Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

Again, what are you trying to say? If they were born unable to respond to God, he would have nothing to give up on, because he never tried to reach them. Of course, they are in a worse situation if they became unredeemable, but they put themselves in that situation.
Actually, God hardening already hardened people is a contradiction for those who think Romans teaches God just chooses some and passes by the others. If they were just destined to be passed by, there would be no need of God working in them in any way. If they were born to be damned, ( non elect) what need is there to further harden them?

You find it difficult to understand what I am saying, perhaps because you only think and look at things in your time when you must be thinking and looking at things from the beginning of time. Think and consider all of the men and women, young and old, the peoples in all the earth, who now are already dead, who lived in a civilization different from yours today. In other words, you must be reading scriptures with this in mind and in this context.

You asked "what are you trying to say?" That salvation is God's choice, not man's. So don't look for the choice that is not for man. And as I pointed out, the choice for man when he is brought into the world, is the choice between good and evil, between life and death. Consider now these scriptures that speaks of man in general:

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

No man is with excused. All are guilty of sin. And what did God do? God gave them up to uncleanness (Rom.1:24), God gave them up to vile passions (Rom. 1:26). Now, realize this, what God had done as written in Romans 1:28, God gave them over to a debased or depraved mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful.

So, we can infer from that, that is the general situation of mankind. All mankind are condemned to death. God, in His wrath in the days of Noah, killed all of mankind, and had chosen to spare a remnant out of Noah and 7 of his family. Now go ahead and ask yourself these questions at this point, were there people saved from sin and hell during the days from Adam to the flood? How were they saved? From the time after the flood in the days of Noah, except that the wickedness that was there before the flood was no more, had the situation of man changed, or had man changed? Evidently not. You can read about the men and their works from Noah to Abraham. Now, in Genesis 12:1-3, what do you read there? It is about what God will do, is it not? Can you tell us what you understand there that God had revealed He will do?

You said "If they were born unable to respond to God, he would have nothing to give up on, because he never tried to reach them." Who is saying that man is born unable to respond to God? So your argument there is not against me, but perhaps for somebody else. Though, in a sense there is some truth in that, for being born an infant, he sure can't respond to God. But here's my take on that. Man is by nature, one who have knowledge of good and evil, which I understand is the reason why man will surely die. What I am saying here goes back to scriptures in Genesis.

You said "Of course, they are in a worse situation if they became unredeemable, but they put themselves in that situation." I don't believe there is such thing as unredeemable. When God give them up to uncleanness, to vile passions, to a debased or depraved mind, it is not that they become unredeemable, but were left alone by God to their will. Anytime God wills to saved any of them, will they not be saved?

You said "If they were born to be damned, ( non elect) what need is there to further harden them?" This argument is really not for me, for I don't say that they were born to be damned.

Tong
R0334

 

[Renniks]

You said "If they were born to be damned, ( non elect) what need is there to further harden them?" This argument is really not for me, for I don't say that they were born to be damned.

But you read Romans 9 that way. Again, if someone is not irresistibly saved, as you imply is always the case, they are by default irresistibly damned. If that's the case, what need would there be for God to harden them?

 

[Tong2020]

"ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye. shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh. findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

Everyone, not only some.

Try to consider the audience, to whom Jesus was telling those things. Was it to Gentiles who do not believe the God of Israel, the "Father" as Jesus referred to Him and who do not know the "Law and the Prophets", or was it to the Jews?

Salvation is of God, but contingent on men believing.

"12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

I disagree. Salvation is of God and not of man, and His salvation is by His grace (Eph.2:8), and He does it through the sanctification of the Holy Spirit and through faith or belief in the truth (2 Thess. 2:13).

And t you didn't answer my question. Do those passed by have another choice besides damnation?

I already answered that question sir. Would you like me to say it again? The choice for man when he is brought into the world, is a choice between good and evil, between life and death. Now, if you want to imply by your question that salvation is a choice of man, I have already told you that it is not. Because salvation is God's choice.

Tong
R0335

 

[Tong2020]

Ah, the old two wills of God argument! How predictable. Joh Piper fan, perhaps?

