Saved By Fear?

[GodsGrace]

Just sit back in the peanut gallery and watch the show.
You don't have to get involved and get stressed and depressed.

It's more depressing to not say anything.

 

[OzSpen]

Man does not have free will. Man has a will that must accept or reject salvation.

Stranger

Human beings DO have free will and it started with the first 2 human beings. God gave them choice. Even this Calvinistic site (Got Questions?) agrees with me:

God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice to obey Him or disobey Him. Adam and Eve were free to do anything they wanted, except eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:16-17, “And the LORD God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.’” If God had not given Adam and Eve the choice, they would have essentially been robots, simply doing what they were programmed to do. God created Adam and Eve to be “free” beings, able to make decisions, able to choose between good and evil. In order for Adam and Eve to truly be free, they had to have a choice (Why did God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden?).​

The will of God is that all human beings have free will to make all kinds of choices in this world. I chose to eat ice-cream tonight for supper. I could have chosen not to eat it. I chose to watch TV rugby league today. I chose not to gamble on the horses last Saturday. I chose not to drink alcohol when I went to the tavern for lunch on Wed.

However, when it comes to worship of God and salvation, salvation is from the Lord. But human beings have choices in this regard, exemplified by verses such as:

• Joshua 24:

14 ‘Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshipped beyond the River Euphrates and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.’

16 Then the people answered, ‘Far be it from us to forsake the Lord to serve other gods! (NIV, emphasis added).​

• Acts 16:31 (NIV): '‘[You] believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved – you and your household.’

God provides salvation that is available to all (Titus 2:11), but people have to choose to serve the Lord. This is not Pelagianism, it is biblical Christianity.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

If a man could accept or reject it means he has A FREE WILL to do just that.

 

[bbyrd009]

You say we aren't predestined, but Paul states otherwise. Predestination is supposed to come first in the order of business according to Paul. Whoever God predestined he also called, whoever he called he also justified, and whoever he justified, them he also glorified. I think the confusion is in how our freedom of choice can be used and when it can be used. To say otherwise is to claim that humanity can just freely choose God without God choosing them first. This all depends on how you define predestination.

I believe you're quoting Romans 8:30
Why not start with Romans 8:29 ??

Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

You can't pick and choose your verses, they have to be in context.
God FOREKNEW who would pick HIM, He predestined these people to be conformed to the image of His Son.

The predestination is referring to the METHOD by which those who pick God would be saved, it does not refer to individual salvation of persons.

What you believe goes against every biblical idea.
If God desires all to be saved, as 1 Timothy tell us, why does He not just save everyone???
1 Timothy 2:3-4
Do you suppose Paul was totally confused in what he was saying?
When preaching, was Jesus speaking to EVERYONE, or was He just speaking to these predestined persons you speak of?

Can it be that God desires that all men be saved but there is a condition and that condition is that WE have to choose HIM??
John 3:16 is simple and to the point...

John 3:16-21
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

In every biblical writing you find that men are judged by their deeds and by belief in God. Nowhere does it say that God chooses who will be saved, only HOW they will be saved. THIS was predestined.

John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Again, it depends on US as to who will be saved.
What kind of a God would choose some for salvation and some for hell?

if you guys ever realize the first bit of fruit from this discussion, i'd like to know what it is! tag me or something? ty

 

[GodsGrace]

if you guys ever realize the first bit of fruit from this discussion, i'd like to know what it is! tag me or something? ty

We cannot change the nature of God.
God is love.
Calvin tried to change God's nature. God is all good.
He would never, arbitrarily, send anyone to hell.
He provided salvation for all.

 

[OzSpen]

It's more depressing to not say anything.

GodsGrace,

Have you read Albert Mohler's book, We Cannot Be Silent?

Here's a Review by The Gospel Coalition.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace,

Have you read Albert Mohler's book, We Cannot Be Silent?

Here's a Review by The Gospel Coalition.

Oz

Far be it for me to keep quiet!!
Will read the review.

 

[bbyrd009]

It's more depressing to not say anything.

this is a marker for codependency, fwiw, even if i do empathize. but then i am a raging codependent too lol

 

[OzSpen]

Good. I know a more simple one which I know you agree with...
Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

God has always made Himself be known, before He even revealed Himself to Abraham and the Hebrews. His existence could be known through His creation and the wonder persons had by seeing what was around them in nature and in the heavens. Who could not look at a star and wonder how it got there? Man has always believed in a higher power, in God. The American Indian did not have a bible and yet he believed in a spirit world. Tribes in So. America and Africa do not have the bible and yet they pray to a "god".

