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Oct 22, 2011
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Christ was accused not just of "wrong day" keeping, but of "breaking" a sabbath.

Jesus merely showed the over-legalistic Pharisee Jews that the vast majority of their man-made statutes regarding the Sabbath were contrary to the original divine intent and that there were legitimate "exceptions" to the hard-fast rule. Could you cite the example of where Christ was accused of "wrong day" Sabbath keeping? I don't recall anything of the sort.


I know personally of the misery that is caused people by these legalistic theologies, eg as per the world wide church of god Herbert Armstrong etc.

What sort of "misery" are you talking about? Could you cite some examples? After examining WWCOG's theology in detail, I was thoroughly impressed by many of Herbert W. Armstrong's sermons. His insights into the Twelve Tribes of Israel and the Laws of God, i.e., were about the closest to the unvarnished truth of any of the mainstream Christian denominations, IMO. After the founder's HWA's death the WWCOG began a rapid decline and ultimate compromising of their original doctrinal stance.



Legalism has to be the major enemy of the Truth. Who needs a devil when he has people to do his work for him?

No, I disagree. Antinomianism (the rejection of God's Law) is the major enemy of the Truth. It has spawned legions of milquetoast Christians who primarily ONLY read and study the New Testament and base ALL their doctrinal positions on the writings of the Apostle Paul (no balance). It's time for the pendulum to swing back towards honoring God's Law instead of claiming its some kind of curse upon mankind.
 

Sabitarian

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JLB,
To answer your question NO Christ did not fulfill all of the law, only the scrifical law, He left all others as they were. Why would he do away with the very laws that He gave to his people? The chain of command is very important here, Father to Son to Apostles and then to us. Christ wrote the Ten Commandment with His own finger and tells us He did not do away with any of them at His death. Scripture attests to these facts, but you are having problems with doctrine not scripture. Twisting scripture does not make your doctrine right it only makes you a fool. The old addage "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" comes to mind. Read the Book from front to back as a child with no preconceived notions and it will all come together as it should.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
 

JLB

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Mar 25, 2012
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JLB,
To answer your question NO Christ did not fulfill all of the law, only the scrifical law, He left all others as they were. Why would he do away with the very laws that He gave to his people? The chain of command is very important here, Father to Son to Apostles and then to us. Christ wrote the Ten Commandment with His own finger and tells us He did not do away with any of them at His death. Scripture attests to these facts, but you are having problems with doctrine not scripture. Twisting scripture does not make your doctrine right it only makes you a fool. The old addage "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" comes to mind. Read the Book from front to back as a child with no preconceived notions and it will all come together as it should.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

NO Christ did not fulfill all of the law, only the sacrificial law, He left all others as they were.

It sounds like what you are trying to say is Christ did away with animal sacrifices but everything else is the same!

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse... If you try to keep any part of the law, sacrifices or no, you are under a curse.



12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. 17 For He testifies: "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek." 18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. Hebrews 7:12-19

For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Guess what we are now priests who can come to God without going through the Levitical priesthood. There is a huge change.

We don't stone people to death when they are caught in sin. Another huge change!

He is another - This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? It's one or the other.


10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith." 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them." 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.



Have you been baptized in The Holy Spirit? Have you received The Spirit? Please answer.
 
Oct 22, 2011
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O foolish Galatians!

Is that the best you can do, romans7? Galatia is about 15,000 miles from here. Your main doctrinal problem is that you only base your theology on Pauline passages that were addressed to infant pagan Gentile congregations in the First Century. When Paul wrote:

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. --KJV

He was talking primarily about studying the Old Testament, as the New Testament had not been written or codified yet. So why is all your doctrine only based on Paul's writings?

You (apparently) don't even possess the intellectual honesty to answer questions posed to you, Romans7:

James F. previously asked:

Could you cite the example of where Christ was accused of "wrong day" Sabbath keeping?

After examining WWCOG's theology in detail, I was thoroughly impressed by many of Herbert W. Armstrong's sermons. What sort of "misery" are you talking about? Could you cite some examples?

