also Abraham’s initial mistake, in helping out the situation by bearing a son from a slave woman. But eventually it was seen that he believed God through his willingness to offer his miracle son on the alter, surmising that God would raise him from the dead.
These two acts of Abraham are mentioned in Gal.4:21-24, speaking of the two covenants, one by the flesh, speaking of works of law, and the other by faith in the promise.
The message is clear that the promise of God is not gained through one’s works of law but rather through one’s acceptance of God’s promise, by way of faith.
So, back to Heb.4, we see the same comparisons, that they did not receive the promise of rest because of unbelief. Do we really think that these people all disobeyed the fourth commandment? No, they were keeping the law. However, they were denied entrance into the promise of rest. The message is that the real rest is not just a day off. It is a permanent state of rest. And the conclusion in the Heb. reference is that we are to cease from our works as God did from His, in order to enter His rest. So how did God cease from His work? He finished it (vs.3).
We ought to wonder how we can enter into a promise of rest by way of works of the law. If one gains anything at all through works, then it is no longer of grace (Rom.11:6).
The fourth commandment must be therefore transformed from a work of law to a gift of grace. The only way is by faith. One therefore must cease from the attempt to gain anything from God by way of law. So we must enter in be ceasing from our work. (Heb.4:10).
It is of no consequence to me that you do not accept this revelation. However, I must protest the accusation that I am disobeying the fourth commandment. I am fully convinced that it is fulfilled in me by faith and have explained my reasons. There is no insubordination on my part in this matter.
Kindly in His grace and peace, Howie

 

[James Forthwright]

My brother, James; Thank you for clarifying and confirming that resting on Saturday is not a requirement for life, unlike brother Sabitarian, who is proclaiming God's wrath on the majority of the Christian world. As well, thank you for clarifying that church meetings are not the primary purpose of the day of rest.

You’re welcome. Though resting on the Sabbath does not determine one’s salvation, we all must stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ and account for our failures regarding following Our Savior’s example and His steadfast obedience of God’s Law. Our eternal destiny may not be at stake but the dispensing of divine eternal rewards may well be. (Matt. 13:23)

So, why not fellowship with God every day?

I do, Howie, however, the obligations of working to provide for my family and a continual barrage of other menial tasks tend to distract all our minds from spiritual pursuits. That’s why the Sabbath was created. To give us a rest and a dedicated 24 hr. period of fellowship away from the cares of this world.

And where in the fourth commandment is fellowship with God mentioned? Did you not admit the purpose is rest from one's work? Why do you add fellowship with God to the commandment?

There are many purposes of the Sabbath besides Rest for man and beast. (Exo. 34:21). For instance, as a weekly test of our obedience and our continual devotion to God’s commands (Exo. 16:4) . A sign of our covenant relationship. (Exo. 31:13) (Exo. 31:17). To instill discipline by abstaining from buying and selling and our own pleasures, worship, prayer, praise and fellowship our brethren (Num. 28:25) and with the Father (Matt. 18:20), dedicated time of scriptural study (Acts 17:2), to set us apart from the world (Eze. 20:12-24), etc.

As well, I will remind you that it is only in your viewpoint that those who attend church on Sunday are disobeying the 4th commandment. This is not my viewpoint. I do not consider my Sunday church attendance to be in violation of the law.

The Sabbath was/is/and shall ever be defined as the seventh day. There’s absolutely NOTHING wrong with Sunday church attendance or any other days church services (besides Saturday). Just that, biblically speaking, such services should not be called “the Sabbath”. Many early Christian Churches observed the seventh day Sabbath and also had meetings on Sunday.

I take my lead from Heb.4:1-10. Let’s take a look.
4 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. [sup]2 [/sup]For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them,[sup][a][/sup] not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. [sup]3 [/sup]For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’”[sup][b][/sup]
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. [sup]4 [/sup]For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; [sup][c][/sup] [sup]5 [/sup]and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”[sup][d]6 [/sup]Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, [sup]7 [/sup]again He designates a certain day, saying in David,“Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:“Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”[sup][e][/sup]
[sup]8 [/sup]For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. [sup]9 [/sup]There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. [sup]10 [/sup]For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

That’s a very fascinating scriptural paragraph but it doesn’t say anything about significant changes to the original concept of Sabbath rest. We can rest from relying on works of the Law to attain salvation (through Christ) but we are not exempt from following the Ten commandments and we all still require physical rest.

Note that it says God’s works were finished from the foundation of the world. There is no eighth day, or following first day, when God goes back to work. It is a permanent rest from His work. And furthermore, His rest is something we enter into. I am repeating myself here, but wanted to try to make it more clear.

Thanks for the clarification but we mortals must go back to work after our period of rest. You’re attempting to ‘spiritualize’ a simple concept. How come none of the other nine commandments get this special'spiritualization’ treatment?

A valid question would be why God rested, and why the fourth commandment to rest. Typically in man’s case it becomes simply a matter of taking a day off and reaping the benefits thereof. But is this really the point?

