Saying you are without sin verses in 1 John

[Johann]

I’ve not been following this thread until the last few minutes.

Could you define specificly what you mean when you say “sanctification”? In your own words please.

Don't know to whom the question was directed but there are five views on sanctification and as you start from the beginning of this thread you will notice many here have reach sinless perfection, godhood, not capable of committing sin in word, thought and deed.
A brief version.
J.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

I say this to move you to shame (pros entropēn humin legō).

Well you really showed me…

So You think you know the Greek enough to change what other translators have translated.

Ok.

“And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.” (1 Corinthians 8:2)

 

[1stCenturyLady]

This is a wonderful post, one of the best I have read in a long time. If I recall, you are going into teaching and/or ministry. Is that correct? Regardless, you are clearly blessed.

JB, I want to thank you for this encouragement. You really blessed me. My heart is still singing!

 

[Episkopos]

I’ve not been following this thread until the last few minutes.

Could you define specificly what you mean when you say “sanctification”? In your own words please.

Sanctification means holiness....as pure as God is pure. Since very few will ever enter into the kingdom walk in holiness men have invented a doctrine that states that after a LONG time (actually never) people can grow more holy.

There is a fundamental mix up between holiness or PURITY...and the full stature of Christ MATURITY.

The foolishness is in thinking that one can become mature while still enslaved to sin. Maybe become a mature sinner?

No one becomes mature in Christ without walking in His resurrection life for long enough to develop the mind of Christ.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No...the parable is indeed about salvation, about repenting of sins only to return to them as a dog to his vomit, giving Satan all the more reign.

I was talking about your words "swept clean." As I recall, that wasn't in Peter's writings, but one of the gospels wasn't it?

Matthew 12:
43 “Now when the unclean spirit comes out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came’; and when it comes, it finds it unoccupied, swept, and put in order. 45 Then it goes and brings along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they come in and live there; and the last condition of that person becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation.”

 

[Johann]

Well you really showed me…

So You think you know the Greek enough to change what other translators have translated.

Ok.

“And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.” (1 Corinthians 8:2)

Quoting scriptures here and there...


Puffeth up (phusioi). From phusioō (present indicative active). See note on 1Co_4:6. Pride may be the result, not edification (oikodomei) which comes from love. Note article (hē) with both gnōsis and agapē, making the contrast sharper. See note on 1Th_5:11 for the verb oikodomeō, to build up.

Love is the solution, not knowledge, in all social problems.
That he knoweth anything (egnōkenai ti). Perfect active infinitive in indirect discourse after dokei (condition of first class with ei). So “has acquired knowledge” (cf. 1Co_3:18), has gone to the bottom of the subject.

He knoweth not yet (oupō egnō). Second aorist active indicative, timeless aorist, summary (punctiliar) statement of his ignorance.

As he ought to know (kathōs dei gnōnai). Second aorist active infinitive, ingressive aorist (come to know). Newton’s remark that he was only gathering pebbles on the shore of the ocean of truth is pertinent. The really learned man knows his ignorance of what lies beyond. Shallow knowledge is like the depth of the mud hole, not of the crystal spring.
Robertson

Or, to put it another, yet same dereck...
That he knoweth anything (ἐγνωκέναι τι)
Or, literally, has come to know. See on Joh_2:24; see on Joh_3:10; see on Joh_17:3. Showing in what sense knowledge was used in the previous clause: fancied knowledge; knowledge of divine things without love.

I don't boast in my knowledge for I have none, but what I do know, I share.
Such a pity you will not even look up resources that can help you understand scripture with the help of the Holy Spirit.
No need to reply.
J.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No...the parable is indeed about salvation, about repenting of sins only to return to them as a dog to his vomit, giving Satan all the more reign.

I agree that Peter was talking about salvation, but not as an end result. That person was as "saved" as you are right now, but got entangled in sin again. We are warned against throwing away their salvation, because they will be thrown away themselves.

John 15:6
If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[marks]

I didn’t say that.

I acknowledged your point.