Do you consider God's Law a curse?
--

Would you like to have a reasoned discussion or are you just going to post more one scripture answers everything monologs?
 

romans7

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I can understand your dilemma, but think you should examine the tone of your dealings with people on this forum. The way you talk to each other is very crude, although you like to use the intellectual terminology. There is no point in trying to reason with you as you appear lost in a world of legality. Once a mind is caught up in this nonsense it is very hard to break through the clouded confusion that lies behind the kind of spirit you are exhibiting. I hope one day soon you may be released from your prison and find true freedom in his spirit. This will be my last post on this site, so there is no need to post a reply as I will not be reading it, although I guess you may gain satisfaction by doing so anyway.
 

williemac

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2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. --KJV

He was talking primarily about studying the Old Testament, as the New Testament had not been written or codified yet. So why is all your doctrine only based on Paul's writings?
Hang on there. The King James Bible also says "suffer the little children to come unto Me". Is He suggesting that little children are to suffer? A thousand times, no! It is King James English. It is not the language we speak. More modern translations clarify that He merely meant "let" them come. As well, "study" is another term that we use differently in our language. The King James use of the word literally means to be diligent. Do you really intend to suggest that in order to be approved by God we must 'study' the old testament?

If you want to study something, then maybe you should begin by studying the differences between King James English and modern English.

As well, it is incorrect to comment that all one's doctrine is based solely on Paul's writings. The fact of the matter is that Paul was a teacher of the old testament. He understood it as well as any in his day. His writings were based entirely upon his knowledge of scripture. Therefore his doctrine could not contradict the old testament. Rather, his revelation came from his understanding of the old testament. Therefore if one follows Paul's writings, one is in fact following the old testament.

The question I have is that if one uses the new testament to validate the old testament as scripture, then if the new testament is not scripture, how can we trust its validation of the old?

There are certain truths that were hidden within the old testament. These have been revealed and are recorded in the new testament. Believe it or not!
 
Oct 22, 2011
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Hang on there. The King James Bible also says "suffer the little children to come unto Me". Is He suggesting that little children are to suffer? A thousand times, no! It is King James English. It is not the language we speak. More modern translations clarify that He merely meant "let" them come. As well, "study" is another term that we use differently in our language. The King James use of the word literally means to be diligent. Do you really intend to suggest that in order to be approved by God we must 'study' the old testament?

Hello Howie, let’s begin by looking at the word that the KJV translates as study:

G4704
σπουδάζω
spoudazō
spoo-dad'-zo
From G4710; to use speed, that is, to make effort, be prompt or earnest: - do (give) diligence, be diligent (forward), endeavour, labour, study.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.—KJV

Or in a modern translation:

2Ti 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. --ESV


What I’m saying is that in order to be approved by God we must make a concerted, diligent effort, earnestly endeavor to 'study' THE WHOLE BIBLE so that we can properly understand doctrinal passages in their complete context. The Word of God or doctrinal truth is not contained just in the Pauline epistles or the New Testament. If a Christian consistently ignores or refuses to acknowledge the teachings of the Old Testament, then they are missing out on more than 2/3 of the sacred text and you will consequently not be able to “rightly divide the word of God”.

If you want to study something, then maybe you should begin by studying the differences between King James English and modern English.

Personally speaking, I thoroughly enjoy the poetic beauty of the KJV translation but there are many modern translations that are worthy of scholarly examination. I believe it is a wise course to compare questionable passages against several different translations in order to grasp the fullest meaning of the original Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic text. It’s not a matter of understanding colloquial expressions of 400 year old translations in this case, as any of the translations point to “rightly handling the word of truth”. And that is precisely what we are endeavoring to do in this discussion regarding the validity of continuing to ‘keep the Sabbath holy’ as defined in the (whole) Holy Bible.


As well, it is incorrect to comment that all one's doctrine is based solely on Paul's writings. The fact of the matter is that Paul was a teacher of the old testament. He understood it as well as any in his day. His writings were based entirely upon his knowledge of scripture. Therefore his doctrine could not contradict the old testament. Rather, his revelation came from his understanding of the old testament. Therefore if one follows Paul's writings, one is in fact following the old testament.

OK, then consider that the problem may be attributed to misinterpreting some of Paul’s writings? The Apostle Peter also states that Paul’s writings were a significant bone of contention even in the First Century (1Pet. 3:15-16) One must also take into account to whom Paul’s writings were addressed (his audience). Paul wrote primarily to pagan Churches who had little or no understanding of the Word of God. They were newly converted heathens who just a few short months before were, for example, ignorantly worshipping goddesses like Diana of the Ephesians (Acts 19:35). Paul understood this and deliberately simplified many aspects of God’s Law in his epistles to the Gentile Churches.