No, the point is simply obeying God’s commandments as His faithful servants.

Historically, they were seen to have failed to believe God’s promise. This was also Abraham’s initial mistake, in helping out the situation by bearing a son from a slave woman. But eventually it was seen that he believed God through his willingness to offer his miracle son on the alter, surmising that God would raise him from the dead.
These two acts of Abraham are mentioned in Gal.4:21-24, speaking of the two covenants, one by the flesh, speaking of works of law, and the other by faith in the promise.
The message is clear that the promise of God is not gained through one’s works of law but rather through one’s acceptance of God’s promise, by way of faith.

Again, we don’t obey God’s commandments to attain the promise of God. We obey because we love and desire to please Our Father and recognize that His commandments are holy, righteous decrees.

So, back to Heb.4, we see the same comparisons, that they did not receive the promise of rest because of unbelief. Do we really think that these people all disobeyed the fourth commandment? No, they were keeping the law. However, they were denied entrance into the promise of rest. The message is that the real rest is not just a day off. It is a permanent state of rest. And the conclusion in the Heb. reference is that we are to cease from our works as God did from His, in order to enter His rest. So how did God cease from His work? He finished it (vs.3).

Every adult male at the time of the Exodus with the exception of Joshua and Caleb were refused entrance into the Rest of the Promised Land because they would not trust God nor faithfully follow His commandments (including Moses, Miriam and Aaron).

The third and fourth chapters of Hebrews are quite mystical in nature and are subject to a myriad of doctrinal perceptions. You’ll need more than those few verses to convince me that the fourth commandment has been so radically changed in form and format. Jesus never stated that any of the Ten Commandments were to be altered in any way. I choose to continue to follow His perfect example and what the Holy Spirit directs me to do rather than rely on modern Christian’s ‘oh so spiritual’ interpretations re “rest”.
Old Testament or New Testament the message remains the same:

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[williemac]

Thank you for your reply, James. I don't need to reply point by point, as I accept your viewpoints for the most part. I simply don't agree with some of them. For example, you ask why one commandment is spiritualized when the others aren't, using that as an argument against not me, but a few verses in Hebrews. These are they which give the interpretation of the purpose for the commandment. Do you need more scripture? They have been shared with you. No need for me to repeat them. However, concerning the judgment seat of Christ, do you recall the passage.."forgive them for they know not what they do"? It is one thing to deliberately sin, but quite another to be in error. My protest remains, which I see you did not reply to, which is the objection to the suggestion that I am breaking the fourth commandment. I am convinced in my mind that I am keeping it.
By the way, I noticed you ended with Rev. 22:14, which suggests that they who do His commandments will be given the right to the tree of life. If this refers to the ten commandments, as you are suggesting, then you may have to retract your original agreement that resting on the sabbath does not determine the gift of eternal life. So which is it? If Rev.22:14 is speaking of the commandments from Mnt. Sinai, then salvation comes from keeping the law. Since we know better about that, then this passage must be referring to other commandments, such as those listed in 1John3:22,23. ....faith, and love for others.

Final note; you shared several passages which give several reasons for keeping the sabbath rest. My argument would be that they are added from the original commandment written on stone. However, you may wish to suggest that they simply expand on the commandment, revealing it's meaning. If that is the case, then I submit to you that Heb. 4 does the same.

In fact, in many places in the new testament, we find that the new covenenant represents a change. There has been a change in the law. It is all summed up in one word: love your neighbour. Our fruit that we bear is so much more meaningful than merely keeping law. The entire covenant has been spiritualized. Having the law in our hearts is not meant to be interpretaed as merely a desire and ability to obey the law. It is speaking of a new creation, where we have the very nature of God in our new man. He is love. We have His love poured out in our hearts (Rom.5:5) We have arrived in the promise. We are in His rest.

 

[James Forthwright]

Thank you for your reply, James. I don't need to reply point by point, as I accept your viewpoints for the most part. I simply don't agree with some of them.

Likewise.

For example, you ask why one commandment is spiritualized when the others aren't, using that as an argument against not me, but a few verses in Hebrews. These are they which give the interpretation of the purpose for the commandment. Do you need more scripture? They have been shared with you. No need for me to repeat them.

All the verses that have been shown by the non-Sabbath opposition don’t IMO counterbalance the vast plethora of scriptural evidence to the contrary or Jesus’ example. Should I follow Jesus and the saints of old or popular modern day doctrinal opinion?

However, concerning the judgment seat of Christ, do you recall the passage.."forgive them for they know not what they do"? It is one thing to deliberately sin, but quite another to be in error. My protest remains, which I see you did not reply to, which is the objection to the suggestion that I am breaking the fourth commandment. I am convinced in my mind that I am keeping it.

You don’t bother to answer my inquiries point by point. Why should I? It is not my prerogative to cast fire and brimstone at those with differing doctrinal opinions. I find traditional Sabbath observance to be truly a bountiful blessing. If you don’t want to be blessed, so be it.