Now we have the bible. Now we know the mystery which has been explained to us...salvation in Christ. We have more proof than ever that God exists and that He draws us to His Son.

It's up to us to accept His Son. THIS is what the bible teaches. A loving God that wants all the world to be saved. The only condition is to believe and to obey to the best of our ability.

Any other belief is not biblical but a heresy created by one man.
Some believe the bible.
Some believe a man.

I agree.

Do you realise that quite a deal of Calvinistic theology came from St. Augustine? See: Augustine's Influence on Calvin, Luther, and Zwingli | The ...

Oz

 

[bbyrd009]

the blind lead the blind, i guess

 

[OzSpen]

We cannot change the nature of God.
God is love.
Calvin tried to change God's nature. God is all good.
He would never, arbitrarily, send anyone to hell.
He provided salvation for all.

GodsGrace,

When you speak of God's nature, are you describing his attributes?

How does Heb 12:29 - a quote from the OT - fit with your understanding of 'God is love': our ‘God is a consuming fire' (NIV).

Was God acting in love when he wiped out the entire human race, except for 8, in the day of Noah? That action sounds like justice to me.

It's way beyond bedtime for me, 11.35pm Good Friday.

Oz

 

[bbyrd009]

Was God acting in love when he wiped out the entire human race, except for 8, in the day of Noah?

they all made a choice, though. Better perspectives available than "God wiped them all out," which is not technically true anyway

 

[forrestcupp]

Yeah, that's basically what I said was it not? He calls everyone, and whether or not they actually choose him is up to the individual. Scripture is clear that no one comes to Jesus but by the Father, and vice versa, as they are both one. God knew the Jews were going to reject him, it was apart of his overall plan, so its not saying much in of itself.

I'm in agreement with what you said right here. The problem is that a lot of people don't believe that God calls everyone. Many believe that God picks and chooses whom He calls, and only those have a chance. I don't have a problem with the notion that people respond to the conviction and calling of the Father through His Holy Spirit. That's pretty obvious, even anecdotally. But God calls everyone, not just a select few. And it's up to everyone to respond to that call, or reject it. Everyone has a chance.

 

[GodsGrace]

this is a marker for codependency, fwiw, even if i do empathize. but then i am a raging codependent too lol

Who cares anymore!

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree.

Do you realise that quite a deal of Calvinistic theology came from St. Augustine? See: Augustine's Influence on Calvin, Luther, and Zwingli | The ...

Oz

Yes I do.
I have little respect for him, he changed his mind continually.
If you asked me what he thought of evil, I'd have to ask at what point in his life.
And, he was the only one who came up with this idea of predestination. The early church father's never taught this.
Paul should have been more careful with his language, but he spoke as one thinking his words would never be understood. Alas, even Peter said Paul spoke in a way difficult to understand.

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace,

When you speak of God's nature, are you describing his attributes?

How does Heb 12:29 - a quote from the OT - fit with your understanding of 'God is love': our ‘God is a consuming fire' (NIV).

Was God acting in love when he wiped out the entire human race, except for 8, in the day of Noah? That action sounds like justice to me.

It's way beyond bedtime for me, 11.35pm Good Friday.

Oz

Attribute
a quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something.
"flexibility and mobility are the key attributes of Britain's army"
sinonimi: quality, feature, characteristic, trait, element, aspect, property, hallmark, mark, distinction, sign, telltale sign, sure sign;


Nature
the basic or inherent features, character, or qualities of something.
"helping them to realize the nature of their problems"
sinonimi: essence, inherent/basic/essential characteristics, inherent/basic/essential qualities, inherent/basic/essential attributes, inherent/basic/essential features, sum and substance, character,


Oz, I don't distinguish well between attributes and nature.
It's what let's God be Good. The qualities He has that make Him different from us.
For instance, He's a creater, He's Holy, He's immortal and ever-living, He's justice, He's love, and more.

I agree regarding His justice. I've argued for this on this very thread. God is a loving God, but He is also a just God, which is why He gives everyone the chance for salvation,,,He would not be just if He didn't.

 

[APAK]

The subject of free or not so free will or wills..we do have two!?

It's a long one again..bear with me ....think of it as an Easter special....

This subject of ‘free’-will is not One-dimensional in the least. It must be discussed with several variables in mind at the same time. Folks get disillusioned quite quickly when they only think on one plane at a time. It is not for starter folks, as in a Christianity 101 class.

