Saying you are without sin verses in 1 John
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ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
1. Was this addressed to believers? Absolutely
2. Do believers have the Holy Spirit? Absolutely
3. Do believers also still have "the flesh"? Absolutely
4. Does "the flesh" cause people to sin? Absolutely
5. So does this verse apply to every Christian? Absolutely
6. Do we make God a liar if we deny this truth? Absolutely
This is very basic and very simple. But people try to complicate things.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
What’s dumb is that if you take the sin and still be saved interpretation of 1 John 1:8 (Which it obviously isn’t because God does not condone sin), then you contradict a normal reading on 1 John 2:4. It says the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8). So obviously 1 John 1:8 is referring to the gnostic belief by those who were trying to seduce the brethren (1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:10 says we should not say we have never sinned (in the past tense). We both agree we have sinned in the past so this is a gnostic belief that denies the existence of sin. This lets us know that 1 John 1:8 is speaking about a denial of sin’s existence when they do sin. For example: Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion. So 1 John 1:8 would be a warning to them in denying sin’s existence. OSAS or sin and still be saved Christians (Which is the vast majority of believers) believe that sin exists physically for them but they don’t believe it exists spiritually because Jesus paid for all their future sins. This makes no sense because 1 John 1:9 tells you to confess of your sin to be forgiven of your sin. There is no need to confess of sin to be forgiven of sin if your future sin is forgiven you. That’s why the popular candy coated Christianity interpretation on 1 John 1:8 is a gross distortion of Scripture. They seek to justify sin. But of course they are not going to get away with such a thing come judgment day (Matthew 7:22-23).
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Here is what doesn’t make sense. What if you are wrong in justifying sin according to Scripture? What if the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30 do actually apply to us believers today? Meaning, He said that if we look upon a woman in lust our whole body is in danger of being cast into hell fire. What if Jesus was right when he said that if we don’t forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father? (Matthew 6:15). Why take the chance on being wrong? I tell you why. Sin is pleasurable. You like sin. It’s your true master and not Jesus. That’s what many in the sin and still be saved camp don’t understand. Paul talks about yielding yourself to whatever master you want to serve in Romans 6. Obviously if a person justifies sin, their master is not God, but it is Satan (1 John 3:8). Sorry, I don’t desire to be blunt or mean here, I am actually speaking in love, and truth. It’s just common sense when you read the Bible or know about basic morality. Good guys do good, and bad guys do evil. You know this when you turn on a movie, or watch the news even.
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Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Love not the word, neither the things in the world. If any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in them.
In other words, they are not saved if they watch these kinds of shows that glorifies sin. The Spirit of God will not let them watch these shows because God within them would speak to their heart that such a thing is not right and good. If they are not convicted when they watch these shows, then God is not living in them anymore or He never lived in them. No Christian can justify sin and be saved. Now, they can confess and forsake their sins and be saved. But they cannot continue in sin and be saved. Paul said be not deceived, the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom.
That's the FAKE INTERPRETATION put out by the Hyper Grace crowd. That's called "disinformation".
But even if this verse was not there, what about the other passages of Scripture? For example Galatians 5:16,17: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth [wars] against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Is Paul writing to Christians? Absolutely
Do Christians have the Holy Spirit? Absolutely
Do Christians have "the flesh" according to this passage? Absolutely
Is there constant warfare between "the flesh" and the Spirit? Absolutely
Can "the flesh" win sometimes and cause a Christian to sin? Absolutely
So if we say we have no sin do we deceive ourselves? Absolutely
And at the same time do we make God a liar? Absolutely
As some either deny the truth concerning what Paul wrote, or are afraid to voice an opinion on it. The law given to Moses consisted of what is often termed the legalistic law and the moral law. The legalistic law of mainly rite, ritual and ceremony could be perfectly obeyed. Jesus said the Pharisees cleaned the outside of the cup, they obeyed the legalistic law. They did not obey the moral law. Paul stated:
As to zeal persecuting the church, as for legalistic righteousness, faultless(NIV 1984 edition) In some translations it reads blameless according to the law. However, we know this is in regard to the legalistic law as Paul admitted Saul could not obey the moral law of the ten commandments(romans ch7) He was not blameless concerning that law
So, if there was only legalistic law you could have been righteous by obeying the law, for it could be faultlessly obeyed. And law that can be faultlessly obeyed is not law where the letter kills/condemns. You can’t be condemned by law you perfectly obey. Therefore, when Paul kept insisting believers could have no righteousness of obeying the law, he had to be stating this because of the moral law.
How anyone cannot understand 2Corinthians 3:6-9 refers to the ten commandments is beyond me. They were the only laws engraved in stone, and it was only the moral law that could not perfectly be obeyed. I have read some daft statements on internet debating websites, but to be told it is baloney for Paul to have in mind the moral law when repeatedly stressing you cannot be righteous by obeying the law goes right to the top. The fact people then grab a couple of literal verses and try and overturn what is obviously true simply shows how little understanding they have of the subject. Someone else wanted me to answer their questions but refused to answer the only question I asked them concerning this subject. Then istcenturylady states not all Christians are born again. That’s as bad as the baloney statement.