 

[williemac]

Likewise.



All the verses that have been shown by the non-Sabbath opposition don’t IMO counterbalance the vast plethora of scriptural evidence to the contrary or Jesus’ example. Should I follow Jesus and the saints of old or popular modern day doctrinal opinion?

Jesus lived, preached, and taught under the old covenant. After His death and resurrection, He literally plucked Paul out of his world and hand picked him for the ministry that He called him into. All scripture is inspired of God, including the plethora of evidence that a change took place from the old to the new. Who says we are not following Jesus' example? The modern day, as you call it, is patterned after the inspired and revealed word of God.

You don’t bother to answer my inquiries point by point. Why should I?

I have in the recent past, but found it unneccesary at this point. Fair enough, I suppose.

It is not my prerogative to cast fire and brimstone at those with differing doctrinal opinions. I find traditional Sabbath observance to be truly a bountiful blessing. If you don’t want to be blessed, so be it.

I could say the same. It is a matter of perspective. Under gace I am bountifully blessed in the Spirit. I never said I don't want to be blessed. Those are your words, not mine. But thank you for not condemning those whom you feel aren't interested in being 'blessed' in the same way as yourself.

 

[James Forthwright]

Thanks for your response, Howie.

Jesus lived, preached, and taught under the old covenant.

Christ was the sinless Lamb of God who died to fulfill once and for all God’s OT Laws requiring blood sacrifices for the removal of the curse of sin upon fallen mankind. His death did NOT totally remove our obligation to continue to honor God’s moral Law (the Ten Commandments) or instantly make unclean animals clean. The NT was fashioned after the Abrahamic Covenant in which his faith was accounted for righteousness (Gal 3:6) (Gal. 3:29)

After His death and resurrection, He literally plucked Paul out of his world and hand picked him for the ministry that He called him into.

We’re all “hand –picked” of Christ. (Eph. 1:4) Jesus had also already personally chosen the twelve apostles to carry on His ministry. I truly do admire and love the apostle Paul's epistles but on some matters of the Law I prefer to follow Christ's example as well as the early Christians in Jerusalem rather than Paul's instructions to Gentile believers.

All scripture is inspired of God, including the plethora of evidence that a change took place from the old to the new. Who says we are not following Jesus' example? The modern day, as you call it, is patterned after the inspired and revealed word of God.

I’ll ask you the same question I posed in another thread. If every solitary sentence Paul wrote in his epistles is the unequivocal ‘Word of God’, why do most Christian congregations totally ignore Paul’s writings which forbid women to speak or teach in church (1Cor. 14:34) (1Tim. 2:11-12), pray without veils (1Cor. 11:5-6) (1Cor. 11:10), and never mention women being saved in child birth? (1Tim. 2:15) Why do they continue to bring their legal matters between themselves to civil courts instead of church councils as the apostle prescribed? (1Cor. 6:1-5)

I could say the same. It is a matter of perspective. Under gace (sic) I am bountifully blessed in the Spirit. I never said I don't want to be blessed. Those are your words, not mine. But thank you for not condemning those whom you feel aren't interested in being 'blessed' in the same way as yourself.

Yes, it is, largely, a matter of perspective. For many years I believed exactly as you do and accepted the popular unlimited grace teachings and did not set apart the Sabbath as the scriptures teach. Have you at least on a few occasions, observed the traditional Sabbath? How do we know another “perspective” if we never experience it?
My take on the issue is that the Jews gave the Sabbath a bad rap by adding all sorts of extra-biblical Talmudic restrictions and especially, by going around harshly judging ‘everyone else’s behavior. This in turn, caused many early Christian groups to totally abandon Sabbath observance to separate themselves or the perception that they were merely ‘another sect of the Jews’. The Sabbath can be a very enlightening experience if it is done in the right Spirit.

I have in the recent past (replied in a point-by-point fashion), but found it unneccesary at this point. Fair enough, I suppose.

Forgive me brother, Howie, I just wanted you to see how annoying and frustrating it can be when someone ignores your questions and chooses to continue to debate in monologues instead of addressing the main points your rebuttals.
You previously asked (and I purposely avoided answering):

By the way, I noticed you ended with Rev. 22:14, which suggests that they who do His commandments will be given the right to the tree of life. If this refers to the ten commandments, as you are suggesting, then you may have to retract your original agreement that resting on the sabbath does not determine the gift of eternal life. So which is it? If Rev.22:14 is speaking of the commandments from Mnt. Sinai, then salvation comes from keeping the law. Since we know better about that, then this passage must be referring to other commandments, such as those listed in 1John3:22,23. ....faith, and love for others.