God cannot ordain sin and be a Holy God.
Obviously, when you say they acted freely, you mean something other than the normal definition of free. If an all powerful being ordained that I sin, can I choose some other course of action?
God says he doesn't will that any should perish, but you keep confirming that you know otherwise. Very strange.

Two wills of God argument? John Piper? What are you talking about?

You said "God cannot ordain sin and be a Holy God." Why do you like and keep arguing against something I did not say? You are always reading into my post instead of reading out of my post.

Why do you resist the truth there in the passage you quoted and referred to? The passage is clear when it said "27 For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done". Do you know what that is that Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do? That's right, to crucify Jesus to His death. And while that was foreordained by God, God holds them all responsible for that, which means that, it was their choice and doing that Jesus was crucified to His death. Both are truths then, though to our human mind, seems to be irreconcilable. That is why I said that we see there, God's decretive will concerning Jesus Christ, and man's responsibility, two seemingly irreconcilable truths, happening side by side. And I also told you that that's the wisdom of God demonstrated right there with and in Christ. But you don't believe. Why? Perhaps because you want to go with your human understanding and reasoning than go with what scriptures say, so that you find that as foolishness.

Related to that, may I know what you think of this. There was a time that God scattered the house of Israel among the nations, for God had judged them according to their ways and their deeds. Now, wherever they went, they profaned God's holy name. What if I tell you that blessing came to Israel and not disaster, what can you say of God?

Tong
R0336

 

[Tong2020]

But you read Romans 9 that way. Again, if someone is not irresistibly saved, as you imply is always the case, they are by default irresistibly damned. If that's the case, what need would there be for God to harden them?

No sir, I don't.

Tong
R0337

 

[Tong2020]

No we all are condemned for our sin, not for Adams and I already said that Adams fall was the start of everyone sinning. That's not the same as being condemned for someone else's sin.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

What is you understanding of "in Adam all die"?

What is you understanding of "in Christ all shall be made alive"?

Tong
R0338

 

[Candidus]

Renniks,

[I'm condemned because of Adam's sin? No, I'm not.]

Yes you are, in fact every sinner is. We all sinned at one point in time, the fall.
ylt;23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --

We all sinned and died in Adam...

23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --
If a person gets the facts of the fall wrong, they will never get everything else right.

But I never sinned when Adam sinned, did I! You can't prove it. I was not even alive, so how could I rebel against God before I ever existed?

There is no passage in all of Scripture that asserts such a wild theological fiction as people committing an act before they ever existed.
What is meant by "all men" in this passage.; is it all mankind without exception? Or is it all those in earshot of this statement that can comprehend it? What I am saying, is it speaking strictly just to adults? For it is true that all adults have "sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God." (Rom. 3:23). The verse prior (22) says, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe..." Can infants display "faith in Jesus Christ"? Verse 26 says, "that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." The contrast is sin vs. salvation by faith in Jesus Christ. Once again, if infants have personally sinned in their pre-existence in the Fall, how cruel it is for God to leave them hopeless and without remedy for several years before they can ever speak and comprehend, actively responding to the Gospel by casting their faith on Jesus Christ as the Remedy for their "sins."

Remember... someone said,

"If a person gets the facts of the fall wrong, they will never get everything else right."

 

[Renniks]

Try to consider the audience, to whom Jesus was telling those things. Was it to Gentiles who do not believe the God of Israel, the "Father" as Jesus referred to Him and who do not know the "Law and the Prophets", or was it to the Jews?

Everyone means everyone. If your preacher says in front of a Gentile congregation that Christ died for everyone, does that somehow exclude all the Jews? That would be a silly conclusion.

disagree. Salvation is of God and not of man, and His salvation is by His grace (Eph.2:8), and He does it through the sanctification of the Holy Spirit and through faith or belief in the truth (2 Thess. 2:13).

I already answered that question sir. Would you like me to say it again? The choice for man when he is brought into the world, is a choice between good and evil, between life and death. Now, if you want to imply by your question that salvation is a choice of man, I have already told you that it is not. Because salvation is God's choice.