The question I have is that if one uses the new testament to validate the old testament as scripture, then if the new testament is not scripture, how can we trust its validation of the old?

Both testaments are the indisputable Word of God and therefore, both should validate each other. The key is studiously searching out the instances where there seems to be a discrepancy and searching out the correct doctrinal solution that satisfies BOTH TESTAMENTS. Sometimes, such as in the case of sacrificial laws, they are clearly superseded by the supreme sacrifice of Christ. Other times, it is understanding to whom certain letters were addressed. And most importantly IMO, it is understanding our true identity as Christian believers. Do we relate or identify with the Israelite Christian church customs and practices or consider ourselves as Gentile Christian believers? Neither camp is “right or wrong” on all issues but it is incumbent that we understand where each stands doctrinally. I identify with the Israelite Church in Jerusalem, you apparently with the Pauline Gentile Christian believers.


There are certain truths that were hidden within the old testament. These have been revealed and are recorded in the new testament. Believe it or not!

Yes, I totally agree with that astute assessment, Howie. And, likewise, believe it or not! . . .there are yet further hidden truths and profound revelations which are being revealed to the latter day Christians, if they would but endeavor to make a concerted, diligent effort, earnestly endeavor and 'study' THE WHOLE BIBLE so that they might possess and cultivate proper “ears to hear and eyes to see.”
 

williemac

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Hello Howie, let’s begin by looking at the word that the KJV translates as study:

G4704
σπουδάζω
spoudazō
spoo-dad'-zo
From G4710; to use speed, that is, to make effort, be prompt or earnest: - do (give) diligence, be diligent (forward), endeavour, labour, study.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.—KJV

Or in a modern translation:

2Ti 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. --ESV


What I’m saying is that in order to be approved by God we must make a concerted, diligent effort, earnestly endeavor to 'study' THE WHOLE BIBLE so that we can properly understand doctrinal passages in their complete context. The Word of God or doctrinal truth is not contained just in the Pauline epistles or the New Testament. If a Christian consistently ignores or refuses to acknowledge the teachings of the Old Testament, then they are missing out on more than 2/3 of the sacred text and you will consequently not be able to “rightly divide the word of God”.
That is what YOU say. We are approved by God through faith in Jesus. This is what the word of God says, so am I not rightly dividing it by understanding just how approval comes? In fact, when the passage was written, there were no copy machines. There were only limited manuscripts available, which is the main reason that people met in assemblies to learn from those who had access to these scriptures. As well, to remind you of your own observation, this passage was part of a letter written by Paul to Timothy. So now you are willing to break away from your own perspective on Paul's writings and insist that he was instructing the entire body of Christ to read and learn the old testament in order to rightly divide the word and be approved by God. hmmmm
Personally speaking, I thoroughly enjoy the poetic beauty of the KJV translation but there are many modern translations that are worthy of scholarly examination. I believe it is a wise course to compare questionable passages against several different translations in order to grasp the fullest meaning of the original Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic text. It’s not a matter of understanding colloquial expressions of 400 year old translations in this case, as any of the translations point to “rightly handling the word of truth”. And that is precisely what we are endeavoring to do in this discussion regarding the validity of continuing to ‘keep the Sabbath holy’ as defined in the (whole) Holy Bible.
I agree that we would be wise to look at and compare multiple translations. However, on the subject of the Sabbath rest, the whole bible demonstrates that it is fulfilled differently in the new covenant than in the old. It is my intention to submit this understanding and thus defend my own practices as one who's heart does not condemn him.

OK, then consider that the problem may be attributed to misinterpreting some of Paul’s writings? The Apostle Peter also states that Paul’s writings were a significant bone of contention even in the First Century (2Pet. 3:15-16) One must also take into account to whom Paul’s writings were addressed (his audience). Paul wrote primarily to pagan Churches who had little or no understanding of the Word of God. They were newly converted heathens who just a few short months before were, for example, ignorantly worshipping goddesses like Diana of the Ephesians (Acts 19:35). Paul understood this and deliberately simplified many aspects of God’s Law in his epistles to the Gentile Churches.
Peter also called Paul's writings scripture in that passage. The fact that Paul wrote to previuosly pagan people, does not annull what he told them about grace, faith, the differences between the old covenant and new, the contrast between grace and law, faith and works, and many other concepts. These concepts are true. He was not giving them another gospel. There is one gospel. He was not giving them another truth. Truth is truth.