A valid question. We also know that salvation is granted to all those that call in faith upon the name of the Lord (Rom. 10:9). Yet, Jesus warned that many would prophesy and would do marvelous works but be rejected from the Kingdom of God ‘depart from me, ye that work iniquity’ (Iniquity is the transgression of the law.) ‘I never knew you’. (Matt. 7:21-23). Christ, specifically stated in the same chapter that we are to bear fruit (Matt. 7:20) and hear His commandments and ‘do them’ (Matt. 7:24).

So, to answer your question more directly, though obeying the Ten Commandments does not directly grant us eternal life (that is indeed a free gift of faith and grace) continually refusing to obey God’s commands may well witness against us that our faith was not genuine.

Final note; you shared several passages which give several reasons for keeping the sabbath rest. My argument would be that they are added from the original commandment written on stone. However, you may wish to suggest that they simply expand on the commandment, revealing it's meaning. If that is the case, then I submit to you that Heb. 4 does the same.

Instead of dismissing any of the Ten Commandments, Jesus also expanded upon them, for instance:

Thou shalt not kill, adding that we are not to even be angry with our brothers.

Thou shalt not commit adultery, that we are not even to look with lust upon a woman.
As well as stiffening the written Laws concerning divorce.

Christ also never ever transgressed the Sabbath or hinted that it was to be soon come to naught but went about doing God’s work on that sacred day while demonstrating to the legalistic Pharisees some distinct liberties in the ordinances by telling the healed cripple to ‘pick up his bed and walk’ and not rebuking His disciples for merely picking a few ears of corn on the Sabbath.

In fact, in many places in the new testament, we find that the new covenenant (sic) represents a change. There has been a change in the law. It is all summed up in one word: love your neighbour. Our fruit that we bear is so much more meaningful than merely keeping law. The entire covenant has been spiritualized. Having the law in our hearts is not meant to be interpretaed (sic) as merely a desire and ability to obey the law. It is speaking of a new creation, where we have the very nature of God in our new man. He is love. We have His love poured out in our hearts (Rom.5:5) We have arrived in the promise. We are in His rest.

Yeah, that’s the ever-so-popular Beatlesque ‘All You Need Is Love’ gospel, alright. I’m sorry, Howie, but IMO it just all rings hollow and illusionary. Where’s the manifest fruit of the Spirit? If what you’re saying is true, why is the church (the Body of Christ) so weak and ineffective. Where is righteous stand against immorality and these endless campaigns of war? Why are so many Christians so utterly spineless and effeminate in nature? Why does this ‘new creature’ have such distain for the Law of God (supposedly written in their hearts)? Why do the Christian women dress so provocatively and do not humbly cover their heads in prayer? Why do so many Christian men bow before their sports idols? Why are their children so rebellious and not being instructed in the ‘ways of the Lord’. If ‘we are in His rest’ why is the divorce rate of Christians equal or greater than those of the heathen?

The Golden Rule is NOT some “new” NT commandment.

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

 

[Sabitarian]

James Farnsworth,
If keeping the Sabbath is not necessary as you say, then why has it alwasy been a bone of contention to God? Why did Christ keep this day sacred? Why was Paul trying to get back to Jerusalem for the holy Days and please do not say that he was a Jew, as Christ superceeded all of the oral traditions of the elders. And Christ was the son of God, thus only the laws of God did He obey. If Christ kept the laws of God and we are to follow Him, then it just makes sence that we follow the laws of God also. Christ gave us the laws, He kept the laws, He told us that He did not destroy any of the laws and not one jot or title would pass from the law until all is fulfilled and not all has been fulfilled, so are the laws of God Valid still? What better way to pass the Sabbath than the way Christ and Paul did in communion with like believers. If the fourth commandment is not the sign of God, then you need to state where it is in the Word. If the fourth commandment is the sign of God, then all who say they are Christians need to follow the way of Christ and commune on the Sabbath with like believers. As yet none has been able to say where first day worship has been foretold in the old teatament, now it is your turn to try to find it.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

 

[Axehead]

You don’t bother to answer my inquiries point by point. Why should I? It is not my prerogative to cast fire and brimstone at those with differing doctrinal opinions. I find traditional Sabbath observance to be truly a bountiful blessing. If you don’t want to be blessed, so be it.

Thank you! That is exactly what it is - "Traditional Sabbath Observance", not Scriptural Sabbath Observance.

No one follows Scriptural Sabbath observance - it is impossible.

Good to see that Jesus and the disciples worked on the Sabbath to get themselves some food and also helped out others. That is because mercy and love is more important than sacrifice. If a man has to work on Sunday to feed His family that is a holy thing as he is upholding his responsibilities before the Lord (who gave him the job) and taking care of his family. That is love in action. And by the way, there is no reason that he cannot be resting even while he is working. Jesus was always resting even when He was working. That is the beautiful thing about being in Christ, you can rest in Him everyday that you are working. Our rest today is an inward rest, not an outward rest. It is good to have a physical day of rest any day the week. I prefer 3 days of rest if I can get it.

