Saved By Fear?

[Stranger]

No. I do believe a problem here is your understanding of expressions.
Free will in a philosophical sense, and free will in the biblical sense.
Iow, the ability to choose,,,to make a moral choice.

Then there is no such thing as the will? Just free will?

Do you disagree with what I have explained about the will of God and your will and how different they are?

Stranger

 

[mjrhealth]

1 choice doesnt equal freewill. My dog can make choices but he does not have freewill

Well than choose death if you dont like the free will to choose life.

 

[OzSpen]

Foreknowledge simply means God knows them who are His. How is that another dimension? It simply proves that God elects.

Stranger

It doesn't state that God unconditionally elects / predestines people to salvation or damnation. It indicates that the all-knowing foreknowledge of God enables God to know who are saved.

How that election takes place is the difference between Arminianism and Calvinism, with your support of the latter and my support of Reformed Arminianism.

See other evidence in my post @ #260.

Oz

 

[Stranger]

1Pe_1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Eph_1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Good verses all. And all are the Word of God, correct?

The man Jesus Christ was foreordained. We are chosen. Proves my point.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

And all are the Word of God, correct?

nope, they are all the translated words of God, that do not even rise to Rhema in most cases now i guess. As you already have discovered by staying up late seeking for the v that might prove me wrong, surely?

strictly a trap to identify those who seek to commend themselves to each other, in this case, i think

 

[Stranger]

It doesn't state that God unconditionally elects / predestines people to salvation or damnation. It indicates that the all-knowing foreknowledge of God enables God to know who are saved.

How that election takes place is the difference between Arminianism and Calvinism, with your support of the latter and my support of Reformed Arminianism.

See other evidence in my post @ #260.

Oz

No, Scripture is clear how election takes place. God chooses. God foreknows the person, and chooses.

Stranger

 

[OzSpen]

Well, you don't have to be so mean about it

Thank you for helping me better understand how I communicate.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

No, Scripture is clear how election takes place. God chooses. God foreknows the person, and chooses.

Stranger

You are not listening to the Scriptures I present. See: An explanation of simple foreknowledge.

So, God frees the will of all human beings to say yea or nay to the Gospel of salvation when it is preached or taught (Titus 2:11 NIRV), which states, 'God’s grace has now appeared. By his grace, God offers to save all people'. Please tell me where unconditional election is in that verse. The ESV translates as, 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'.

Further evidence of the freed will is implied by the admonitions for people to turn to God. See Prov. 1:23; Isa.31:6; Ezek 14:6; 18:32; Joel 2:13-14; Matt 18:3; Acts 3:19;
Prov 1:23,Joel 2:28, Ezek 18:27-30, Isa 32:15, Acts 2:36-38,Zech 12:10 ...

The call to repent has a similar connotation: 1 Kings 8:47; Matt 32:1; Mk 1;15; Lk 13:3, 5; Acts 2:38; 17:30). The call to believe has the same implication of the freedom to choose to respond or reject the call. See: 2 Chron 20:20; Isa 43:10; John 6:29; 14:1; Acts 16:31; Phil 1:29; 1 John 3:23.

Unconditional election can't handle these kinds of verses because they link God's choice with human responsibility. I consider that the Bible teaches election but it is conditional election and not an autocratic God's choice to save not many and to damn a whole lot.

My view is that such a God who propagates double-predestination is a monster. See: Is a Calvinistic God a contradiction when compared with the God revealed in Scripture?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Then there is no such thing as the will? Just free will?

Do you disagree with what I have explained about the will of God and your will and how different they are?

Stranger

Does the will of God include his sovereign will to create all the evil in our world?

 

[mjrhealth]

Good verses all. And all are the Word of God, correct?

The man Jesus Christ was foreordained. We are chosen. Proves my point.

Stranger

What point, they where chosen from the very beginning, even Judas, they have the "choice. , the free will "option" to walk away as even Christ did have the option,

Luk_22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

but they"choose" by there own "free will" to walk knowing the hardship that will follow.

 

[aspen]

So this free will is limited to choosing to believe that Jesus died for our sins or not? That’s it?

 

[OzSpen]

No, Scripture is clear how election takes place. God chooses. God foreknows the person, and chooses.

Stranger

Still not answering the issues I raise but you head off into your Calvinistic stereotype and hope I don't notice. So, 'God foreknows the person, and chooses'. What does that mean? Are you saying that God doesn't foreknow the person's choices?

If you don't address what I write when you back quote, I'll not reply again to you. I put a lot of time into responding to your Calvinistic God's soteriology. That will cease if you continue what you do with others and me.

Why can't you engage in a two-way dialogue that deals with the issues the other people raise against Calvinism? What keeps you so fixated?

Oz

 

[forrestcupp]

FC,

If God unconditionally elects some people to salvation and He made that decision before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4-5), there is absolutely no point in evangelism.

I talked this over with a Presbyterian Minister who believes in TULIP. I asked: Why don't you do outreach evangelism in your city? His response was: "God will bring them in". By the way, I used to preach in his church.

Matt 28:19-20 should be relegated to the irrelevant and unnecessary if this view is maintained. I am not convinced that is the case.

Oz

Yeah, I agree. If that's true, there is no point in evangelism because those that God has chosen can't help but to come to Him. So why should we bother doing anything if it's inevitable, whether we evangelize or not? Yet we're commanded to preach to the world and make disciples.

 

[OzSpen]

Good verses all. And all are the Word of God, correct?

The man Jesus Christ was foreordained. We are chosen. Proves my point.

Stranger

Again, you don't respond to what I wrote.

 

[OzSpen]

So this free will is limited to choosing to believe that Jesus died for our sins or not? That’s it?

To whom are you addressing this question?