Why most well-intentioned folks given up on a subject like this is because they first do not frame the subject and goal/objectives correctly. Is it about will? It is about pre-knowledge? Is it about God calling? Is it about Adam’s ‘first’ and ‘last’ spiritual condition? Is it about our birth condition? Its it about the outer mind…etc

We must start with a basic understanding of who we are, in relation to Adam, Christ and God, separately and together.

Who is I or me anyway?

Well the ‘I’ is brought into existence from the actions of man and God. Humans impregnate and conceive human soulish beings, physical beings with a physical DNA; God impregnates and conceives human spiritual beings, with spiritual DNA, markings of God. We become a living soul with both type of DNA, one for the spirit and one for the soul.

Adam was created with an ‘unfinished’ spirit (no image of Christ). He was created in the image of himself as where the angels. Adam was of course also a soul and made of flesh.

Now to take was @Taken has effectively said in many posts, in my word, we have spirit (communicate, intuition, love of God) of the heart that has its own will and thoughts. We also have a soul of the brain that also has a will, a mind with thoughts. WE HAVE TWO WILLS...

Adam had the fully capacity of both his spirit will and soulish will. These wills were created in a limited fashion as he was made of flesh. He was not a god. There was harmony with both of his wills, until an outside agent brought imbalance. Adam chose from his soulish will over his spirit will. And we know the rest of the story.

He chose thinking of no consequences in using his outer mind, what he could see and control, as he thought God does. It was a lie of course. Adam failed to ‘see’ the difference between his soul’s will that dictated the play and decision over his spirit’s will.

Upon disobedience, Adam’s spirit ‘will’ became very restricted as to his communication with God. God turned off the spigot of communications and his messages of love. Adam was now on his own to choose from his soulish side the way of life. Although God was still interested in Adam.

God did however leave an opening in his spirit to regain his knowledge and love of God, to reach out and know him again, to restore his human creation. Part of God’s plan all along.

If Adam ate of the tree of life in his disobedient state, Adam would be as a god as the fallen angels although in the form of flesh – a god-man if you will.

The un-regenerated spirit man today listens to the external spirits and minds of this world and his internal soulish mind. It is very easy to forget the spirit will inside him.

God’s centerpiece plan of mankind’s salvation is to form an image of himself within the spirit of man. Adam did not have this image born in his heart. Man, today under grace has this opportunity to have this image of God through his son’s image or spirit. He wants all to choose him, in love, from the heart.

To pre-knowledge and pre-destination….

God predestined or knew those that would come to him before they were born. He is outside the restrictions of time. He foreknew those that wanted to come to him and he was there to receive them at his time of choosing – at a time oblivious and unexpected to the one under this curse of sin and therefore, time.

The spirit side is where we reach out to God before coming to him. He chooses to take notice if our heart is genuine. We cannot choose God in this respect. We have limited ‘free’ will in spiritual things. The disobedience of Adam made it this way.

Our outer mind thinks of God because of our spirit will wants to reach out to God. So first the process of salvation begins and is sparked by our reaching out through our spirit. The outer soulish mind amplified it and analyzes it. If our heartfelt will wins over the carnal mind (our carnal mind gives way- yields) then and only then will the spirit of God come back into our hearts. If the carnal mind does not give way, we can believe in Christ all day long and it is still not a miraculous regeneration of our hearts. It does not perform a miracle with the presence of God via our carnal mind.

Yes, our soulish side has more ‘free’ will to do whatever our brain, outer mind, limbs can muster to do. It is still limited in choice of course. We are still in the flesh with limitations of the brain.

As a believer as we grow in faith, our spiritual soon take a strong hold to where it can control the functions of the soul - brain mind and will more easily. God is working within this spirit side of us to become the completed image of Christ.

Adam never had such a spiritual surgical operation performed on him.

APAK

 

[twinc]

Attribute
a quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something.
"flexibility and mobility are the key attributes of Britain's army"
sinonimi: quality, feature, characteristic, trait, element, aspect, property, hallmark, mark, distinction, sign, telltale sign, sure sign;


Nature
the basic or inherent features, character, or qualities of something.
"helping them to realize the nature of their problems"
sinonimi: essence, inherent/basic/essential characteristics, inherent/basic/essential qualities, inherent/basic/essential attributes, inherent/basic/essential features, sum and substance, character,


Oz, I don't distinguish well between attributes and nature.
It's what let's God be Good. The qualities He has that make Him different from us.
For instance, He's a creater, He's Holy, He's immortal and ever-living, He's justice, He's love, and more.