Both testaments are the indisputable Word of God and therefore, both should validate each other. The key is studiously searching out the instances where there seems to be a discrepancy and searching out the correct doctrinal solution that satisfies BOTH TESTAMENTS.
My interpretation takes the whole bible into consideration and puts all things in their proper context (as much as I have been successful in doing so). I see no discrepancy in the way I have interpreted it. The discrepency is in the different interpretations that have arisen, as you have stated.
Sometimes, such as in the case of sacrificial laws, they are clearly superseded by the supreme sacrifice of Christ. Other times, it is understanding to whom certain letters were addressed. And most importantly IMO, it is understanding our true identity as Christian believers. Do we relate or identify with the Israelite Christian church customs and practices or consider ourselves as Gentile Christian believers? Neither camp is “right or wrong” on all issues but it is incumbent that we understand where each stands doctrinally. I identify with the Israelite Church in Jerusalem, you apparently with the Pauline Gentile Christian believers.
That is not how I perceive it. There is one body, not two. One faith, one Lord.

Yes, I totally agree with that astute assessment, Howie. And, likewise, believe it or not! . . .there are yet further hidden truths and profound revelations which are being revealed to the latter day Christians, if they would but endeavor to make a concerted, diligent effort, earnestly endeavor and 'study' THE WHOLE BIBLE so that they might possess and cultivate proper “ears to hear and eyes to see.”
No argument there.

From # 328 "OK, then consider that the problem may be attributed to misinterpreting some of Paul’s writings? The Apostle Peter also states that Paul’s writings were a significant bone of contention even in the First Century (2Pet. 3:15-16) "

This is a profound observation. This is the root of this kind of debate. In the first century, it took a little time for the converted Jew to understand the workings of the covenant of grace. There was much opposition to it. Even Peter and James were at odds with Paul for a time. This is all recorded. Paul withstood Peter to his face in one case. But now we see Peter endorsing Paul's letters as scripture.

As well, there were those who crept in and attempted to bring some back under the law for justification. Paul's letter to the Galatians was in response to this very thing. So Paul went into great detail with them concerning the contrast between law and grace, and the history and contrast between the two covenants. So in the case of this debate, I don't buy the idea that this is necessarily about the misinterpretation of Paul's writings. I suspect that this is rather an excuse used by those who don't like how Paul's writings interfere with their practices and beliefs.
This debate is about new covenant principles and how they are not the same as old covenant principles and practices.

On this note, in regards to the original subject, the Sabbath is about resting from one's work. According to the author of Hebrews, who may not be Paul, it is about entering in to God's rest. How? By ceasing from one's work. Keep in mind who this was written to. These were not pagans. They were those who were previously under the works of the law. They were those who were already keeping the 4th commandment. As well, those who were described by the author as not entering His rest, also kept the 4th commandment. But their fault was unbelief. That is why they did not enter. The sabbath rest was a picture of the promised land. It was about coming into the promise of rest.

The rest we are to enter into is more permanent than merely not working on saturday. When one comes out from under the works of the law (dead works), into faith, one enters His rest. This is the fulfillment of the Sabbath command. There are two types of rest. One we do for ourselves, the other is given to us freely. These are the two covenants. Believe it or not.
 

rainbows

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May 24, 2012
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The sabbath is listed within the ten commandments.

The ten commandments are part of the old covenant
established at Mt Sinai between God and the Jews.

Acts 15

5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.” (including the sabbath)

6 The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.

7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.

8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

10 Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? (including the ten commandments)

11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

It is very clear that the ten commandments are but a small part
of the "Law of Moses". Anyone who disagrees with the determination
of the apostles has a very serious problem.

The text above Acts 15 is clear and precise.
 