Tong
R0335

How does this answer my question." And you didn't answer my question. Do those passed by have another choice besides damnation?"
If the choice is between life and death, then the choice IS salvation or damnation.

 

[Renniks]

Two wills of God argument? John Piper? What are you talking about?

I'm talking about you saying God has two wills. Something about a prescriptive will and some other kind of will. All nonsense, of course.

You said "God cannot ordain sin and be a Holy God." Why do you like and keep arguing against something I did not say? You are always reading into my post instead of reading out of my post.

You say this and then you go right on and claim that God ordained evil and then you will claim you don't know what I'm talking about when I say God cannot ordain evil. Sigh.

Why do you resist the truth there in the passage you quoted and referred to? The passage is clear when it said "27 For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done". Do you know what that is that Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do? That's right, to crucify Jesus to His death. And while that was foreordained by God, God holds them all responsible for that, which means that, it was their choice and doing that Jesus was crucified to His death. Both are truths then, though to our human mind, seems to be irreconcilable. That is why I said that we see there, God's decretive will concerning Jesus Christ, and man's responsibility, two seemingly irreconcilable truths, happening side by side. And I also told you that that's the wisdom of God demonstrated right there with and in Christ. But you don't believe. Why? Perhaps because you want to go with your human understanding and reasoning than go with what scriptures say, so that you find that as foolishness.

No, there are not two seemingly irreconcilable truths here. God ordained that Jesus would have to die, correct. But he didn't ordain these people to do it. That's why, as i already said, they were gathered there in opposition to God's will. Jesus was going to have to die at some point regardless. The men who did it were responsible precisely because God did not ordain or condone their sin. He simply foresaw what would happen and placed Jesus in the right place to be crucified. If you can't see the blaring difference between God ordaining sin and God simply foreseeing it and using it for good, I can't help you understand.

Related to that, may I know what you think of this. There was a time that God sc

attered the house of Israel among the nations, for God had judged them according to their ways and their deeds. Now, wherever they went, they profaned God's holy name. What if I tell you that blessing came to Israel and not disaster, what can you say of God?

Tong
R0336

That he was being true to his promise and enduring with great patience people who had made themselves objects of wrath so that the gospel could spread to the rest of the world.

 

[Renniks]

No sir, I don't.

Tong
R0337

So, now you are telling me that Romans 9 is not about individuals' salvation? I'm glad you've seen the light.

 

[Renniks]

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

What is you understanding of "in Adam all die"?

What is you understanding of "in Christ all shall be made alive"?

Tong
R0338

First, the second part of the verse confirms universal atonement and prevenient grace. Second, the first part means everyone sins, just as Adam did.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Candidus,

Hello Candidus,
Lets see what is on your mind.

[But I never sinned when Adam sinned, did I! You can't prove it. I was not even alive, so how could I rebel against God before I ever existed?]

I cannot prove it, but thankfully SCRIPTURE does prove it beyond any doubt;
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;

[There is no passage in all of Scripture that asserts such a wild theological fiction as people committing an act before they ever existed.]
This section teaches it to any who understand it. before this passage Romans 3;23 taught it without dispute; read and learn here

from preceptaustin;
The aorist tense here is referred to as "timeless aorist" which gathers up the whole human race for all time into this condemnation (see also A T Robertson). There are no exceptions save Christ Jesus as Paul has made clear in the preceding indictment in (Ro 1:18-3:20)

Godet agrees writing that the aorist tense "transports us to the point of time when the result of human life appears as a completed fact, the hour of judgment."

MacDonald writes that the aorist tense pictures the fact that "Everybody sinned in Adam; when he sinned, he acted as the representative for all his descendants. But men are not only sinners by nature; they are also sinners by practice.

Leon Morris - The aorist pictures this as past, but also as a completion. It certainly does not mean that sin belongs wholly in the past, for Paul goes on to a present tense when he says fall short of the glory of God. Elsewhere in Romans the glory is often future (Ro 2:7, 10; 5:2; 8:18, 21). But there is also a present glory, for God “made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ” (2 Cor. 4:6; cf. 2 Cor. 3:18; John 17:22). But this is something Christ produces in believers. Sinners fall short of it. Not only did all sin in the past, but they continually come short of God’s glory. (Ibid)

Vincent writes that the aorist tense means "looking back to a thing definitely past — the historic occurrence of sin."

