Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

You are just saying what you think God is, not what scripture says. I didn't say God made mistakes, BTW. And it's not about what I think. God said he regretted making men. God said he regretted making Saul King. How does that fit with his omniscience? Beats me. But it's not debatable.

Well, perhaps you did not say that God made mistakes, but you do read and take those scriptures, and so believe, that God regrets and repents having done some of the things He had done, something that sure runs contrary to divine nature, and against the truth about God in scriptures, and implies that God makes mistakes and is one whose work is not perfect, as though having such character and nature of man.

Yes, we read in scriptures God said He regretted making man and regretted making Saul king, which means He made mistakes. And you believe that, even while scriptures speaks all over scriptures that He is perfect, all wise, and all knowing. That is were the misuse of scriptures leads. I had already shown you that you misuse scriptures such as Isaiah 5:4. And this is obviously another instance of misuse. Well, as I said, I am beginning to realize that we know God differently. And you had affirmed it here. To you, God is one whose work is not perfect, and one who does not know what he had made or done, so that in time, when what he done turns out to be some kind of failure or not as He intended, He regrets having done what He had done. Well,....

On this issue, I'll leave you with these scriptures:

Genesis 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

I'm willing to leave some of that in the realm of mystery.

But what isn't mysterious is God's will. He does not hide from us what that is.

Thessalonians 4:3, KJV: "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:"

"For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men."

"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

There's a mystery in how God operates, but not in what God's will is.

You said "I'm willing to leave some of that in the realm of mystery." Of course you can always say that and do that each and every time you find yourself in such situation. And no man can stop you from doing that. But God can, if He wills, and in His time.

On this part, I'll leave you with this revealing scriptures concerning the salvation of God:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

We are bound to give thanks to God because He had chosen us for salvation from the beginning.

Tong
R0323

 

[Tong2020]

I'm quite aware of all these verses. I would ask what you think you are proving by quoting them? BTW, the proverbs verse needs to be read in context or it will be misunderstood. Solomon is talking about the heart that is committed to God, not just anyone's heart.
"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes,
But the Lord weighs the hearts."

See how this doesn't fit if God is irresistibly directing everyone's heart? Solomon was talking about his own heart, and even then, he was not always obedient and directed by God. God did not cause Solomon to fall away from him, but it still happened.

You said "Sovereignty is a word that gets thrown out there a lot, but what is it? A simple definition is: "supreme power or authority." So, I said, the Bible is the best place that could tell us about that. I quoted those scriptures, among others, that speaks of the sovereignty of God more than you take it to mean.

Regarding the Proverbs quote, context or no context, it does not take away the truth and my point that even the heart of a person, such as even that of the king, is in the hands of the Lord, that He can turn it whenever He do so wills to do. That somehow gives you an idea of the extent of God's sovereignty over man. You quoted Proverbs 21:2 and apparently misuse it as usual. It does not have anything to do with our discussion on God's sovereignty.

Tong
R0324

 

[Tong2020]

I can't figure how any Christian would have a problem with knowing that God can't violate his own character. If he could, would he be Worthy of worship? If God can do evil, how can he be a Holy God?
Of course God was just to destroy evil people. He said "thier every thought was only evil continually." That's hard for me to fathom. But I believe God is incapable of lying, in keeping with his character, so I believe him. If I believed God could violate his character, then I would have reason to question him.
As for why God created Eve, if he knew sin would happen, are you familiar with the concept of this being the best of all possible worlds? If that is true, the only question is, whether it would have been better to create a world where God would have to sacrifice himself, or to not create at all? Obviously, God chose sacrifice over selfishness, in keeping with his character. And in a sense, that means he created this world specifically for those who would choose to love him. That's an amazing thought, that in some sense all of creation was for you and me.

Well, I can't figure too how you put up that issue instead of addressing the argument I put up in my post for you to consider. And this is my argument: You said "Having supreme authority simply means God can do anything he likes as long as it doesn't violate his character." So, I said "I assume you believe you know when and what violates the character of God". And so, I asked the questions:

1.Did God violate His character, perhaps His loving, merciful, and longsuffering character, when He destroyed all mankind, saved a few, and killed all flesh on the earth in the flood at Noah's time?

2. Did God violate His character when He created Eve, despite knowing what Eve will do by her own free choice, and what evil it will bring to mankind?

So, I hope you would properly address the questions now. Thanks.