Sabitarian

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Sep 11, 2011
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JLB,
#323 all of your scriptures are about keeping the sacrifices and none of them about anything else. Under the curse of the law is the sacrifical law and it made nothing perfect as another sacrifice had to be made daily.
The problem comes in when the sign of God is the 4th commandment as it is the only one that fulfills the who, what and why necessary for the sign. This will be the deciding place for the people who will face the wrath of God or suffer from the tribulation.
The reward for keeping the sign of God is so much better than the alternative.
http://www.thesabbathday.co.uk/page4.htm
 

JLB

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Mar 25, 2012
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JLB,
#323 all of your scriptures are about keeping the sacrifices and none of them about anything else. Under the curse of the law is the sacrifical law and it made nothing perfect as another sacrifice had to be made daily.
The problem comes in when the sign of God is the 4th commandment as it is the only one that fulfills the who, what and why necessary for the sign. This will be the deciding place for the people who will face the wrath of God or suffer from the tribulation.
The reward for keeping the sign of God is so much better than the alternative.
http://www.thesabbat...co.uk/page4.htm


So now you have decided to pick a part of the law that suits you. If you keep this commandment PLUS believe that Christ died for you, THEN you are saved.


Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.



Sorry, your reasoning just comes up short again, in light of God's Word.
 

Axehead

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May you all enjoy the Sabbath Rest of God (Christ) each and every day as He has given us a new heart to worship Him and rest in Him (from our own strivings and works of righteousness). Are you at REST everyday? He wants us to be. He has provided Himself as our Sabbath Rest. So, if you are in prison or otherwise incapacitated and unable to meet with the Saints or observe a "special" day of worship rather than your everyday of worship, then don't despair. He is with you in prison, or in a hospital room or wherever you are and you can enjoy Him as your true Sabbath. Is your job requiring you to work 7 days a week for a season? Don't despair. God knows that you are providing for your family and He is your rest. It is a form of worship to fulfill your responsibilities and take care of your family. He desires mercy and love over sacrifice. Are you in a labor camp breaking rocks everyday of the week? He is with you as your Sabbath (Rest).

The scriptures say (in Romans 14) that you can treat all days alike or you can have special days, it is totally up to you. But, we all must abide in and walk with Christ EVERY DAY. There are no special days to do this, but rather every day. No compromise on whether you should abide in Christ everyday or not.


Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

You are the temple of the Lord and you can meet with Him and worship Him no matter your estate in life or your circumstances.

Axehead
 

rainbows

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May 24, 2012
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Hello Sabbatarians.

The sabbath is one of the laws in the Ten Commandments.

The Ten Commandments were a part of the greater set of laws
given to Moses and Israel.

Leviticus 26:46

These are the statutes and ordinances and laws which the Lord established between
Himself and the sons of Israel through Moses at Mount Sinai.

We Gentiles were never part of this covenant!

Does that mean that people will not try to force the law
of Moses into the New Covenant.

They tried to force the law of Moses upon the early
Christian Gentiles in the apostles era.

Read the following please.

Acts 15

5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up,
saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.

7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them,
“Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you,
that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.

8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit,
just as He also did to us;

9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

10 Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the
disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus,
in the same way as they also are.”

Acts 15 does say "the Law of Moses" it does not say sacrifices.

Then can be no doubt that the Ten Commandments have no place
in the New Covenant.

Some folk refer to the Ten Commandments as moral laws, they
should note that many other laws in the Law of Moses are moral.

The Law of Moses was given to Israel, never for any other nation.
 

Sabitarian

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None of you as any idea of what scripture means as you twist it out of context to suit your own doctrine, which is not your own, but that of the Papacy brought to you by the Catholic Church, who by the way are mentioned in Revelations as the Scarlet whore. Now do you want to follow her? She will suffer the wrath of God served with out mercy on all who follow her and her daughters are the Protestant Churches, who are also mentioned in Revelations as Falling. Do you belong to a fallen Church? Will you suffer the same fate as the Whore, by following her doctrine? If the laws were only given to Israel then why did God Kill animals to cloth Adam and Eve? It was a blood sacrifice to cover Adams sin.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
 

williemac

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None of you as any idea of what scripture means as you twist it out of context to suit your own doctrine, which is not your own, but that of the Papacy brought to you by the Catholic Church, who by the way are mentioned in Revelations as the Scarlet whore. Now do you want to follow her? She will suffer the wrath of God served with out mercy on all who follow her and her daughters are the Protestant Churches, who are also mentioned in Revelations as Falling. Do you belong to a fallen Church? Will you suffer the same fate as the Whore, by following her doctrine? If the laws were only given to Israel then why did God Kill animals to cloth Adam and Eve? It was a blood sacrifice to cover Adams sin.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
The law of the Spirit of life has set me free from the law of sin and death. The blood sacrifice of Jesus is enough. In my case, I have studied these concepts independantly. You, on the other hand , seem to be merely repeating what you have been told. Do you have your own understanding? God gives grace to the humble, resists the proud. Those who think He will reward their own righteousness will have a rude awakening.
 