 

[Dcopymope]

I believe you're quoting Romans 8:30
Why not start with Romans 8:29 ??

Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

You can't pick and choose your verses, they have to be in context.
God FOREKNEW who would pick HIM, He predestined these people to be conformed to the image of His Son.

The predestination is referring to the METHOD by which those who pick God would be saved, it does not refer to individual salvation of persons.

What you believe goes against every biblical idea.
If God desires all to be saved, as 1 Timothy tell us, why does He not just save everyone???
1 Timothy 2:3-4
Do you suppose Paul was totally confused in what he was saying?
When preaching, was Jesus speaking to EVERYONE, or was He just speaking to these predestined persons you speak of?

Can it be that God desires that all men be saved but there is a condition and that condition is that WE have to choose HIM??
John 3:16 is simple and to the point...

In every biblical writing you find that men are judged by their deeds and by belief in God. Nowhere does it say that God chooses who will be saved, only HOW they will be saved. THIS was predestined.

It does actually, plenty of times. Not only did Jesus state that no one has access to the Father except through him, he also says this is the case for him as well. No one gets to Jesus Christ except those the Father brought to him. In order for anyone to choose him, he has to enable us to be able to choose him first to start with.

(Philippians 1:29-30) "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; {30} Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me."

Your ability to actually believe in God comes from God's will, not our will, and Jesus made that very clear, so did Paul, and I'm sure we all know the scriptures pertaining to the carnal mind. John 3:16 may be simple and to the point, but sometimes the simple answer isn't good enough. So the foreknowing comes before the predestination, or the method as to how one is saved. Is it Gods wish that any perish? No, but I really don't see how your explanation is any different than Calvinism when it comes down to it, since who gets saved is still based primarily on his omniscience, and not on his will. No matter how you want to spin that, the fact is God does the choosing, whether that choosing is according to "predestination" as you define predestination or according to what he knows doesn't really change much. God is sovereign, and he will have mercy and compassion for whoever he chooses to. This doesn't mean those he refuses to show mercy for is automatically doomed to the Lake of Fire, which brings me to your last question.

Again, it depends on US as to who will be saved.
What kind of a God would choose some for salvation and some for hell?

I'll rephrase this; What kind of God would choose some to the first Resurrection unto salvation and others to the second Resurrection of judgement? You see what I did there? I didn't say God chooses some to hell. Whose name gets written in the book of life is entirely up to him, and it will be primarily according to their works, not according to whether or not they believe in Jesus. When Jesus said all who don't believe in him are condemned already, he wasn't referring to hell itself, he was referring to the throne judgement.

 

[aspen]

To whom are you addressing this question?

Anyone advocating for free will

 

[Dcopymope]

So this free will is limited to choosing to believe that Jesus died for our sins or not? That’s it?

We can choose Jesus only after the Father chooses us and draws our heart to Jesus. At some point after, the choice will be yours to believe in Jesus. You put the words of the gospel into someone, and God will take it from there. This is how I currently understand it. I think actually spreading the gospel is what is missing in this discussion of how free will works in relation to God.

 

[Taken]

Taken,

I am not speaking about choice in regard to a burger vs fish and chips. This is choice in regard to salvation.

And? Did I say or imply anything so flippant that you felt the need for that comment?

The freeing of the will to accept or reject salvation is clearly stated in Titus 2:11,

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Uh, that says nothing of "freeing of the will"..
Freewill was not a new phenomenon.
OT men exercised their freewill.

The highlight him bringing "salvation", that men could receive without the Law, without waiting until the end of their natural lives, (after having been obedient TO the law).

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Stranger]

You are not listening to the Scriptures I present. See: An explanation of simple foreknowledge.

So, God frees the will of all human beings to say yea or nay to the Gospel of salvation when it is preached or taught (Titus 2:11 NIRV), which states, 'God’s grace has now appeared. By his grace, God offers to save all people'. Please tell me where unconditional election is in that verse. The ESV translates as, 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'.

Further evidence of the freed will is implied by the admonitions for people to turn to God. See Prov. 1:23; Isa.31:6; Ezek 14:6; 18:32; Joel 2:13-14; Matt 18:3; Acts 3:19;
Prov 1:23,Joel 2:28, Ezek 18:27-30, Isa 32:15, Acts 2:36-38,Zech 12:10 ...

The call to repent has a similar connotation: 1 Kings 8:47; Matt 32:1; Mk 1;15; Lk 13:3, 5; Acts 2:38; 17:30). The call to believe has the same implication of the freedom to choose to respond or reject the call. See: 2 Chron 20:20; Isa 43:10; John 6:29; 14:1; Acts 16:31; Phil 1:29; 1 John 3:23.

Unconditional election can't handle these kinds of verses because they link God's choice with human responsibility. I consider that the Bible teaches election but it is conditional election and not an autocratic God's choice to save not many and to damn a whole lot.

My view is that such a God who propagates double-predestination is a monster. See: Is a Calvinistic God a contradiction when compared with the God revealed in Scripture?

Oz

I have always said that Christ paid for all. That salvation is offered to all. That doesn't discount the 'election of God'. Election is not being addressed in (Titus 2:11). So?

Election does not remove mans will. As I have said many times already. God not only chooses who are His, who will be saved, but He has chosen the way in which they come to that knowledge and are saved. Through the exercise of their will. (2 Thess. 2:13) "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" See? God chooses. The Spirit acts upon the one selected. The one selected believes.

Election does not remove man's responsibility. It simply maintains the true order. God chooses, then man chooses. If you want to talk about a so-called double predestination, don't send me to a link. Explain yourself.

As I have said, if you want to make God a monster for having an election then you make God a monster for creating a salvation that doesn't save everyone.

Stranger