Axehead

 

[James Forthwright]

James Farnsworth,

First of all, my moniker is James FORTHWRIGHT, not Farnsworth. I really don’t care but your failure to use spell check (three misspelled words in one large undivided paragraph) and getting my name wrong is just indicative of your general “care less” attitude. You seem preoccupied with persuading everyone to believe EXACTLY like you do instead of merely declaring what you believe in a peaceful orderly fashion and relying on the Holy Spirit to move on the hearts and minds of the readers.

If keeping the Sabbath is not necessary as you say, then why has it alwasy (sic) been a bone of contention to God? Why did Christ keep this day sacred? Why was Paul trying to get back to Jerusalem for the holy Days and please do not say that he was a Jew, as Christ superceeded (sic) all of the oral traditions of the elders. And Christ was the son of God, thus only the laws of God did He obey. If Christ kept the laws of God and we are to follow Him, then it just makes sence (sic) that we follow the laws of God also. Christ gave us the laws, He kept the laws, He told us that He did not destroy any of the laws and not one jot or title would pass from the law until all is fulfilled and not all has been fulfilled, so are the laws of God Valid still? What better way to pass the Sabbath than the way Christ and Paul did in communion with like believers. If the fourth commandment is not the sign of God, then you need to state where it is in the Word. If the fourth commandment is the sign of God, then all who say they are Christians need to follow the way of Christ and commune on the Sabbath with like believers. As yet none has been able to say where first day worship has been foretold in the old teatament (sic), now it is your turn to try to find it.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

You’re preaching to the choir here, Sabitarian. I honor the Sabbath (from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) each and every week for the last twelve years. Was I damned before coming to this divine Sabbath revelation? We’re on the same side here, brother. I just feel that it’s counterproductive to threaten non-Sabbath Christian believers with eternal damnation just because they have different views regarding the Fourth Commandment. As the old adage goes: you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.

Sure, we can follow Rev? Phelps example and carry large print signs like; GOD HATES SABBATH BREAKERS or TO HELL WITH LAW BREAKERS! Or maybe we can each carry a bucket of stones and cast them at Catholics and Baptists as they exit their Sunday worship mass/services. (Of course, I speak facetiously) but such offensive tactics will never win the hearts and minds of the people.

All we need to do is calmly declare the Truth and tell them of the blessedness of this sacred ancient day. Then allow the Holy Spirit to slowly bring the people of God unto the realization of their several obligations to humbly obey to His commands, and His commandments are not grievous. (1John 5:3) As fellow Sabbath-keepers, let’s work together to accomplish this worthy goal instead of criticizing one another.
---------------------------

Thank you! That is exactly what it is - "Traditional Sabbath Observance", not Scriptural Sabbath Observance.

You’re welcome, brother Axehead.

No one follows Scriptural Sabbath observance - it is impossible.

We have the scriptures to guide us on the way to perfection, and the grace and mercy of Christ Jesus to call upon when we occasionally fall short of this lofty goal.

Good to see that Jesus and the disciples worked on the Sabbath to get themselves some food and also helped out others. That is because mercy and love is more important than sacrifice.

I humbly disagree that “Jesus the disciples worked on the Sabbath to get themselves some food.” They were hardly “working” or “harvesting” as they strolled through a corn field and casually plucked a few ears. Raw corn is barely palatable and the scriptures do not hint that they lit fires and cooked these few ears of corn. They merely “rubbed” the corn silk off and had a few bites for refreshment, that wasn’t actually breaking the Sabbath. Jesus used this incident to declare to the judgmental Pharisees that there is a permissible degree of liberty concerning God’s Law. We are to walk in the Spirit of God’s Law, rather than the strict letter of the Law.

If a man has to work on Sunday to feed His family that is a holy thing as he is upholding his responsibilities before the Lord (who gave him the job) and taking care of his family. That is love in action.

I agree. Jobs are hard to come by these days and certainly an emergency triage doctor, fireman or policeman, etc., are required by their position to be available to work on each and every day. As Christians, being a wise steward in taking care of our financial and familial obligations are also very important.

And by the way, there is no reason that he cannot be resting even while he is working. Jesus was always resting even when He was working. That is the beautiful thing about being in Christ, you can rest in Him everyday that you are working. Our rest today is an inward rest, not an outward rest. It is good to have a physical day of rest any day the week. I prefer 3 days of rest if I can get it.
Axehead

I hear what you’re saying, brother. While it may be theoretically possible to ‘rest while you work’, there is nothing like having a dedicated time for physical as well as spiritual rest. And, ideally, our ‘Traditional Sabbath’ observance should mirror the scriptural example as close as humanely possible IMO. Because there are legitimate exceptions to the rule should not excuse those Christian believers who have Friday evening till Saturday evening available for a weekly dedication or ‘spiritual tithe of time’ unto our Heavenly Father.

Peace be unto you! J.F.

