Look, right here, pay attention. You just claimed right here that God ordained evil, something you just, in the same post no less, said that you did not say. ( Beating my head against the wall)
Saved Or Predestined ???
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I can say what I already just said, that God foresees evil that man will do and uses it for good, but he doesn't ordain evil.
I've read Ezekiel. I read the whole Bible.. you don't need to tell me what I already know. God used Israel in spite of their rebellion to bring salvation to the world, which brings glory to him. We already covered this in Romans. God used Israel, in spite of their disobedience, to evangelize the nations.
If you believe it's about individual salvation there's no way to escape that conclusion... No matter how much you dance around it.
Consider the following scriptures:
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
What is you understanding of "in Adam all die"?
What is you understanding of "in Christ all shall be made alive"?
Consider the following scriptures:
Hebrew 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually. 4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils. 5 And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham; 6 but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better. 8 Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. 9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, 10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.
@Anthony D'Arienzo
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In Adam all die means all men sin and also die physically. In Christ all are made alive means all are given atonement for their sins, convicted of thier sin and offered eternal life. Otherwise, you would have to be a universalist to believe it means all are saved.
Paul said "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?" As I said, only those who believes in the God that Jesus refers to, could only be the one who can call to Him and ask.
I ask, what could you say about all people? Can they all ask the God of Abraham, even them who have not even heard of Him? And if any have asked and sought the God of Abraham, had they all been heard and given of what they asked for, or have they all found what they sought for?
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R0344
Not at all sir. Salvation starts with God not man. As I said, salvation is God's choice, not man's.
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R0345
First thing to ask you, do you believe what the passage says when it said "Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done"? If not, then I think that settles it. If you do, then why are you still making an issue out of it and seem to still not acknowledge the sovereign hand of God and how He makes use of people for His purposes? You see, God can use and have used people to bring about His purposes without tampering with their "free will" and without these people knowing or conscious about it, just like with Pharaoh's case.
You said "You just claimed right here that God ordained evil". What evil? Did I say anything to the effect that God forced them to kill Jesus? No sir. I said in my other post concerning this and I quote "... it was their choice and doing that Jesus was crucified to His death."
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R0346
But what God did there that I said He did is not ordaining evil Renniks.
That God at some time, used a nation and sent them to punish Israel? Do you believe that?
Now, this nation did not consciously serve God. This nation was like a rod in God's hand. And when God finished using this nation as His rod to punish Israel, He punished this nation too for all that they have done. Do you believe that? Well you should because scriptures says so. That speaks well of the sovereignty of God over people which Paul was telling you about and so do I.
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R0347
Why are you limiting God? Does he only care for certain people groups? When we sung "God loves all the children of the world" where we actually lying?
Acts17:27
27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.
Context refers to all nations of the world.
"From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us."
Paul is preaching to non-jewish people here. And he's preaching about the God who calls on all to seek him.
It starts with God in the sense that God came up with the plan of salvation, and convicts us first... but God isn't dragging anyone in by thier hair. We have to choose to respond.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:12
If you've read the whole Bible and so have read Ezekiel, then you do know what God will do to Israel and do for Israel, despite having profaned His name among the nations, and that God will do what He said He will do to Israel, not for Israel's sake, but for His name's sake. It's strange that you say a different reason when scriptures in Ezekiel explicitly tell us the reason.
Anyway, the point in this is to show you how unsearchable are God's judgments and how unfathomable are His ways, and to show you, that Israel's salvation is God's doing and only His doing, and that is, not because of any good that Israel had done. In fact, it was even while they had been, scattered and no longer in their own land, disobedient and been a stiff-necked people and profaned the name of God among the nations.
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R0348
Of course, I believe God determined beforehand that Jesus would die for the sins of the world. It doesn't say he determined that they would do it.
" they carried out what Your hand and will had decided beforehand would happen."
This is in the context of a prayer. They are praising God for thwarting the plans of evil men.
Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord
and against his anointed one.’
So, it's not about God planning anyone's evil actions. It's the opposite. It's God bringing good even from men's evil plans.
It fits perfectly with what I've been saying all along... God foresees men's actions and makes his plans accordingly.
When God drowned all but 8 on Earth did He give them opportunity for salvation? When He burned Sodom alive?
"Making them an example"
2 Peter 2:5-6 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;
"Making them an example"
2 Peter 2:5-6 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;
Why wouldn't I believe that? But if you are taking the calvinist view on Assyria being used by God, that's another thing. They would say God didn't allow the free will actions, (both of Israelites and the Assyrians) but ordained them himself so that they had to happen.
Just another example of God using men's sinful actions to bring it back good in the long run. But how much better it would have been if there was another option, such as if his people had not required punishment.
Which Israel are you talking about here? We are Israel if we are in Christ. Of course God does what he pleases. That's far different than saying God's will is always done on Earth.
Clearly metaphorical and not literal. Next thing you know you will be saying that Jesus had hinges on His side and a doorknob for a belly-button!
Why do you insist and keep bringing that subject up? If you want us to discuss that, just say so. You don't have to make up things like that just so we'll talk about it.
Okay, so what is it that you want us to discuss regarding individual salvation? That it is not taught in scriptures? What?
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R0349
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