JLB

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None of you as any idea of what scripture means as you twist it out of context to suit your own doctrine, which is not your own, but that of the Papacy brought to you by the Catholic Church, who by the way are mentioned in Revelations as the Scarlet whore. Now do you want to follow her? She will suffer the wrath of God served with out mercy on all who follow her and her daughters are the Protestant Churches, who are also mentioned in Revelations as Falling. Do you belong to a fallen Church? Will you suffer the same fate as the Whore, by following her doctrine? If the laws were only given to Israel then why did God Kill animals to cloth Adam and Eve? It was a blood sacrifice to cover Adams sin.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

So, by your reasoning, we need to kill animals to atone for our sin.

What part of the law do you feel we need to keep?


Thanks, JLB
 
Oct 22, 2011
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That is what YOU say. We are approved by God through faith in Jesus. This is what the word of God says, so am I not rightly dividing it by understanding just how approval comes? In fact, when the passage was written, there were no copy machines. There were only limited manuscripts available, which is the main reason that people met in assemblies to learn from those who had access to these scriptures. As well, to remind you of your own observation, this passage was part of a letter written by Paul to Timothy. So now you are willing to break away from your own perspective on Paul's writings and insist that he was instructing the entire body of Christ to read and learn the old testament in order to rightly divide the word and be approved by God. hmmmm

I’ve already stated that there is much to admire in Paul’s writings (I am not anti-Pauline by any means) and much (but not all) of what Paul teaches can/does apply to the Church at Jerusalem as well as the Gentile churches. You are right there were no copy machines and only limited manuscripts available. But what WAS available was primarily the Old Testament and a few copies of Paul’s own letters which he encouraged his other churches to circulate as the New Testament was not yet codified. There is much wisdom in BOTH testaments to benefit the body of Christ. What disturbs me is the general ignorance of the Old Testament and irreverence for the Law of God exemplified by many modern Christians.

I agree that we would be wise to look at and compare multiple translations. However, on the subject of the Sabbath rest, the whole bible demonstrates that it is fulfilled differently in the new covenant than in the old. It is my intention to submit this understanding and thus defend my own practices as one who's heart does not condemn him.

That’s an interesting theory, Howie, but thus far you’ve provided scant scriptural basis for this “new” conception of Sabbath rest. There were many passages to support that circumcision, e.g, is no longer mandatory in the NT and circumcision is not even one of the Ten Commandments. How many more passages would naturally exist if one of the Ten Commandments was to be altered or amended? Yet, what there are, are very limited and largely ambiguous. The Catholic Church by ecclesiastical mandate changed Sabbath observance not the New Testament. Many Catholic theologians use this fact to demonstrate the RCC’s dominance over Protestantism.


Peter also called Paul's writings scripture in that passage. The fact that Paul wrote to previuosly (sic) pagan people, does not annull (sic) what he told them about grace, faith, the differences between the old covenant and new, the contrast between grace and law, faith and works, and many other concepts. These concepts are true. He was not giving them another gospel. There is one gospel. He was not giving them another truth. Truth is truth.

Certain laws apply differently to various locales. In some countries they drive on the left side of the road, others on the right. The Israelite Church based in Jerusalem observed a more rigid legal code than Gentile Churches. You seem to claim that everything the Apostle Paul wrote is the incontrovertible “Word of God” yet does your fellowship allow women to speak and teach in church (1Co 14:34) or pray with their heads uncovered or unshaven? (1Cor. 11:5-6) (1Cor. 11:10). The same sacred Pauline epistles strictly object to both practices yet everything else Paul states regarding the Law is taken as “gospel” and “truth”.