Remember that men and women sin because we are sinners by nature. A plum tree bears plums because it is a plum tree. The fruit is the result of its nature. Sin is the fruit of a sinful heart. “The heart is deceitful above all things” (Jer 17:9).




["If a person gets the facts of the fall wrong, they will never get everything else right."]

Now you have the facts!

 

[Tong2020]

Everyone means everyone. If your preacher says in front of a Gentile congregation that Christ died for everyone, does that somehow exclude all the Jews? That would be a silly conclusion.

You must consider the audience sir. While Jesus says everyone in that passage in Matthew 7, only those who believes in the God that Jesus refers to, could only be the one who can call to Him and ask. So, your analogy there does not apply.

How does this answer my question." And you didn't answer my question. Do those passed by have another choice besides damnation?"
If the choice is between life and death, then the choice IS salvation or damnation.

You just don't like my answer.

You said "If the choice is between life and death, then the choice IS salvation or damnation." No sir. The choice between life and death, is ever a choice between God and Satan. It is not a choice of salvation and damnation, but is a choice between not offending and offending God, between good and evil, between not sinning and sinning. I repeat, salvation is not a choice of man but is God's.

Tong
R0339

 

[Candidus]

Candidus,

Hello Candidus,
Lets see what is on your mind.

[But I never sinned when Adam sinned, did I! You can't prove it. I was not even alive, so how could I rebel against God before I ever existed?]

I cannot prove it, but thankfully SCRIPTURE does prove it beyond any doubt;
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Notice that it says absolutely NOTHING about me personally sinning when Adam Fell.

Paul isn't preaching to infants, he is preaching to adults.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;

"Much more" the grace of God...

Whatever Adam did does not compare to what God's grace does "much more." So is damnation is Universal, so is Salvation "much more." Once again, if this is speaking of Personal Sins and accountability, we are all already saved.

[There is no passage in all of Scripture that asserts such a wild theological fiction as people committing an act before they ever existed.]
This section teaches it to any who understand it. before this passage Romans 3;23 taught it without dispute; read and learn here

from preceptaustin;
The aorist tense here is referred to as "timeless aorist" which gathers up the whole human race for all time into this condemnation (see also A T Robertson). There are no exceptions save Christ Jesus as Paul has made clear in the preceding indictment in (Ro 1:18-3:20)

Learn here... there is no such thing as a "timeless aorist," just an aorist tense. That's why he places it in parentheses. His conclusion is correct as to an event in the past that incorporates all mankind into Universal condemnation. Yet again, nothing in Scripture says anyone other than Adam personally sinned at the Fall. The effect condemns the Race; that is not in dispute.

Godet agrees writing that the aorist tense "transports us to the point of time when the result of human life appears as a completed fact, the hour of judgment."

MacDonald writes that the aorist tense pictures the fact that "Everybody sinned in Adam; when he sinned, he acted as the representative for all his descendants. But men are not only sinners by nature; they are also sinners by practice.

Leon Morris - The aorist pictures this as past, but also as a completion. It certainly does not mean that sin belongs wholly in the past, for Paul goes on to a present tense when he says fall short of the glory of God. Elsewhere in Romans the glory is often future (Ro 2:7, 10; 5:2; 8:18, 21). But there is also a present glory, for God “made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ” (2 Cor. 4:6; cf. 2 Cor. 3:18; John 17:22). But this is something Christ produces in believers. Sinners fall short of it. Not only did all sin in the past, but they continually come short of God’s glory. (Ibid)

Vincent writes that the aorist tense means "looking back to a thing definitely past — the historic occurrence of sin."

No disagreement here. Are you Iconclast?
Once again, nothing is said of my personally sinning when Adam Fell.

Remember that men and women sin because we are sinners by nature. A plum tree bears plums because it is a plum tree. The fruit is the result of its nature. Sin is the fruit of a sinful heart. “The heart is deceitful above all things” (Jer 17:9).

