Does regeneration come before faith? | GotQuestions.org
Please read right through and not like the others who don't.
J.
Saying you are without sin verses in 1 John
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Please read right through and not like the others who don't.
J.
No man can come to Jesus unless drawn by the Father.
You are Armenian in your viewpoint.
I hearken to scriptures and not philosophizing in a multitude of meaningless words.
J.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
And you know that how ?
If I say I agree that John 3:16 means Jesus loved every single person who ever lived ( the whole world ) and you believe its only the elect/chosen ones then who should we believe ? Gods word in John 3:16 or your view ?
The above is just an example/ illustration to make a point.
hope this helps !!!
Taken
Well-Known Member
I’m going to have to overrule your limited choices.
Fancy words, other men...not my interest.
I lean on the Lord God Almighty.
I would say, the man acts first, with repentance for not having Believed.
Followed by the mans Heartful Confession of what He Believes.
And the Lord God Almighty’s instant Responsive Works, called QUICK, called HEALING.
Thanks for your effort, but it’s somewhere between comedy and unbelievable to read the debates on this forum, let alone to being introduced to debates outside of this forum.
The question still remains, however, must God regenerate people, i.e., save them, before they can believe?
The key point is that God must do a miraculous work in people’s lives before they are able to believe in Christ unto salvation. As a result, all the glory belongs to God (Romans 11:36). On this, Calvinists and Arminians agree, even if they don’t think they do.
[/QUOTE]
Jer 1:
[5a] Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;
My perspective;
All body’s are what God forms.
God knows all what will be, before it is.
All souls belong to God.
All formed naturally born body’s are given a soul, with Gods breath life.
What a thing shall choose, not choose, wavers IMO is known to God, before it is known to the uncreated and unmade thing...(in this scenario, an earthly man.)
Calling a wavering man? Likely
Drawing a man who will choose to believe? Likely
Not calling, Not drawing a man who will reject Him? Likely
Many are called few are Chosen.
Who exactly is God Choosing? Those He knows WILL Choose Him?
It’s a mysterious thing, to KNOW what a man WILL choose before it exists. (But then parallel that with Pregnancy’s, the chosen, the rejected, before it is born.)
It is not so mysterious, to choose that which chooses you. Prepare a place. (Again parallel to a Pregnancy. The Wanted Child.)
It is not so mysterious, for a Pregnant woman to birth the child...
Then waver, keep it, give it away.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Don’t believe regeneration comes before faith.
I believe the INTENT of the all Knowing God To Regenerate comes before the man exists.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
It does not come before calvinists have reversed the biblical order.
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Notice what comes first
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.
hope this helps !!!
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Uh, no. It is my own writing. It is an understanding given to me on His Word from the LORD, and it is based on looking at the context (like 1 John 1:8 - which many in the sin and still be saved camp distort to their own destruction).
You said:
And your wrong thinking expressed here is exactly what 1 John 1:8 is warning you against. It is warning you that you cannot think you can sin and still be saved (or that you don’t have to worry about sin anymore because Jesus paid it all). You believe Jesus paid for all your future sin and so when you sin physically, you believe your sin does not exist on a spiritual level. This is exactly the kind of false belief that 1 John 1:8 is warning you against.
1 John 1:8 basically means: If we say we have no sin if we do sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:8 does not mean you must admit you are sinning 24/7. That kind of interpretation does not even fit the context.
1 John 1:9 is giving you the proper spiritual medical prescription on how to deal with sin (Instead of saying you have no sin when you do sin - 1 John 1:8). For 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. You just believe you are automatically forgiven when you sin, and yet 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. For why do you think King David confessed of his sins to GOD when he committed adultery and murder? Anyways, I doubt you will see the Bible in the correct way on this topic because sin is enticing and it corrupts the thoughts and minds of men so as to justify it.