Tong
R0325

 

[Tong2020]

Yes context is important. And the context confirms that we have to remain in him after our initial commitment. It says nothing about the people who had just believed being incapable to believe. I find it amusing that you are doing exactly what you just claimed I did, trying to change what the passage clearly states, in this case, that some did believe.

The context only proves that, the "believing" that many were said to have as spoken in verse 30, was not the "believing" that Jesus was talking about. Read on at least until verse 37 and you will know what I am talking about. For to these men, said to believed in Jesus, Jesus said "I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you." He repeats that in verse 40. That puts verses 31 & 32 in the proper perspective.

Now, if you are talking about that kind of believing spoken of in verse 30, then I could agree that perhaps all men are capable of believing in that sense.

Tong
R0326

 

[Tong2020]

when you pick out or choose 5 tomatoes at the grocery store, you did not damn the other ones, they were simply past over and left.

Consider who the chosen people, the children of God, are according to these scriptures:

Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

According to those scriptures, we who believes in God and in Jesus Christ, are children of promise, as Isaac was, born according to the Spirit. So, we study the case of Isaac. Isaac is contrasted by Paul from Ishmael, in this way: Ishmael ~ born according to the flesh; Isaac ~ born according to the Spirit. Now, how was Isaac born according to the Spirit? Scriptures tells us about Isaac, that it was a decretive will of God, declaring it to Abraham and Sarah by way of a promise, that he will be born. A child of promise, as Paul refers to him. If not that God willed it, Isaac would not even had existed. Paul, in his epistle to the Christians in Galatia, tells them that they are the children of promise, as Isaac was. In what sense they are children of promise could be nothing but in the same sense as with Isaac.

Tong
R0327

 

[Tong2020]

This is all speculation. If there were such people in the crowd we know nothing about it. The fact that God gives up on people just confirms what I said about them choosing not to listen. Again, what are you trying to say? If they were hardened, they were not always of the devil... they weren't passed over for salvation, and were among those Christ died for.

No speculation there sir. That is what scriptures tells us.

You said "The fact that God gives up on people just confirms what I said about them choosing not to listen." To give up on people is to not do anything to change their minds nor situation. The truth is, when it is God who gives up on people, these people were rendered to be in a lot worst situation than they already are before God had given up on them. Regarding these people, read Romans 1. Regarding those whom God hardened, like Israel at that time, except a remnant according to the election of grace, read Romans 11.

Tong
R0328

 

[Tong2020]

Could man choose anything else if he wasn't chosen for salvation? It's a distinction without a difference.

The choice for man when he is brought into the world, is a choice between good and evil, between life and death. And it's no secret, all had chosen and will chose evil and death. All had sinned and will sin. All had chosen and will choose condemnation, that is, hell. That is the man and the reality of the man.

Now, salvation concerns God and is of God. It is God's choice, not man's. And God had, from the beginning, chosen a people (not all people) to be His people who shall continue to live with Him forever. Them He had chosen for salvation from sin, and death in Hell.

Tong
R0329

 

[Tong2020]

Like I said you believe God is less merciful and this proves it. You believe Paul when he said he desires salvation of the Jews, but not God when he says he's not willing that any perish.

And like I said, it is you who says that, not me. Why are you forcing words into my mouth?

That is all coming from your misuse of scriptures and misunderstanding of what I believe.

This is what I said "To the contrary, I say that even with that or perhaps even anything that Paul says regarding his desire concerning the salvation of his fellow Jews, he never will be able to surpass God in any and all aspect of God's character."

Tong
R0330

 

[Tong2020]

It is God's grace for salvation! That's what prevenient grace is. It's given to all, as I just showed from scripture.

You only think you showed from scriptures, but that does not mean you have showed it from scriptures.

Tong
R0331

 

[Tong2020]

So, God does not plan rape, but you just told me multiple times that God plans everything that happens in some sense. So you need to make up your mind. Allowing is not planning. I plan my trip somewhere. I don't plan the disaster that might happen on that trip. I can plan for it, or try to, but let's say I have an accident. Did I plan the movement of the other vehicles? God planning for all eventualities is far different than God planning out his oppositions actions.

Yes. And I have explained to you multiple times that, in the plan of God, when man's choice is concerned, what transpires to be the choice that people make, or a nation make, or an individual make, is what obviously He allowed to happen. Now, it's either you don't understand what I am saying there is my understanding of God's plan, or you simply just refuse to believe that that is my understanding and keep putting words into my mouth that speak of something different to what I am saying. So, I believe it is you who needs a making up of mind.