We are indeed, saved by faith but faith without works is dead. (James 2:17-20) I find it curious that the one commandment that actually requires a dedicated weekly observance (the Sabbath) is the only commandment that Christians feel free to “spiritualize”, leaving the other nine completely intact.

My interpretation takes the whole bible into consideration and puts all things in their proper context (as much as I have been successful in doing so). I see no discrepancy in the way I have interpreted it. The discrepancy is in the different interpretations that have arisen, as you have stated.
That is not how I perceive it. There is one body, not two. One faith, one Lord.

Sure, unity of faith and doctrine is the ideal but in practice there’s a wide variation of Christian doctrinal practice in each denomination. Yes, the body is unified spiritually through our faith in Christ Jesus and there is a vast spectrum of differences of doctrinal interpretations, some are more scripturally valid than others.

Also, consider that maybe you haven’t found any discrepancies because you have yet to study the topic of the Sabbath in its fullest detail and have accepted what you’ve been taught as “gospel”?

I haven’t always been a Sabbath-keeping Christian except for the last fifteen years. Before then, there was always a nagging question in the back of my mind as to why there was never any doubt regarding the continuing validity of the other nine commandments but the Sabbath was not being generally observed in a literal sense. Then I began a serious study on the subject. After examining many arguments for and against Sabbath observance I finally concluded that there is no rational reason why I shouldn’t begin to set aside the biblical prescribed seventh day (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) solely for spiritual pursuits and ultimately found ‘Keeping the Sabbath holy’ to be an enlightening and wholly blessed experience.
 

williemac

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Apr 29, 2012
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I’ve already stated that there is much to admire in Paul’s writings (I am not anti-Pauline by any means) and much (but not all) of what Paul teaches can/does apply to the Church at Jerusalem as well as the Gentile churches. You are right there were no copy machines and only limited manuscripts available. But what WAS available was primarily the Old Testament and a few copies of Paul’s own letters which he encouraged his other churches to circulate as the New Testament was not yet codified. There is much wisdom in BOTH testaments to benefit the body of Christ. What disturbs me is the general ignorance of the Old Testament and irreverence for the Law of God exemplified by many modern Christians.
You have two things that disturb you. First, the general ignorance of the Old Testament. This is usually true of those who have a general ignorance of the entire bible. That grieves me as well. The second is unrelated. Irreverence is a serious charge. It assumes that you know why they are practicing sunday worship and thus judges the hearts of those involved. Maybe they/we are merely decieved. Whatever happened to .." forgive them for they know not what they do"? We do not wrestle against flesh and blood.

That’s an interesting theory, Howie, but thus far you’ve provided scant scriptural basis for this “new” conception of Sabbath rest. There were many passages to support that circumcision, e.g, is no longer mandatory in the NT and circumcision is not even one of the Ten Commandments. How many more passages would naturally exist if one of the Ten Commandments was to be altered or amended? Yet, what there are, are very limited and largely ambiguous. The Catholic Church by ecclesiastical mandate changed Sabbath observance not the New Testament. Many Catholic theologians use this fact to demonstrate the RCC’s dominance over Protestantism.
Circumcision was the sign that one is in agreement to keep the law. It was the proverbial signature on the contract. It was an agreement to keep one's part of the covenant of law. This is the bone of contention that Paul had. It was connected with lawkeeping.

As well, the 'scant' scriptural basis, as you call it, does not mean that the scripture is errant. It says what it says.


Certain laws apply differently to various locales. In some countries they drive on the left side of the road, others on the right. The Israelite Church based in Jerusalem observed a more rigid legal code than Gentile Churches. You seem to claim that everything the Apostle Paul wrote is the incontrovertible “Word of God” yet does your fellowship allow women to speak and teach in church (1Co 14:34) or pray with their heads uncovered or unshaven? (1Cor. 11:5-6) (1Cor. 11:10). The same sacred Pauline epistles strictly object to both practices yet everything else Paul states regarding the Law is taken as “gospel” and “truth”.
I would make the same arguments as you do concerning the instructions Paul made to various churches, in that in some cases they are relevant to the culture. However, this is a diversion from the things he said about the law vs. grace. It is a poor argument in the end, as it serves to invalidate that which is declared about the new covenant vs. the old covenant.
We are indeed, saved by faith but faith without works is dead. (James 2:17-20) I find it curious that the one commandment that actually requires a dedicated weekly observance (the Sabbath) is the only commandment that Christians feel free to “spiritualize”, leaving the other nine completely intact.
The works mentioned by paul to the Galatians, he calls the fruit of the spirit. ..."against such there is no law" There is no passage that decalres faith without obedience to law is dead. "works" is just another term for deeds, or things done. The word by itself does not imply keeping law. Just look at the examples given by James, who coined the phrase you are quoting.

