Scripture, God's Greatest Gift to Mankind
- Thread starter Anthony D'Arienzo
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Anthony, you're doing all of those thing I listed against earlier.
Remember: God >> scripture. God reveals and teaches Truth (including through scripture). Scripture does not save, Christ does. We don't worship the scripture, we worship God. He and His Spirit teach & testify of Truth. Don't forget He comes first.
God is not defined by our understanding of Him. 6 (or 527) different people will each have limited & flawed understanding of the ONE God. And that's 527 people whom need to ever continue to be sanctified & learn & walk with Him.
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John Caldwell
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His argument is flawed anyway. He cannot answer "what scripture" (how he believes the Bible instead of another scripture) without acknowledging God giving of Himself (working in us).
I think most here realize the error of the OP. But when we first believed we probably struggled through some error as well. Study is no substitute for spiritual maturity. They are both important. We study, but we also need time walking with God.
As I was reminded, sometimes the only thing we can do is point people to the truth. God can cause growth. We cannot.
But I have. Here, I'll do it again point blank for you:
Testimony received from God the Spirit.
Comes from God. Starts by a person receiving testimony from God and having faith in Him.
<skipping the rhetorical questions>
I see it very regularly.
God.
From God Himself.
Anthony, everything comes from God. God can (and frequently) uses scripture as a window to show His Truths. But the light comes from God, not the window. Without God & His witness, scripture doesn't do jack.
Only one Alighty God.
The verses you quoted don't relate to a person's academic understanding of God, but rather where their heart is. If a person's heart is set on riches, their academic understanding of God doesn't matter. If their heart is on God, then academic understanding can (and should) grow as their walk with Him deepens.
FHII
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I really think the OP was just showing appreciation for the scripture. And, like what always happens here, it's evolved into an debate.
First thing I am going to say (without apology) is that I do believe the Bible is the Word of God. If you do not believe that, no hard feelings, but I disagree. And as such, nothing I say hereafter is relevant as far as you are concerned.
Second... What is more important, Jesus or his words and actions (as they are recorded in the Bible)? I don't separate them. We were saved by his blood and death according to the Bible, but also by his life. Not just his death, but also by his life! (Romans 5:9-10). That is, the things he said and did.
One of the things he did was chose 12 men to preach and make disciples of all nation's, and he gave them full authority in his name. They did so, and one way was by written word. So, if you are pointing to Jesus as the greatest gift (which is rightly done) you must also look at what he said as an extension of him.
Thus, I see no reason to separate God and Scripture. It would be like a wife honoring her husband but not listening to him.
First thing I am going to say (without apology) is that I do believe the Bible is the Word of God. If you do not believe that, no hard feelings, but I disagree. And as such, nothing I say hereafter is relevant as far as you are concerned.
Second... What is more important, Jesus or his words and actions (as they are recorded in the Bible)? I don't separate them. We were saved by his blood and death according to the Bible, but also by his life. Not just his death, but also by his life! (Romans 5:9-10). That is, the things he said and did.
One of the things he did was chose 12 men to preach and make disciples of all nation's, and he gave them full authority in his name. They did so, and one way was by written word. So, if you are pointing to Jesus as the greatest gift (which is rightly done) you must also look at what he said as an extension of him.
Thus, I see no reason to separate God and Scripture. It would be like a wife honoring her husband but not listening to him.
There's a lot more going on with the OP than just expressing his appreciation of scripture.
Stating the obvious: scripture is extremely important.
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
I do not believe the OP was just showing an appreciation for Scripture. We all appreciate Scripture. This is God's own words, God "breathed". Scripture is God's revelation of Himself to man. The greater revelation us Christ.
The reason I say this is the OP was first posted in another board where it (the OP) argued directly that Scripture rather than Christ us the greatest gift to humanity.
I agree with you that Scripture is one of the greatest gifts given mankind. But Scripture is not God. Scripture is God's revelation. The revelation can never be greater than what is revealed.
Do you believe Scripture greater than God giving of Himself or even the gift of salvation?
FHII
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Jane_Doe22,
[But I have. Here, I'll do it again point blank for you:]
Testimony received from God the Spirit.
Comes from God. Starts by a person receiving testimony from God and having faith in Him.]
What do you mean?
A person is walking down the street and they "receive testimony from God the Spirit"?
<skipping the rhetorical questions>
You are skipping the questions that will show the truth being discussed
[Anthony, everything comes from God. God can (and frequently) uses scripture as a window to show His Truths. But the light comes from God, not the window. Without God & His witness, scripture doesn't do jack].
Who is God's witness?
[Only one Alighty God.]
Yet you mention 6 different groups who have different God's.
[But I have. Here, I'll do it again point blank for you:]
Testimony received from God the Spirit.
Comes from God. Starts by a person receiving testimony from God and having faith in Him.]
What do you mean?
A person is walking down the street and they "receive testimony from God the Spirit"?
<skipping the rhetorical questions>
You are skipping the questions that will show the truth being discussed
[Anthony, everything comes from God. God can (and frequently) uses scripture as a window to show His Truths. But the light comes from God, not the window. Without God & His witness, scripture doesn't do jack].
Who is God's witness?
[Only one Alighty God.]
Yet you mention 6 different groups who have different God's.
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
The revelation (the disclosure) can never be greater than what is revealed (the thing disclosed).
Scripture reveals His to man but Scripture is not greater than God.
Consider - Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. John 13:16
Scripture is given by God. But just like a messenger, Scripture is not greater than God.
The OP offers only two options - either deny God's greatness or deny God gave His Son.
I think you are missing the point of the OP because it is not something we would expect a Christian would typically say or believe.