I mean stop and and just read very slowly Matthew 7:22-23. The believers who did wonderful works in Christ’s name were told by our Lord to depart from Him NOT because they did wonderful works but because they worked iniquity (sin), too. You can do all the good works in the world, but if you also justify sin and evil, Jesus will tell you to depart from Him because you are also working iniquity (sin). Proof? Jesus says in Matthew 7:26-27 that everyone who does not DO what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.
The idea is here is that the person will not be saved if they do not do what Jesus says.
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I am no Calvinist but this is how I believe.
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Now, debunk RC.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
John 6:44-45 is not a truth that deals with an unbeliever becoming a believer (like Calvinists claim it means). John 6:44-45 is talking about those who already walk with GOD because they heard and learned of the Father (Read verse 45). Yes, they need GOD to be guided, drawn to Jesus, but that is a part of having a natural relationship with GOD. This does not prove they had no free will in the matter. The fact that we have to endure to the end and fight the good fight of faith proves that we have free will. The fact that believers and even great men of GOD can sin proves we have a will that can act contrary to GOD's will. GOD does not force man to be a certain way or enable them to be changed whereby they cannot refuse something. GOD is not into the forcing or bullying business; And that is exactly what you are proposing if you believe GOD does something that goes beyond man's free will in regards to choosing GOD in some way.
2 Thessalonians 2:10 refutes Calvinism.
2 Thessalonians 2:10
“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”
Why are those who perish perishing? Because they received not the love of the truth. It’s not because God did not elect them.
Also it says that those who perish MIGHT be saved. So there is a possibility of them being saved. There is no MIGHT in Calvinism.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
What is the condition of having the seal of God?
Scripture says, God the Father has set his seal upon those who labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.
"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." (John 6:27).
The Holy Spirit is given to those who obey Him (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).
In fact, what is a guarantee?
Guarantee receipts normally have conditions which you can normally read in the ”fine print”. If you get a guarantee receipt for a certain product and you would like to make a claim, the store might request that you bring both the product and the receipt with you before they are willing to look at your claim. They might also request that you do this within a certain time frame and that you state what’s wrong with the product. Another example could be if someone buys you a bus ticket which guarantees you to get to a certain city PROVIDED that 1) you don’t throw away your ticket, 2) that you embark the right bus on the right time, and 3) that you STAY ON the bus until it arrives at the city. The BUS will arrive at the city as promised, but the question is if YOU will choose to be among the bus passengers.
1 Samuel 16:14
“But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.”
Psalms 51:11
“Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me”
Again, circumcision was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.
Romans 4:11
“And he received the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also.”
This seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.
Romans 2:25-27
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law: but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
As you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant but if we abandon the faith, and/or live in disobedience then the Spirit of God no longer remains in us and we are no longer sealed. Circumcised (sealed) jews were broken off through unbelief.
Acts 5:32
“And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.”
John 14:15-16
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever
Romans 8:9-10
9 “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And IF Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.”
God speaks of the Israelites who ”grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.
Isaiah 63:10
“But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.” —
Isaiah 63:14
“As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.”
In the NT the ”rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus (Read Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 10).
Source:
Sealed UNTO the day of redemption, but a seal can be broken Eph. 4:30
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Involving the topic of regeneration proceeding faith: They really don’t pick a side on this issue or topic.
Anyways, Gotquestions is a Calvinist website.
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Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
I am glad you are still against Calvinism.
But please stop posting Calvinist videos and or posting from their websites (if you are not a Calvinist).
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A baby Christian will do an act of lack of self-control and our conscience doesn't hurt. But the same thing 10 years later cannot be done because our conscience is now aware through growth of the fruit of the Spirit and the warning prevents us.