Sorry! I think I misunderstood you.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

. We are warned against throwing away their salvation, because they will be thrown away themselves.

You are teaching self saving Legalism again.

"here is what i must not do, if i want to keep myself saved".
See that?
That's not faith in Christ, that faith in Self.

Listen,
Salvation is Christ on the Cross... not you trying not to lose it.

See, when you dont understand that Salvation is not of you, then you think you can control it.
You CANT.

Salvation is of Christ. Proof you have what HE has finished on the Cross, is that you are born again.
You can't stop being born again, just like you can't keep staying saved by anything you do or dont do.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Sanctification means holiness....as pure as God is pure. Since very few will ever enter into the kingdom walk in holiness men have invented a doctrine that states that after a LONG time (actually never) people can grow more holy.

There is a fundamental mix up between holiness or PURITY...and the full stature of Christ MATURITY.

The foolishness is in thinking that one can become mature while still enslaved to sin. Maybe become a mature sinner?

No one becomes mature in Christ without walking in His resurrection life for long enough to develop the mind of Christ.

That helps but I do have some more questions. I realize that these many of these points have been touched on, but I want to make sure I got each person’s position straight:
-Do you view sanctification happening instantly or over time?
-Do all believers eventually become sanctified ?
- You talked about the difference between being pure and mature. Running with an example: what if a believer told a lie? How does that fit into your explanation if holy vs mature?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Don't know to whom the question was directed but there are five views on sanctification and as you start from the beginning of this thread you will notice many here have reach sinless perfection, godhood, not capable of committing sin in word, thought and deed.
A brief version.
J.

There are so many different ways people define this term, that why I asked @Episkopos thiers! Same with any other person I chat with about this subject:)

 

[Behold]

-Do you view sanctification happening instantly or over time?

A born again person has already become "The righteousness of GOD, in Christ".
The born again exist, spiritually, "IN Christ"......so, that is their righteousness.
They are exactly as righteous as God, and have been joined to God's Spirit.

Their "body" is "dead because of Sin" but their Spirit is Life, is made alive because of Christ".

Then, you begin your discipleship. And that is a process of learning how to "work out your salvation".
That does not mean you are trying to not lose it. It means you learning how to exist, in this world, by Faith, because the born again have become a "new Creation" "in Christ"., = SPIRITUALLY.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You are teaching self saving Legalism again.

"here is what i must not do, if i want to keep myself saved".
See that?
That's not faith in Christ, that faith in Self.

Listen,
Salvation is Christ on the Cross... not you trying not to lose it.

See, when you dont understand that Salvation is not of you, then you think you can control it.
You CANT.

Salvation is of Christ. Proof you have what HE has finished on the Cross, is that you are born again.
You can't stop being born again, just like you can't keep staying saved by anything you do or dont do.

Behold, it can't be self, when it was God who gave me a new heart and a new spirit. They are in His control, not my old flesh. Sure we keep ourselves, but that is in obedience to my Master and written. 1 John 5:18. My new self-will wants to obey, because I dwell on God all day which turns into even in my dreams.

Ez. 36:26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Why do you fight God given actual holiness? Not fake holiness while you keep sinning?

 

[Episkopos]

That helps but I do have some more questions. I realize that these many of these points have been touched on, but I want to make sure I got each person’s position straight:
-Do you view sanctification happening instantly or over time?

First there is no sanctification away from the presence and power of God by grace. Over time most believers cool off...lose their first love, become complacent, grow slack, take things for granted. No one that ever lived can attest to growing more holy given time. Ask any believer over 80. Holiness comes from being in a holy place. That place for us is Christ. :)

-Do all believers eventually become sanctified ?

Most believers will never be holy. Nor will they experience holiness. Most believers remain sinners their entire lives. Jesus said that few will enter into the kingdom through the doorway of Christ and few will walk that narrow path.

- You talked about the difference between being pure and mature. Running with an example: what if a believer told a lie? How does that fit into your explanation if holy vs mature?

Jesus said...My sheep HEAR (listen to and obey) My voice. When you hear the truth you can adjust your walk to follow that leading...even if it means doing a 180.

