Saved By Fear?

[aspen]

I'm one of those, as the Bible teaches it and I've provided biblical support above.

I have to say - i have moved to a place of questioning regarding this issue. I used to have a strong opinion - today, my mind is not made up. Suprisingly for me, i lean towards determinism, yet I reject the idea that God created people for damnation. I am open to teaching on the subject, however so this thread is helpful. I will go back and read your posts

 

[Stranger]

No I believe what I have being taught, this bit

Mat_11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

and this bit

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

you could have it to if you asked.

Tel me which God do you worship, teh NIV, KJV, NSV , NKJ, God doesnt change, apparently His word can...

You didn't answer my question but want to now ask me a question. Tell me first, is the Bible the Word of God or not?

Stranger

 

[OzSpen]

I have to say - i have moved to a place of questioning regarding this issue. I used to have a strong opinion - today, my mind is not made up. Suprisingly for me, i lean towards determinism, yet I reject the idea that God created people for damnation. I am open to teaching on the subject, however so this thread is helpful. I will go back and read your posts

aspen,

How do you define 'determinism'? When a person accepts this position, that person will need to accept the consequences that flow from that philosophical / theological perspective.

Oxford dictionaries online defines 'determinism' as:

The doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes regarded as external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions (Oxford dictionaries online 2018. s.v. determinism).​

If this doctrine is applied to God, it means that all human and other actions in the universe are determined by God himself.

What has influenced you to pursue this view, 'i lean towards determinism'?

See my article: Does God create all the evil in the world?

Oz

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Tell us about it.

No thank you

 

[bbyrd009]

Tell me first, is the Bible the Word of God or not?

getting a little ridic there imo Stranger; The Bible will plainly tell you the truth in this matter, when you are ready to face it

 

[APAK]

Paul does not agree with you.

Could you please explain then
Philomen 1:14
but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

Paul would seem to believe in free will.
Thanks.

GOdsGrace: Just God back from the movie Paul (the apostle). It is a great movie, go and see it if you can. There is one scene there with Paul and a Roman that suggests we do not have free will to choose God even though we feel remorse and sorrow inside.

 

[aspen]

What would Ted do? Rollo

 

[forrestcupp]

This thread is one where you know nobody is going to change their mind, but you can't help following it anyway, even though it became circular about 15 pages ago. It's like a car wreck that you can't help but to look at when you drive by.

 

[aspen]

aspen,

How do you define 'determinism'? When a person accepts this position, that person will need to accept the consequences that flow from that philosophical / theological perspective.

Oxford dictionaries online defines 'determinism' as:

The doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes regarded as external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions (Oxford dictionaries online 2018. s.v. determinism).​

If this doctrine is applied to God, it means that all human and other actions in the universe are determined by God himself.

What has influenced you to pursue this view, 'i lean towards determinism'?

See my article: Does God create all the evil in the world?

Oz

There are degrees of determinism. I am a therapist and have been interested in nature vs. nurture themes since college.

 

[Jun2u]

It bears repeating. People just don’t know how to read let alone understand Scriptures.

Normally when so-called “Christians” speak of “free will” what they really mean is they have a free will to choose for God, not understanding they can’t because they are spiritually dead.

Paul does not agree with you.

Sure he does. He wrote Ephesians Chapters I and II especially for those that think they have free will.

Could you please explain then
Philomen 1:14
but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so thns Iat your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

Sorry, but your understanding of Philemon 1:14 is incorrect. Paul was appealing to Philemon’s goodness and willingness as a Christian to return Onesimus. Big difference from “free will” to “willingness.”

Paul would seem to believe in free will

Seem but unlikely as already mentioned he wrote Ephesians I and II.

To God Be The Glory

 

[mjrhealth]

You didn't answer my question but want to now ask me a question. Tell me first, is the Bible the Word of God or not?