You keep arguing that allowing is not planning, when I did not even argued that allowing is planning. What I'm saying is that what God had allowed to happen, is what He had in His plan to happen. You keep giving analogies about planning, when I already told you that, how God plans is way far different than how you plan. Planning depends a lot in the character, capabilities, and wisdom of the planner. Do you realize now the difference?

Why are you even now a believer in Christ? Would you say that it was God's plan that you got to hear the gospel and had the choice to believe or not in Christ? Or would you say that, that was all just by chance or came to pass in random?

If God plans the devil's moves, he is essentially the devil.

God does not decide for the devil nor for any man. What God does is allow to happen what the devil or the man decides to do.

Again if this is the best of all possible worlds, some sins could not be prevented by God, and this still be a place where freedom exists. It could not be boot camp if you and I didn't have free will, and I mean libertarian Free Will, not just the freedom to choose what God chose for us already. I happen to believe infants go to be with God, so although the thought of them dying isn't pleasant, God was likely saving thier souls by cutting off thier existence. But even that was done because of men's disobedience.

Best of all possible worlds? What possible worlds? And we do not read any of that in scriptures, at least as far as I know. What world we have now is without a doubt, the only world that was perfectly made to accomplish and bring out the will, purpose, pleasure, and glory of God. Salvation of man is just part of the plan of God that is unfolding.

You said "...some sins could not be prevented by God,...". You really believe that? Not that God allows sin to happen, necessarily means that God could not prevent them. Do you really see God as being that?

You said of infants "God was likely saving their souls by cutting off their existence." Where is that coming from? Surely, not from scriptures. God can, as He had in the Exodus, killed all (the young and old alike) the firstborn in the land of Egypt, according to His will and purpose. Why even the young firstborn infants and children? And you like the answer to be because God was saving them? If that was saving them, then what was the blood of the lamb at the doorpost for?

God makes plans according to his knowledge of what men will do.

I had already addressed this and gave my counter argument on that in my previous posts.

"this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."Acts 2:23

Here's one that might surprise you coming from someone who is not teaching everything predestined.

"The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel DETERMINED BEFORE to be done. "(Acts 4:26-28)

Yes, by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, yet all these men were all guilty in putting Him to death. So we see, there God's decretive will concerning Jesus Christ and involving the choices of men, and man's responsibility, two seemingly irreconcilable truths, happening side by side. That's the wisdom of God demonstrated right there with and in Christ.

What did God determine before to do? To die for me and you of course!

Well yes that's one, but that is not all of it. Everything you read there written in that passage about that were all foreordained by God to happen exactly as they had happened, and without fail.

Why? Notice that it says they were gathered against God. If God was doing the planning, they would have been gathered for him, not against.
The sacrifice of Christ is a holy and acceptable offering to God and he didn’t force anyone to kill Jesus.
Peter and John expressed in their prayer that people came to do what was determined, but it doesn’t say that God predestined/caused/forced anyone to betray and kill Jesus, because then God would be the only reason for their sin. (You’re not guilty of something if God is the one who made you do it.) Jesus is said to have laid down his own life, so we know that was his plan. To lay it down.
They went after Jesus on their own accord, and this was known from the foundation of the world. I rest my case on God planning according to his foreknowledge.

You said "If God was doing the planning, they would have been gathered for him, not against." I find this a strange argument. So who does the planning, if not God? Also, not because they were gathered against God that that necessarily would not be God's plan. In fact that is God's will, and so could not be anything but part of His plan.

That's right. All of those people had acted freely according to their will. And they were all part of that which scriptures revealed was predetermined by God's hand and counsel. And So I repeat, so we see, there God's decretive will concerning Jesus Christ and involving the men and their choices, and man's responsibility, two seemingly irreconcilable truths, happening side by side. That's the wisdom of God demonstrated right there with and in Christ.

Yes, I think it's just right to rest your case now.

Tong
R0332

 

[Renniks]

lol...it i goofy
but The tomatoes were all gonna decay eventually anyway so 5 picked 5 tomatoes for my purposes does nothing saying I have to pick all of them in a 5 pic 5 that I didn't do anything to the other ones they were all going to decay if no one picked any of them they would have all decayed the fact that I had mercy in a sense on 5 of them and pick them to be eaten instead doesn't cause the other ones to decay

Yes, but it did leave them to die through no fault of Thier own. It condemned them to be useless although they were no more deserving of being condemned than the chosen. They aren't able to do anything but die, so it's the gardener who is to blame if they aren't made useful.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Yes, but it did leave them to die through no fault of Thier own. It condemned them to be useless although they were no more deserving of being condemned than the chosen. They aren't able to do anything but die, so it's the gardener who is to blame if they aren't made useful.