Hearing is the first step into PURITY. Jesus said...My words have made you clean...(John 15:3) They were made pure because they received and believed His words. The holiness of Jesus covered them at that point. They were not holy in themselves...but they came under the Lord's covering...just as we must if we are to be instantly sanctified. Jesus did NOT say...My words have made you a little bit pure. And John did not say...He is faithful and just to cleanse us from SOME unrighteousness. :)

 

[Jane_Doe22]

First there is no sanctification away from the presence and power of God by grace. Over time most believers cool off...lose their first love, become complacent, grow slack, take things for granted. No one that ever lived can attest to growing more holy given time. Ask any believer over 80. Holiness comes from being in a holy place. That place for us is Christ. :)


Most believers will never be holy. Nor will they experience holiness. Most believers remain sinners their entire lives.


Jesus said...My sheep HEAR (listen) My voice. When you hear the truth you can adjust your walk to follow that leading...even if it means doing a 180.

Hearing is the first step into PURITY. Jesus said...My words have made you clean...(John 15:3) They were made pure because they received and believed His words. The holiness of Jesus covered them at that point. They were not holy in themselves...but they came under the Lord's covering...just as we must if we are to be instantly sanctified. Jesus did NOT say...My words have made you a little bit pure. And John did not say...He is faithful and just to cleanse us from SOME unrighteousness. :)

This doesn’t really answer my questions, but got to the ballpark enough for me to understand your position roughly. Thank you for the explanation.

 

[Johann]

There are so many different ways people define this term, that why I asked @Episkopos thiers! Same with any other person I chat with about this subject:)

Be prepared for a rough ride on this topic Jane.
J.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

966

Such a pity you will not even look up resources that can help you understand scripture

The multitude of “resources” at our hand these days is the very reason Christianity is in such divided disarray.

If everyone just stuck to their Bibles and came to an agreement that what the translation says is final there would more unity. But everyone is a Greek and Hebrew scholar nowadays and presumes to know better than what an entire professional translation committee came up with already. Everyone with his own translation. It’s like a young man taking a finely designed automobile and then sticking “custom” items to it that only looks good to him. While everyone else sees a monstrosity.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Be prepared for a rough ride on this topic Jane.
J.

I’m a very seasoned veteran of religious discussions :). I don’t require a person to agree with me to take the time to understand their position, including the good and the many positions out there that are just junk. I still want to understand and love my neighbor.

 

[Johann]

966


The multitude of “resources” at our hand these days is the very reason Christianity is in such divided disarray.

If everyone just stuck to their Bibles and came to an agreement that what the translation says is final there would more unity. But everyone is a Greek and Hebrew scholar nowadays and presumes to know better than what an entire professional translation committee came up with already. Everyone with his own translation. It’s like a young man taking a finely designed automobile and then sticking “custom” items to it that only looks good to him. While everyone else sees a monstrosity.

Talking about monstrosity, in the KJV it says Jesus went to Hell, your exegesis?
J.

 

[Behold]

Behold, it can't be self, when it was God who gave me a new heart and a new spirit.

When you teach, as you DO, and have done today, and many times on this forum, that you can lose your salvation, then you just taught that you keep it., or not.
So, that is YOURSELF, in charged of going to heaven, or not.
That is =NO FAITH IN CHRIST to get you to heaven. That is SELF SAVING, = here is what I DO, so that I dont lose my Salvation.
That is not Faith in Christ, that is faith in self.

Here is your reality check.
If you do not believe that Christ keeps you saved, then you have no faith in Christ at all., and are pretending you do.
So, the second that you no longer believe that Christ keeps you saved,.. your faith has become in SELF, = Here is how i keep myself saved".

Here is the Heresy... "yes, Christ keeps me saved, if i do this, (works) and dont do that =(self saving).
Ahd that is what you just taught again, in the post i responded to...
Believe it, and know that you'll do it again, until you have faith in Christ to keep you saved.
If that happens you wont be here trying to ruin a Real Christians Faith, with your LEGALISM.