So, God does not plan rape, but you just told me multiple times that God plans everything that happens in some sense. So you need to make up your mind. Allowing is not planning. I plan my trip somewhere. I don't plan the disaster that might happen on that trip. I can plan for it, or try to, but let's say I have an accident. Did I plan the movement of the other vehicles? God planning for all eventualities is far different than God planning out his oppositions actions.
Yes. And I have explained to you multiple times that, in the plan of God, when man's choice is concerned, what transpires to be the choice that people make, or a nation make, or an individual make, is what obviously He allowed to happen. Now, it's either you don't understand what I am saying there is my understanding of God's plan, or you simply just refuse to believe that that is my understanding and keep putting words into my mouth that speak of something different to what I am saying. So, I believe it is you who needs a making up of mind.
You keep arguing that allowing is not planning, when I did not even argued that allowing is planning. What I'm saying is that what God had allowed to happen, is what He had in His plan to happen. You keep giving analogies about planning, when I already told you that, how God plans is way far different than how you plan.
Planning depends a lot in the character, capabilities, and wisdom of the planner. Do you realize now the difference?
Why are you even now a believer in Christ? Would you say that it was God's plan that you got to hear the gospel and had the choice to believe or not in Christ? Or would you say that, that was all just by chance or came to pass in random?
If God plans the devil's moves, he is essentially the devil.
God does not decide for the devil nor for any man. What God does is allow to happen what the devil or the man decides to do.
Again if this is the best of all possible worlds, some sins could not be prevented by God, and this still be a place where freedom exists. It could not be boot camp if you and I didn't have free will, and I mean libertarian Free Will, not just the freedom to choose what God chose for us already. I happen to believe infants go to be with God, so although the thought of them dying isn't pleasant, God was likely saving thier souls by cutting off thier existence. But even that was done because of men's disobedience.
Best of all possible worlds? What possible worlds? And we do not read any of that in scriptures, at least as far as I know. What world we have now is without a doubt, the only world that was perfectly made to accomplish and bring out the will, purpose, pleasure, and glory of God. Salvation of man is just part of the plan of God that is unfolding.
You said "...
some sins could not be prevented by God,...". You really believe that? Not that God allows sin to happen, necessarily means that God could not prevent them. Do you really see God as being that?
You said of infants "
God was likely saving their souls by cutting off their existence." Where is that coming from? Surely, not from scriptures. God can, as He had in the Exodus, killed all (the young and old alike) the firstborn in the land of Egypt, according to His will and purpose. Why even the young firstborn infants and children? And you like the answer to be because God was saving them? If that was saving them, then what was the blood of the lamb at the doorpost for?
God makes plans according to his knowledge of what men will do.
I had already addressed this and gave my counter argument on that in my previous posts.
"this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."Acts 2:23
Here's one that might surprise you coming from someone who is not teaching everything predestined.
"The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel DETERMINED BEFORE to be done. "(Acts 4:26-28)
Yes, by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, yet all these men were all guilty in putting Him to death. So we see, there God's decretive will concerning Jesus Christ and involving the choices of men, and man's responsibility, two seemingly irreconcilable truths, happening side by side. That's the wisdom of God demonstrated right there with and in Christ.
What did God determine before to do? To die for me and you of course!
Well yes that's one, but that is not all of it. Everything you read there written in that passage about that were all foreordained by God to happen exactly as they had happened, and without fail.
Why? Notice that it says they were gathered against God. If God was doing the planning, they would have been gathered for him, not against.
The sacrifice of Christ is a holy and acceptable offering to God and he didn’t force anyone to kill Jesus.
Peter and John expressed in their prayer that people came to do what was determined, but it doesn’t say that God predestined/caused/forced anyone to betray and kill Jesus, because then God would be the only reason for their sin. (You’re not guilty of something if God is the one who made you do it.) Jesus is said to have laid down his own life, so we know that was his plan. To lay it down.
They went after Jesus on their own accord, and this was known from the foundation of the world. I rest my case on God planning according to his foreknowledge.
You said "
If God was doing the planning, they would have been gathered for him, not against." I find this a strange argument. So who does the planning, if not God? Also, not because they were gathered against God that that necessarily would not be God's plan. In fact that is God's will, and so could not be anything but part of His plan.
That's right. All of those people had acted freely according to their will. And they were all part of that which scriptures revealed was predetermined by God's hand and counsel. And So I repeat, so we see, there God's decretive will concerning Jesus Christ and involving the men and their choices, and man's responsibility, two seemingly irreconcilable truths, happening side by side. That's the wisdom of God demonstrated right there with and in Christ.
Yes, I think it's just right to rest your case now.
Tong
R0332