Stranger

NO. Unless you worship 40 differnt Gods which one is it, NIV KJ NKJ NSV ASV .... which God do you worship. I can buy a manual about how to fix cars, it may mention Fords, that does not make it a book about Fords. God doesnt change so pick your God

 

[mjrhealth]

yet I reject the idea that God created people for damnation

I 100% agree, God created man out of Love, not hate.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

What would Ted do? Rollo

Well, how would I know?
Why don't you ask him?

 

[OzSpen]

There are degrees of determinism. I am a therapist and have been interested in nature vs. nurture themes since college.

So, what is your basic understanding of the dimensions of determinism? Do you understand such a theology as Christian determinism?

 

[OzSpen]

It bears repeating. People just don’t know how to read let alone understand Scriptures.

Normally when so-called “Christians” speak of “free will” what they really mean is they have a free will to choose for God, not understanding they can’t because they are spiritually dead.

Could Adam and Eve, spiritually dead, respond to God with their free will? See Ge 3:8-13 NIV):

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”

11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”

12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”​

From when sin entered the world, those spiritually dead in sin - starting with Adam and Eve - could respond to God by use of their free will.

Could you be the one who joins us in 'just don’t know how to read let alone understand Scriptures' (your words)?

Oz

 

[APAK]

Here's the story of Rollo Tamasi

So is the main character Hungarian?..

 

[bbyrd009]

yet I reject the idea that God created people for damnation.

I 100% agree, God created man out of Love, not hate.

"damnation" is surely a much-abused concept; "extinction" however, that we can observe, right

 

[Dcopymope]

The way you write confuses me. I like to be very clear.

So let's make what you believe and what I believe very clear since you're saying my answer is the same as Calvin's. May it never be!

Calvin:
God predestined, from the beginning of time who would be saved and who would not be saved -- and this not based on anything. He just picked some. So some are going to heaven and some are going to hell depending on what God decided way back when. Jesus died only for those who were already destined for heaven, He did not die for the whole world or for all men.

Me:
God foreknew who would be saved. He predestined these people to be saved through His Son Jesus Christ and to be made to be like Him. He predestined the method of salvation, not who would be saved. All men can choose to be saved or not. The Father draws ALL men to Himself and it's up to the person to choose if he will serve God and end up in heaven. God is a loving God and gives the same opportunity to all. There is no partiality with God...all men are the same to Him.


If you read carefully you'll find that the difference is akin to day and night,,,a loving God and a God who has no feelings for His created beings and that could easily send them to hell forever through no fault of their own.

Please don't tell me my words are the same as Calvin's.
BTW, they are not MY words, but the words of the New Testament. THIS is what the New Testament teaches.

I like to believe the bible and have trust in God,
not a man.

"God foreknew who would be saved."

"All men can choose to be saved or not"

Ok, I see the difference as to the means by which a soul is saved, but not the end. God determined the method of salvation for those who he knew would choose him to start with. He draws all men to him, they can choose him, but all will not and can't possibly choose God because for that to happen they would actually have to hear the message of salvation to start with. So therefore, you still get to the same exact point, that some are destined to judgement no matter what. If it really was as simple as God just "drawing all men to him", then the new testament because a message of universalism and not a message of salvation by personal faith, by hearing the word. And once again, there is a difference between the fate of a soul being judgement and their fate being the Lake of Fire.

 

[aspen]

It bears repeating. People just don’t know how to read let alone understand Scriptures.

Normally when so-called “Christians” speak of “free will” what they really mean is they have a free will to choose for God, not understanding they can’t because they are spiritually dead.

Paul does not agree with you.

Sure he does. He wrote Ephesians Chapters I and II especially for those that think they have free will.

Could you please explain then
Philomen 1:14
but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so thns Iat your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

Sorry, but your understanding of Philemon 1:14 is incorrect. Paul was appealing to Philemon’s goodness and willingness as a Christian to return Onesimus. Big difference from “free will” to “willingness.”

Paul would seem to believe in free will

Seem but unlikely as already mentioned he wrote Ephesians I and II.

To God Be The Glory

Always start with an insult!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

So is the main character Hungarian?..

I'm the main character
I joined another forum in the past to catch the people using wrong doctrine and correcting them
All it did was get me banned