 

[Axehead]

I hear what you’re saying, brother. While it may be theoretically possible to ‘rest while you work’, there is nothing like having a dedicated time for physical as well as spiritual rest. And, ideally, our ‘Traditional Sabbath’ observance should mirror the scriptural example as close as humanely possible IMO. Because there are legitimate exceptions to the rule should not excuse those Christian believers who have Friday evening till Saturday evening available for a weekly dedication or ‘spiritual tithe of time’ unto our Heavenly Father.

It just sounds like you are setting yourself up to judge your brother when the Scriptures say:

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

This is the Liberty that we have from the Lord.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Do you disagree with this?

Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Can this be any clearer?
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

"One of the essential rules of the Christian life is never to ask a non-Christian to conduct himself like a Christian. If grace really renews a person; if the Christian life is already evidence of the life of someone who is in Christ; if obedience to the Christian ethic is the loving response of a recipient of grace to Him who has shown His love by bestowing grace, then how can one ask a man who has not received, or who did not know that he was under grace, to act as though . . . as though his person were renewed, as though he had experienced grace bestowed upon him, as though he knew that he was the object of God's love? The obligation placed upon him is nothing but restraint. The morality to which he submits can only be based upon the fear of punishment, and God becomes then the great condemner. That is what regularly happens in so-called Christian societies." (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do)

Sad, isn't it that this verse is not promulgated as zealously by those that push the Law of "observance of the Sabbath" onto people.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Well, there will always be Sabbath followers and in most cases it is linked to their denomination.

Axehead

 

[williemac]

Thanks for your response, Howie.



Christ was the sinless Lamb of God who died to fulfill once and for all God’s OT Laws requiring blood sacrifices for the removal of the curse of sin upon fallen mankind. His death did NOT totally remove our obligation to continue to honor God’s moral Law (the Ten Commandments) or instantly make unclean animals clean. The NT was fashioned after the Abrahamic Covenant in which his faith was accounted for righteousness (Gal 3:6) (Gal. 3:29)

Correct. However, I wonder how the 4th commandment can be a "moral" law. Was is God that made that determination? Or did man? My understanding is that morality is about how we treat others. Love does no harm to a neighbour. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the (moral) law.

We’re all “hand –picked” of Christ. (Eph. 1:4) Jesus had also already personally chosen the twelve apostles to carry on His ministry. I truly do admire and love the apostle Paul's epistles but on some matters of the Law I prefer to follow Christ's example as well as the early Christians in Jerusalem rather than Paul's instructions to Gentile believers.

Jesus Himself told them how to follow His example. He washed their feet and instructed them to do the same. His example was again; His love for mankind. He said to love Him and keep His commandments as He loved the Father and kept His commandments. This indicates that these are not the same commandments. As well, there is no indication that these mean the ten commandments. A commandment is simply something one is told to do or follow. I marvel that some will automatically assume the word always refers to the ten from Mount Sinai.

I’ll ask you the same question I posed in another thread. If every solitary sentence Paul wrote in his epistles is the unequivocal ‘Word of God’, why do most Christian congregations totally ignore Paul’s writings which forbid women to speak or teach in church (1Cor. 14:34) (1Tim. 2:11-12), pray without veils (1Cor. 11:5-6) (1Cor. 11:10), and never mention women being saved in child birth? (1Tim. 2:15) Why do they continue to bring their legal matters between themselves to civil courts instead of church councils as the apostle prescribed? (1Cor. 6:1-5)

I have also adressed this on debates concerning women in ministry. I certainly insist as well, that things must be understood in context. Those things you are pointing out were given to a specific culture in a certain time period. However, each subject should be addressed specifically. I disagree with the tactic of making this generalization in suggesting that not all of Paul's content can be considered scripture. This can be dangerous, as one can simply disregard anything one has the mind to do so on that basis.

Yes, it is, largely, a matter of perspective. For many years I believed exactly as you do and accepted the popular unlimited grace teachings and did not set apart the Sabbath as the scriptures teach. Have you at least on a few occasions, observed the traditional Sabbath? How do we know another “perspective” if we never experience it?

There are many perspectives that we would not want to experience.

My take on the issue is that the Jews gave the Sabbath a bad rap by adding all sorts of extra-biblical Talmudic restrictions and especially, by going around harshly judging ‘everyone else’s behavior. This in turn, caused many early Christian groups to totally abandon Sabbath observance to separate themselves or the perception that they were merely ‘another sect of the Jews’. The Sabbath can be a very enlightening experience if it is done in the right Spirit.

The exact same experience can be had any day and every day. Is this about exalting a day over other days?

Forgive me brother, Howie, I just wanted you to see how annoying and frustrating it can be when someone ignores your questions and chooses to continue to debate in monologues instead of addressing the main points your rebuttals.
You previously asked (and I purposely avoided answering):

As I said; fair enough.