Looking back at my life as a baby Christian, I remember sinning with no guilt but God was still speaking to me regularly as if I was still sinless. How could that be? I only thought about this recently, and wondered how I could sin with no checking of my conscience, and still feel no separation from God. None of the multitude of gifts He gave me stopped working. (He's given me all but two. But they are for separate offices, and are no use to me for the office of teaching.) When I asked Him about our lack of separation, He said "because it was unintentional." Now I understood perfectly. That new revelation to me was scriptural. "New revelation" is the Author's interpretation, and undoes false teaching and the doctrines of demons. It has nothing to do with foretelling, but is actually forth-telling. However, today prophets can also receive personal foretelling as Agabus did to Paul, but not new scripture for the profit of all like John did with the Book of Revelation.
The first time around when our heart does not condemn us, God wipes it clean as "unintentional" *with one condition. That is how God still sees babies as sinless. But 10 years later when it would be in full knowledge, God would hold us accountable if we kept disobeying our conscience when He's given us His Spirit to empower us to resist the devil, and eventually hearts could become seared as we quench the Spirit. This is why 1 John 5:18 tells us that those more mature keep themselves and do not willfully sin, and the devil cannot touch us. And the same text means that a baby Christian will live up to the knowledge they have; that living up to is keeping themselves and we can remain in a sinless state. Those unintentional sins we commit are trespasses, as per Leviticus 5:15, and *Matthew 6:14-15 tells us that as long as we forgive those brethren who trespass against us, our trespasses are then cleansed. The power of Jesus has made our New Covenant through the Spirit just about fool-proof. It is so easy to be saved in Jesus, there is no excuse for false teachers to claim we will always sin. Besides walking in the Spirit, all we actually need to do is always forgive. That is brotherly kindness, and is a fruit that needs to mature to become perfect and holy as our Lord Jesus commanded.
Another thing I learned this year as I prayed on the way home from church was about our conscience. It is our heart where God promised to write all His laws. But are all His laws written there and known day one when we are first born again, as I had first thought? God clarified that our heart/soul is born again of the Spirit, but on day one only the seeds of the fruit of the Spirit are planted, and still have to grow to maturity. Immature fruit causes those sins, but God prunes those branches to mature them and to produce bigger, healthier fruit, as long as we stay in the vine and abide in Jesus, there is no sin in Him. 1 John 3:6. And as for baby Christians who are children of God and abide in Jesus continually sins, but are pruned by the Master Gardener.
Our spirit is also born again and full of righteousness. We cannot rebel against God. Now I realize my sin when a baby Christian was an immature fruit of the Spirit. But it was not in rebellion against God. In other words, it was not a sin of lawlessness which were already crucified from day one.
What this does not mean is that a born again Christian, even a baby one, has two natures. That is a false doctrine of demons taught by the most popular of teachers, some with popular books for itching ears, and even on the radio and youtube and other areas of the internet. Just ask yourself if you are one of their disciples, does their messages justify your known sinful ways, or cause you to become actually holy, and not because of the doctrine that the blood of Jesus covers up your sin. They also are against sinless perfection, even though we are sinless from day one due to intention, and are on the path to perfection in this life, not after we die. Wow, Satan wants all Christians to wait until after they die, because he cares not that you believe in Jesus (even he knows that much), just as long as you don't abide in Him, and He in you so you won't keep willfully sinning. That is the biggest clue of their forked tongues of a serpent.
Once you have the Spirit of Christ indwelling you to live up to the knowledge you have, you are NOT IN THE FLESH, Romans 8:9, but in the New Covenant. Our intention is to always follow Jesus. Unfortunately, there are some Sunday Christians that go to church out of habit, cultivating friendships. The Spirit is still on the outside drawing them to Jesus, but until we actually repent and want to turn away from sin, Jesus can’t help us yet by dwelling inside killing the old man by crucifying it to His cross, and cleansing our sin nature completely by taking away our sin. They are not saved, but Jesus will say to them, I never knew you. Matthew 7:21-23.
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
Was/is there a particular verse in Matthew 24 that causes you to see things differently?
ScottA
Well-Known Member
I mostly do quote the scriptures...only sometimes with quotation marks, however. What do you mean by "tendency to divorce?"
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