I agree regarding His justice. I've argued for this on this very thread. God is a loving God, but He is also a just God, which is why He gives everyone the chance for salvation,,,He would not be just if He didn't.

it is exactly because God is just and also loving because left to ourselves freewill or no freewill we would be lost - for how do we or could we like or love or hate what we do not like or love or hate or even dream what we do not dream - twinc

 

[GodsGrace]

it is exactly because God is just and also loving because left to ourselves freewill or no freewill we would be lost - for how do we or could we like or love or hate what we do not like or love or hate or even dream what we do not dream - twinc

Why doesn't God save everyone?

 

[aspen]

The subject of free or not so free will or wills..we do have two!?

It's a long one again..bear with me ....think of it as an Easter special....

This subject of ‘free’-will is not One-dimensional in the least. It must be discussed with several variables in mind at the same time. Folks get disillusioned quite quickly when they only think on one plane at a time. It is not for starter folks, as in a Christianity 101 class.

Why most well-intentioned folks given up on a subject like this is because they first do not frame the subject and goal/objectives correctly. Is it about will? It is about pre-knowledge? Is it about God calling? Is it about Adam’s ‘first’ and ‘last’ spiritual condition? Is it about our birth condition? Its it about the outer mind…etc

We must start with a basic understanding of who we are, in relation to Adam, Christ and God, separately and together.

Who is I or me anyway?

Well the ‘I’ is brought into existence from the actions of man and God. Humans impregnate and conceive human soulish beings, physical beings with a physical DNA; God impregnates and conceives human spiritual beings, with spiritual DNA, markings of God. We become a living soul with both type of DNA, one for the spirit and one for the soul.

Adam was created with an ‘unfinished’ spirit (no image of Christ). He was created in the image of himself as where the angels. Adam was of course also a soul and made of flesh.

Now to take was @Taken has effectively said in many posts, in my word, we have spirit (communicate, intuition, love of God) of the heart that has its own will and thoughts. We also have a soul of the brain that also has a will, a mind with thoughts. WE HAVE TWO WILLS...

Adam had the fully capacity of both his spirit will and soulish will. These wills were created in a limited fashion as he was made of flesh. He was not a god. There was harmony with both of his wills, until an outside agent brought imbalance. Adam chose from his soulish will over his spirit will. And we know the rest of the story.

He chose thinking of no consequences in using his outer mind, what he could see and control, as he thought God does. It was a lie of course. Adam failed to ‘see’ the difference between his soul’s will that dictated the play and decision over his spirit’s will.

Upon disobedience, Adam’s spirit ‘will’ became very restricted as to his communication with God. God turned off the spigot of communications and his messages of love. Adam was now on his own to choose from his soulish side the way of life. Although God was still interested in Adam.

God did however leave an opening in his spirit to regain his knowledge and love of God, to reach out and know him again, to restore his human creation. Part of God’s plan all along.

If Adam ate of the tree of life in his disobedient state, Adam would be as a god as the fallen angels although in the form of flesh – a god-man if you will.

The un-regenerated spirit man today listens to the external spirits and minds of this world and his internal soulish mind. It is very easy to forget the spirit will inside him.

God’s centerpiece plan of mankind’s salvation is to form an image of himself within the spirit of man. Adam did not have this image born in his heart. Man, today under grace has this opportunity to have this image of God through his son’s image or spirit. He wants all to choose him, in love, from the heart.

To pre-knowledge and pre-destination….

God predestined or knew those that would come to him before they were born. He is outside the restrictions of time. He foreknew those that wanted to come to him and he was there to receive them at his time of choosing – at a time oblivious and unexpected to the one under this curse of sin and therefore, time.

The spirit side is where we reach out to God before coming to him. He chooses to take notice if our heart is genuine. We cannot choose God in this respect. We have limited ‘free’ will in spiritual things. The disobedience of Adam made it this way.

Our outer mind thinks of God because of our spirit will wants to reach out to God. So first the process of salvation begins and is sparked by our reaching out through our spirit. The outer soulish mind amplified it and analyzes it. If our heartfelt will wins over the carnal mind (our carnal mind gives way- yields) then and only then will the spirit of God come back into our hearts. If the carnal mind does not give way, we can believe in Christ all day long and it is still not a miraculous regeneration of our hearts. It does not perform a miracle with the presence of God via our carnal mind.

Yes, our soulish side has more ‘free’ will to do whatever our brain, outer mind, limbs can muster to do. It is still limited in choice of course. We are still in the flesh with limitations of the brain.

As a believer as we grow in faith, our spiritual soon take a strong hold to where it can control the functions of the soul - brain mind and will more easily. God is working within this spirit side of us to become the completed image of Christ.

Adam never had such a spiritual surgical operation performed on him.

APAK

Is this a personal revelation?