The point is, Adam's fall into sin and death placed every person in the same dead,condemned condition. No one deserves salvation, we all deserve condemnation. Thst is why it is mercy any get saved.

 

[Renniks]

The point is, Adam's fall into sin and death placed every person in the same dead,condemned condition. No one deserves salvation, we all deserve condemnation. Thst is why it is mercy any get saved.

I'm condemned because of Adam's sin? No, I'm not.

What the original sin did was to cause the human race to fall into the practice of sin.

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (Romans 5:12)
We
are born to imperfect parents, whose sin negatively influences us. We become accustomed to committing "minor" sins without regard to their negative impact on our lives and the lives of others. However, God, in His love,8 provided the means by which all people9 could become completely righteous before Him,10 thus inheriting eternal life.11

The Bible says that God has created people to be upright, but they have chosen to do evil.12 We are not condemned on the basis of Adam and Eve's original sin, but our own. Our condemnation is rightly deserved due to our rebellion and disobedience of God's laws. God is not responsible for our sin, but we are, because of our own lusts.13

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Renniks,

[I'm condemned because of Adam's sin? No, I'm not.]

Yes you are, in fact every sinner is. We all sinned at one point in time, the fall.
ylt;23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --
[What the original sin did was to cause the human race to fall into the practice of sin.]

We all sinned and died in Adam...we also commit our own sins.

rom3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --
If a person gets the facts of the fall wrong, they will never get everything else right.

 

[Renniks]

The truth is, when it is God who gives up on people, these people were rendered to be in a lot worst situation than they already are before God had given up on them. Regarding these people, read Romans 1. Regarding those whom God hardened, like Israel at that time, except a remnant according to the

Again, what are you trying to say? If they were born unable to respond to God, he would have nothing to give up on, because he never tried to reach them. Of course, they are in a worse situation if they became unredeemable, but they put themselves in that situation.
Actually, God hardening already hardened people is a contradiction for those who think Romans teaches God just chooses some and passes by the others. If they were just destined to be passed by, there would be no need of God working in them in any way. If they were born to be damned, ( non elect) what need is there to further harden them?

 

[Renniks]

The choice for man when he is brought into the world, is a choice between good and evil, between life and death. And it's no secret, all had chosen and will chose evil and death. All had sinned and will sin. All had chosen and will choose condemnation, that is, hell. That is the man and the reality of the man.

Now, salvation concerns God and is of God. It is God's choice, not man's. And God had, from the beginning, chosen a people (not all people) to be His people who shall continue to live with Him forever. Them He had chosen for salvation from sin, and death in Hell.

Tong
R0329

"ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye. shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh. findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

Everyone, not only some.

Salvation is of God, but contingent on men believing.

"12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

And t you didn't answer my question. Do those passed by have another choice besides damnation?

 

[Renniks]

That's right. All of those people had acted freely according to their will. And they were all part of that which scriptures revealed was predetermined by God's hand and counsel. And So I repeat, so we see, there God's decretive will concerning Jesus Christ and involving the men and their choices, and man's responsibility, two seemingly irreconcilable truths, happening side by side. That's the wisdom of God demonstrated right there with and in Christ.

Ah, the old two wills of God argument! How predictable. Joh Piper fan, perhaps?

God cannot ordain sin and be a Holy God.
Obviously, when you say they acted freely, you mean something other than the normal definition of free. If an all powerful being ordained that I sin, can I choose some other course of action?
God says he doesn't will that any should perish, but you keep confirming that you know otherwise. Very strange.

 

[Renniks]

Renniks,

[I'm condemned because of Adam's sin? No, I'm not.]

Yes you are, in fact every sinner is. We all sinned at one point in time, the fall.
ylt;23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --
[What the original sin did was to cause the human race to fall into the practice of sin.]

We all sinned and died in Adam...we also commit our own sins.

rom3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --
If a person gets the facts of the fall wrong, they will never get everything else right.

No we all are condemned for our sin, not for Adams and I already said that Adams fall was the start of everyone sinning. That's not the same as being condemned for someone else's sin.

 

[Tong2020]

If a person gets the facts of the fall wrong, they will never get everything else right.

Perhaps not necessarily everything, but almost everything.

Tong
R0333

 

[kcnalp]

God can save whoever He wants to save. And He does!

2 Thessalonians 2:13 God from the beginning chose you for salvation ...