Its interesting to note, the three people who appear to have been the most critical of others for being honest and admitting to their faults, are the people who either made the silly statements written above, or didn’t have the confidence to answer the simple question asked. But then, in effect telling people: ‘’You need to live as holy a life as I do, you need to be where I am at’’ shows you will understand little of what really matters in the faith with that attitude, though you may well believe you know much
As to zeal persecuting the church, as for legalistic righteousness, faultless(NIV 1984 edition) In some translations it reads blameless according to the law. However, we know this is in regard to the legalistic law as Paul admitted Saul could not obey the moral law of the ten commandments(romans ch7) He was not blameless concerning that law
So, if there was only legalistic law you could have been righteous by obeying the law, for it could be faultlessly obeyed. And law that can be faultlessly obeyed is not law where the letter kills/condemns. You can’t be condemned by law you perfectly obey. Therefore, when Paul kept insisting believers could have no righteousness of obeying the law, he had to be stating this because of the moral law.
How anyone cannot understand 2Corinthians 3:6-9 refers to the ten commandments is beyond me. They were the only laws engraved in stone, and it was only the moral law that could not perfectly be obeyed. I have read some daft statements on internet debating websites, but to be told it is baloney for Paul to have in mind the moral law when repeatedly stressing you cannot be righteous by obeying the law goes right to the top. The fact people then grab a couple of literal verses and try and overturn what is obviously true simply shows how little understanding they have of the subject. Someone else wanted me to answer their questions but refused to answer the only question I asked them concerning this subject. Then istcenturylady states not all Christians are born again. That’s as bad as the baloney statement.
Its interesting to note, the three people who appear to have been the most critical of others for being honest and admitting to their faults, are the people who either made the silly statements written above, or didn’t have the confidence to answer the simple question asked. But then, in effect telling people: ‘’You need to live as holy a life as I do, you need to be where I am at’’ shows you will understand little of what really matters in the faith with that attitude, though you may well believe you know much
You will be surprised how many here on this forum promulgate sinless perfectionism, the genuine Christians, I believe, do not live in a state of habitual sinning as do unbelievers, but do commit acts of daily sinning, missing the mark.
Here I am in agreement with Robert.
J.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Sorry for butting in...
Martin Luther is famous for the Latin phrase simul justus et peccator, which means “simultaneously just (or righteous) and sinner.” In this phrase, he was communicating the theological understanding that the Christian is both justified/righteous and at the same time a sinner.
By faith, Christians are justified before God as their sins are pardoned and the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them. Yet, in the ongoing pilgrim life of the Christian, there is still a struggle with sin that is discouraging and that, sadly, may lead to devastating consequences. So, how does the Christian, who is justified in Christ, deal with the continuing presence of sin?
Remember Who You Are
First, we must remember who we are as those united to Christ by faith. The Apostle Paul writes in Ephesians 1 that we have been redeemed, adopted, forgiven, and given spiritual blessings, have obtained an inheritance, and more. These are tremendous descriptions of what we have in Christ by the grace of God. Therefore, our relationship to sin has been utterly changed, and how we respond to sin comes from our understanding of who we are in Christ. We must constantly remind ourselves of who we are in Christ and what Christ has done for us.
The Means of Grace
Let me offer a few practical ways to do this. Make sure that you are a part of a church with a minister who preaches the gospel every week. The gospel reminds us of who we are in Christ and what Christ has done for us.
The Armor of God
Of course, even with our understanding of who we are in Christ, we still face regular temptations. Each Christian’s temptations are not the same, but we all struggle with sin as we seek to pursue the holiness that God desires.
The Apostle Paul again calls us to stand firm by putting on the “whole armor of God” (Eph. 6:10–20). We need the belt of truth, the breastplate of righteousness, the shield of faith, the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit.
The battle imagery is absolutely appropriate. We must do battle with things that would cause us to fall away from God. This is a constant fight that will not end until we reach heaven. Thankfully, the Holy Spirit is at work in us and will help us in our struggle until that day when we will be glorified and our struggle with sin ultimately will end.
Even Paul did not obtain absolute perfection.
Interesting topic, many various, different answers
J.
Thank you for the post. Good point, Paul said he was not perfect. As an aside, it's strange, but many who lay great stress on holy living to a very high degree, consider Paul was speaking of his christian life in rom 7:14-24.
@savedbygrace1, many who lay great stress on holy living, for without holiness no one shall see God, do not live a holy life period.
As for Paul we need to read Rom 6,7 and 8...
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
J.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Why? You obey the lusts of the flesh everyday?
“Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.” (John 8:34)
“Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.” (Romans 6:12)
Obey the scriptures!
Are you a sin perfectionist?
Because many do not read the King James Bible frequently enough! They are corrupted with men’s doctrines using corrupted Bible versions!
“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:15-17)
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Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
No sir, I think their selection is complete, and only those who fall away get replaced, it would be extremely unlikely that I would be chosen. Of course, all things are possible with God.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
I like to be very honest Chris, so I openly admit I am a sinner. In fact, there is no possible way I can keep from it, I have actually tried for a while, but gave up. Like I pointed out the world is designed to make us sin. One thing we do have control over however is serious sin, Jehovah makes the way out for us every time. I have at no time been faced with committing a serious sin, that I have not seen an alternate path to take. If we commit a serious sin, we have chosen to do so.
The truth is that if any, and like I said some have told me they do not sin, claim to not sin, that is a sin in itself, as they are most definitely lying. I would be interested in actually meeting someone who never sins, just to see how long they could go before they sinned. Heck, most people don't even know what sin is.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Born again Christians sin just like the rest of us, and we all are redeemed the very same way as them, through the flesh and blood sacrifice of Jesus. Christians sin often, but are forgiven, so in God's eyes they have no sin Be.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
I often hear those who see themselves as "holier than thou" cite Hebrews 12:14 and imply this means that if we are not "holy enough" (in of ourselves, like them) "in addition" to have placed our faith in Christ for salvation, then we won't be saved. The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
Those who are sanctified have been set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 1:2 - To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus..
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