A valid question. We also know that salvation is granted to all those that call in faith upon the name of the Lord (Rom. 10:9). Yet, Jesus warned that many would prophesy and would do marvelous works but be rejected from the Kingdom of God ‘depart from me, ye that work iniquity’ (Iniquity is the transgression of the law.) ‘I never knew you’. (Matt. 7:21-23). Christ, specifically stated in the same chapter that we are to bear fruit (Matt. 7:20) and hear His commandments and ‘do them’ (Matt. 7:24).

The point of Math.7:21-23, is to understand that works are not the issue but rather the relationship. Rev.3:20,21, drives that point home (written to the lukewarm church). As for calling them workers of iniquity, this is the sad state and fate of those who's sins have never been remitted, and are not born again. They will be recognized by their sin rather than by Christ in them. Bearing fruit is an intersting subject. Paul listed the fruit of the spirit.."against such there is no law". Jesus Himself said some would bear 100, some 60, some 30 (%). This is far different than the demands of the law where failure on any one point will make one guilty of the whole law. Under the law the only thing acceptable is 100 % perfection. And again I say...what are His commandments to the church?

So, to answer your question more directly, though obeying the Ten Commandments does not directly grant us eternal life (that is indeed a free gift of faith and grace) continually refusing to obey God’s commands may well witness against us that our faith was not genuine.

Again, we are called to bear fruit. I see a hint of inuendo here, that failure to obey the 4th commandment is equivalent to a lack of genuine faith. One cannot say one thing and then hint the opposite. You have exhorted Sabitarian to speak less condemnation to us to win us over. But what is really in your own heart? Can you see my concern?

Instead of dismissing any of the Ten Commandments, Jesus also expanded upon them, for instance:

Thou shalt not kill, adding that we are not to even be angry with our brothers.

Thou shalt not commit adultery, that we are not even to look with lust upon a woman.
As well as stiffening the written Laws concerning divorce.

What Jesus was doing there was using the law in its proper function, in revealing the true sinful nature of those who were tryiong to keep it. The law is supposed to lead one to the realization that he is a sionner in need of a savior. (the tutor, leading them to Christ)

Christ also never ever transgressed the Sabbath or hinted that it was to be soon come to naught but went about doing God’s work on that sacred day while demonstrating to the legalistic Pharisees some distinct liberties in the ordinances by telling the healed cripple to ‘pick up his bed and walk’ and not rebuking His disciples for merely picking a few ears of corn on the Sabbath.

As far as I know, I never said He broke the sabbath.

Yeah, that’s the ever-so-popular Beatlesque ‘All You Need Is Love’ gospel, alright. I’m sorry, Howie, but IMO it just all rings hollow and illusionary. Where’s the manifest fruit of the Spirit? If what you’re saying is true, why is the church (the Body of Christ) so weak and ineffective. Where is righteous stand against immorality and these endless campaigns of war? Why are so many Christians so utterly spineless and effeminate in nature? Why does this ‘new creature’ have such distain for the Law of God (supposedly written in their hearts)? Why do the Christian women dress so provocatively and do not humbly cover their heads in prayer? Why do so many Christian men bow before their sports idols? Why are their children so rebellious and not being instructed in the ‘ways of the Lord’. If ‘we are in His rest’ why is the divorce rate of Christians equal or greater than those of the heathen?

Too many questions to reply to this one. I have some of the same questions myself. However, I would not use this to mock the instruction to love our fellow man.

The Golden Rule is NOT some “new” NT commandment.

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Amen. Jesus did say He had a new commandment, which was also the old one. What makes it new is that the love of God is poured out in our heart by the Holy Spirit (Rom.5:5). What make it new is that the new man is involved. We are a new creation. The righteous and holy nature of God has been implanted within. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels. The wheat grows together with the weeds.

 

[James Forthwright]

Hello brother Howie. Thanks for your reply. For brevity purposes I have taken the liberty trimming my response to the previous post.

Correct. However, I wonder how the 4th commandment can be a "moral" law. Was is God that made that determination? Or did man? My understanding is that morality is about how we treat others. Love does no harm to a neighbour. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the (moral) law.

mor·al ( môr“…l, m ¼r“-) adj. 1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary. 2. Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson. 3. Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life. 4. Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation…--American Heritage Dictionary

From the above definition a “moral” code defines virtuous behavior, i.e., what is right and just for mankind. As I see it, the Ten Commandments were written in a hierarchical fashion. The first four commandments relate our moral obligation to Our Creator, while the next six describe the mores of proper human behavior amongst ourselves.

Therefore, the keeping of the Sabbath is a crucial part of our moral obligation to conform to God’s stated will for rest for all mankind and beasts of burden. It is a manifest display of our love and obedience to the Father’s divine commands.

Jesus Himself told them how to follow His example. He washed their feet and instructed them to do the same. His example was again; His love for mankind. He said to love Him and keep His commandments as He loved the Father and kept His commandments. This indicates that these are not the same commandments. As well, there is no indication that these mean the ten commandments. A commandment is simply something one is told to do or follow. I marvel that some will automatically assume the word always refers to the ten from Mount Sinai.