No one is accountable for personally sinning when they are born; that would make God the Author of sin.

["If a person gets the facts of the fall wrong, they will never get everything else right."]

Now you have the facts!

I have always had the facts! Thanks for admitting it!

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Candidus,
Are you Iconclast?

Yes indeed

 

[Tong2020]

I'm talking about you saying God has two wills. Something about a prescriptive will and some other kind of will. All nonsense, of course.

Well, I was not at all saying God has two wills, did I? Again you are reading into my posts and not reading out of my post. Strawman that you apparently always like to argue with in our exchanges.

You say this and then you go right on and claim that God ordained evil and then you will claim you don't know what I'm talking about when I say God cannot ordain evil. Sigh.

No sir. It's because you are reading into my post rather than reading out of it. See the above segment as an example of that. Now, go ahead and show my post where I claim something and the other post where I claim the contrary view.

No, there are not two seemingly irreconcilable truths here. God ordained that Jesus would have to die, correct. But he didn't ordain these people to do it.

Then you are asking us to forget about what the passage says as follows: 27 For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done" and instead believe what you say. That would not happen sir. For more than Jesus's death foreordained, even what Herod and Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel were to do was, as the quoted scriptures clearly says.

That's why, as i already said, they were gathered there in opposition to God's will. Jesus was going to have to die at some point regardless. The men who did it were responsible precisely because God did not ordain or condone their sin. He simply foresaw what would happen and placed Jesus in the right place to be crucified. If you can't see the blaring difference between God ordaining sin and God simply foreseeing it and using it for good, I can't help you understand.

No need to make me understand like you do. I understand what the passage says. You said "...they were gathered there in opposition to God's will." The scriptures said "...were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done". See the difference. Apparently you don't.

Renniks, do you not know that God at some time, used a nation and sent them to punish Israel? And this nation did not consciously serve God. This nation was like a rod in God's hand. And when God finished using this nation as His rod to punish Israel, He would punish them too for all that they have done. What can you say about that?

That he was being true to his promise and enduring with great patience people who had made themselves objects of wrath so that the gospel could spread to the rest of the world.

So now you can say that there is nothing wrong or questionable or irrational that God blessed them while wherever they went, they profaned God's holy name? Shall something evil such as that merit the blessing of God?

Your answer there is obviously wrong and far out. Scriptures tells us that God had done so not for their sake but for His name's sake. Do you even want to know what God did? If you don't know it yet, I'm sure you will be surprised to learn of it. Do you want to know?

Tong
R0340

 

[Tong2020]

So, now you are telling me that Romans 9 is not about individuals' salvation? I'm glad you've seen the light.

What I'm saying is that I am not reading Romans 9, as you say I read it ~ that some people were born to be damned.

Tong
R0341

 

[Renniks]

You must consider the audience sir. While Jesus says everyone in that passage in Matthew 7, only those who believes in the God that Jesus refers to, could only be the one who can call to Him and ask. So, your analogy there does not apply.

"He who seeks will find, applies to all. Why do you believe God is hiding himself from most people?

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye. shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh. findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. That's from Matthew.

For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. Luke 11:10

29 But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Proverbs 8:17

17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.
Jeremiah 29:13

13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
Matthew 7:7

7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
Luke 11:9

9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you
https://www.biblestudytools.com/acts/17-24-compare.html

• 29 But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Proverbs 8:17

17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.
Jeremiah 29:13

13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
Matthew 7:7

7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
Luke 11:9

9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
Acts 17:

24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us

 

[Tong2020]

First, the second part of the verse confirms universal atonement and prevenient grace. Second, the first part means everyone sins, just as Adam did.

So you interpret "in Adam all die" as to mean that everyone sins just as Adam did. And you interpret "in Christ all shall be made alive" as to mean universal atonement and prevenient grace. That is clearly another misuse of scriptures. But this time it's a big misuse.

"in Adam", what does that mean? What it means is the same sense with that "in Christ". Can you tell us what that means?

Tong
R0342

 

[Renniks]

No sir. The choice between life and death, is ever a choice between God and Satan

Good grief. What do you think salvation is? It starts with chosing God over Satan.