As well, FYI, the entire law that came down from Mnt. Sinai is spiritualized. God's promise is that He would put His law in our hearts. It is no longer kept by the observance of commands. We are at rest from "our works". This is the seventh day. God did not go back to creating on the eighth day. His rest from His work is permanent. The sign of the sabbath rest is kept by faith in Jesus, not by the work of a law. How is it that one can feel he is resting while at the same time he is performing a work?
Sure, unity of faith and doctrine is the ideal but in practice there’s a wide variation of Christian doctrinal practice in each denomination. Yes, the body is unified spiritually through our faith in Christ Jesus and there is a vast spectrum of differences of doctrinal interpretations, some are more scripturally valid than others.

Also, consider that maybe you haven’t found any discrepancies because you have yet to study the topic of the Sabbath in its fullest detail and have accepted what you’ve been taught as “gospel”?

I haven’t always been a Sabbath-keeping Christian except for the last fifteen years. Before then, there was always a nagging question in the back of my mind as to why there was never any doubt regarding the continuing validity of the other nine commandments but the Sabbath was not being generally observed in a literal sense. Then I began a serious study on the subject. After examining many arguments for and against Sabbath observance I finally concluded that there is no rational reason why I shouldn’t begin to set aside the biblical prescribed seventh day (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) solely for spiritual pursuits and ultimately found ‘Keeping the Sabbath holy’ to be an enlightening and wholly blessed experience.
I concur. Keeping the sabbath rest by faith is certainly a blessed experience. I will stand fast in that liberty.

The sabbath was made for man, not the other way around. The day itself is no holier than any other day. Holiness is found in Him. And in Him, we are holy, and have entered His rest.
 

JLB

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Mar 25, 2012
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You have two things that disturb you. First, the general ignorance of the Old Testament. This is usually true of those who have a general ignorance of the entire bible. That grieves me as well. The second is unrelated. Irreverence is a serious charge. It assumes that you know why they are practicing sunday worship and thus judges the hearts of those involved. Maybe they/we are merely decieved. Whatever happened to .." forgive them for they know not what they do"? We do not wrestle against flesh and blood.


Circumcision was the sign that one is in agreement to keep the law. It was the proverbial signature on the contract. It was an agreement to keep one's part of the covenant of law. This is the bone of contention that Paul had. It was connected with lawkeeping.

As well, the 'scant' scriptural basis, as you call it, does not mean that the scripture is errant. It says what it says.



I would make the same arguments as you do concerning the instructions Paul made to various churches, in that in some cases they are relevant to the culture. However, this is a diversion from the things he said about the law vs. grace. It is a poor argument in the end, as it serves to invalidate that which is declared about the new covenant vs. the old covenant.

The works mentioned by paul to the Galatians, he calls the fruit of the spirit. ..."against such there is no law" There is no passage that decalres faith without obedience to law is dead. "works" is just another term for deeds, or things done. The word by itself does not imply keeping law. Just look at the examples given by James, who coined the phrase you are quoting.

As well, FYI, the entire law that came down from Mnt. Sinai is spiritualized. God's promise is that He would put His law in our hearts. It is no longer kept by the observance of commands. We are at rest from "our works". This is the seventh day. God did not go back to creating on the eighth day. His rest from His work is permanent. The sign of the sabbath rest is kept by faith in Jesus, not by the work of a law. How is it that one can feel he is resting while at the same time he is performing a work?
I concur. Keeping the sabbath rest by faith is certainly a blessed experience. I will stand fast in that liberty.

The sabbath was made for man, not the other way around. The day itself is no holier than any other day. Holiness is found in Him. And in Him, we are holy, and have entered His rest.



The sabbath was made for man, not the other way around. The day itself is no holier than any other day. Holiness is found in Him. And in Him, we are holy, and have entered His rest.


Amen to that brother.