I don’t see how you’ve come to the conclusion that Christ commandments did not include God’s commandments. Jesus strengthened and confirmed the Ten Commandments by His perfect observance (and never hinted that they were soon to be superseded after His resurrection). Yes, love of mankind is important but we are also to follow Christ’s example in His LOVE OF THE FATHER by obeying the first four commandments as well.

I have also adressed this on debates concerning women in ministry. I certainly insist as well, that things must be understood in context. Those things you are pointing out were given to a specific culture in a certain time period. However, each subject should be addressed specifically. I disagree with the tactic of making this generalization in suggesting that not all of Paul's content can be considered scripture. This can be dangerous, as one can simply disregard anything one has the mind to do so on that basis. There are many perspectives that we would not want to experience.

Yes, the apostle Paul was usually quite circumspect in delineating which of his statements were of his own opinion and which were of the Spirit of God (1Cor. 7:40). NOTHING culturally has changed regarding Paul’s preaching that women’s heads should be covered when they pray. I merely brought up this doctrinal point to demonstrate that you, likewise, use a degree of subjective selectivity as to which of Paul’s teachings you choose to obey as gospel and which you care to dismiss (for whatever reason).

The exact same experience can be had any day and every day. Is this about exalting a day over other days?

Though what you say is theoretically true, most Christians never get around to devoting an entire day’s time, ( i.e., 24 hrs.) to spiritual pursuits each and every week. There is much to be gained by simply following the Sabbath example as described in the scriptures.

What Jesus was doing there was using the law in its proper function, in revealing the true sinful nature of those who were tryiong to keep it. The law is supposed to lead one to the realization that he is a sionner in need of a savior. (the tutor, leading them to Christ) As far as I know, I never said He broke the sabbath.

Since sin still is pervasive, there remains a need for law. And once we’ve been led to Christ it is incumbent for us to follow in His footsteps. He is the Lord of the Sabbath and never broke the Sabbath in His earthly walk, so therefore, follow His example and be led of the Spirit in doing so.

Amen. Jesus did say He had a new commandment, which was also the old one. What makes it new is that the love of God is poured out in our heart by the Holy Spirit (Rom.5:5). What make it new is that the new man is involved. We are a new creation. The righteous and holy nature of God has been implanted within. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels. The wheat grows together with the weeds.

The wheat is to be differentiated from the weed by bearing fruit. Our new nature in Christ should naturally lead us to obedience to the Father’s Will.

Mat 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

“In point of fact, what the Lord said was that, far from abolishing the Law, He had come to put God's Law into force until it permeated all Israel causing it, God's National Witness, to function as had been intended in the first instance." – Pastor Frank Dowsett

 

[lawrance]

Sunday is the start of the week is it not.
Christ coming is the start of a new day or era, under Grace, not the Law.
So it's new or the start of Christ era. and we start a new with giving thanks for the day so we are renewed in the light of Christ, not of old, as the old has been replaced and Saturday Sabbath is a rejection of Christ because it is of old, not of Christ ! and so the people who push Saturday sabbath day, have been misled to believe in the work of the old. we are not under works. we are under Christ it's a new era.

The story of was sabbath made for man or man made for the sabbath, could show, was Christ made for man or ?

I think the Saturday people are trying to walk over Christ or they do not know who he is.

 

[James Forthwright]

Sunday is the start of the week is it not.

Yes, Sunday is the start of the week. However, we're discussing the seventh day rest, which occurs at the end of the week.

Christ coming is the start of a new day or era, under Grace, not the Law.

So you claim, but there is scant scriptural backing for the dismissal of any of the Ten Commandments (other than some unwarranted wrenching of Paul's writings). Yes, we are now saved by grace, however, without manifesting works of the Law your faith is vacuous. Faith without works is dead, according to the Apostle James.

So it's new or the start of Christ era. and we start a new with giving thanks for the day so we are renewed in the light of Christ, not of old, as the old has been replaced and Saturday Sabbath is a rejection of Christ because it is of old, not of Christ ! and so the people who push Saturday sabbath day, have been misled to believe in the work of the old. we are not under works. we are under Christ it's a new era.

How can following Christ's example in continuing to observe the Sabbath be "a rejection of Christ"? Is Jesus the Lord of a day that his followers no longer obey? Your reasoning makes little sense.

The story of was sabbath made for man or man made for the sabbath, could show, was Christ made for man or?

Jesus showed us how to properly obey the Sabbath statutes. Not by going around accusing others as the godless Pharisees or rejecting the entirety of the fourth commandment as lawless but by following the guidance of the Holy Spirit in our conduct on this sacred day.

I think the Saturday people are trying to walk over Christ or they do not know who he is.

What you think is only subjective reasoning and immaterial. I repeat, there is no scriptural support for the annulment of the Sabbath in the Christian era. None of the other nine commandments have been modified in any way, shape or form. Why would anyone assume that the Fourth Commandment is any different?