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
And often different scriptures.
How did you come to choose the Bible? Was it your own superior intelligence (superior to those who chose other scriptures) or was it God?
Anthony, do you not know God?
Has He not touched your heart & soul?
Don't worship the window (scripture) but instead worship the light.
There's only one almighty God.
If 352 people have different flaws in their understanding of God, that doesn't change Him the slightest. It's just 352 people whom have more to learn on their walk with Him.
FHII
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I am not on that other board. I am going by what is in this thread. So, if there is a back story... Ok. I am just responding to what I read.
Again, I don't separate the two. The scripture tells us what God said and did. How is it possible to separate God from his actions and what he told us? How would we even know he exists if he doesn't say or do anything? The Scripture tells us what he said and did.
I'm 50 years old. In middle school and high school I used to get handwritten notes from my girlfriend. Did I cherish those pieces of notebook paper? Sure! But was i more touched and excited by what was said in them? Absolutely! When my sweetheart said she was going to smother me with kisses and such, I loved reading it, but I was more interested in the prophecy being fulfilled!
Yea, high school love! I know... But I hope you get my point. The little notebook paper went into my secret drawer to be saved and read about 20 times over. But yes, it was all about what my girlfriend felt. I took it that she meant what she said. So her words were more than just pink ink and lined notebook paper.
Friggin kids today missed out on that...
FHII,
[I really think the OP was just showing appreciation for the scripture.]
Correct! Without scripture giving us a true and accurate knowledge of the True and Living God, we are no different than the heathen who create dead Idols as in Psalm 115;
115 Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.
2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?
3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.
Those who make dead idols, are spiritually dead themselves vs8
[And, like what always happens here, it's evolved into an debate.]
Anytime truth is discussed some resist at all costs
[First thing I am going to say (without apology) is that I do believe the Bible is the Word of God. If you do not believe that, no hard feelings, but I disagree. And as such, nothing I say hereafter is relevant as far as you are concerned.]
Yes, you sense the need to establish that scripture is what is authoritative
Second... What is more important, Jesus or his words and actions (as they are recorded in the Bible)? I don't separate them.
Exactly, without the scripture, we do not know Jesus. Very few people met or spoke to Jesus on earth.
God had His word be inscripturated so we can know the biblical Jesus
[We were saved by his blood and death according to the Bible, but also by his life. Not just his death, but also by his life! (Romans 5:9-10). That is, the things he said and did.
One of the things he did was chose 12 men to preach and make disciples of all nation's, and he gave them full authority in his name. They did so, and one way was by written word. So, if you are pointing to Jesus as the greatest gift (which is rightly done) you must also look at what he said as an extension of him.
Thus, I see no reason to separate God and Scripture. It would be like a wife honoring her husband but not listening to him.]
Good comments, well thought out
[I really think the OP was just showing appreciation for the scripture.]
Correct! Without scripture giving us a true and accurate knowledge of the True and Living God, we are no different than the heathen who create dead Idols as in Psalm 115;
115 Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.
2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?
3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.
Those who make dead idols, are spiritually dead themselves vs8
[And, like what always happens here, it's evolved into an debate.]
Anytime truth is discussed some resist at all costs
[First thing I am going to say (without apology) is that I do believe the Bible is the Word of God. If you do not believe that, no hard feelings, but I disagree. And as such, nothing I say hereafter is relevant as far as you are concerned.]
Yes, you sense the need to establish that scripture is what is authoritative
Second... What is more important, Jesus or his words and actions (as they are recorded in the Bible)? I don't separate them.
Exactly, without the scripture, we do not know Jesus. Very few people met or spoke to Jesus on earth.
God had His word be inscripturated so we can know the biblical Jesus
[We were saved by his blood and death according to the Bible, but also by his life. Not just his death, but also by his life! (Romans 5:9-10). That is, the things he said and did.
One of the things he did was chose 12 men to preach and make disciples of all nation's, and he gave them full authority in his name. They did so, and one way was by written word. So, if you are pointing to Jesus as the greatest gift (which is rightly done) you must also look at what he said as an extension of him.
Thus, I see no reason to separate God and Scripture. It would be like a wife honoring her husband but not listening to him.]
Good comments, well thought out
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FHII
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Naw... It still doesn't make sense. A revelation is something that is revealed.
Huh?
I don't think you see my point. Scripture tells us what God said and did. It is not reasonable to separate God from the accounts of what he said and did. I recently read a biography on Thomas Jefferson. It's like saying Thomas Jefferson is greater than the things he said and did.
"Jane_Doe22,
[There's only one almighty God.
If 352 people have different flaws in their understanding of God, that doesn't change Him the slightest. It's just 352 people whom have more to learn on their walk with Him.]
This is exactly why the scriptures are given,A JW, for example, does not have a "walk with Him", they have another, jesus, another gospel.
You did not answers the questions because apart from scripture you cannot answer.,
[There's only one almighty God.
If 352 people have different flaws in their understanding of God, that doesn't change Him the slightest. It's just 352 people whom have more to learn on their walk with Him.]
This is exactly why the scriptures are given,A JW, for example, does not have a "walk with Him", they have another, jesus, another gospel.
You did not answers the questions because apart from scripture you cannot answer.,
Nonsense.
It's a disciple of Christ whom (in my view) has a very poor understanding of Him. That person's poor understanding doesn't somehow alter Him in anyway.
He's just as much a disciple of Christ as you, I, or anyone else here. Man's traditions of theology (including the ones you hold) aren't what saves anyone.
Note: I'm saying this as a person whom PASSIONATELY disagrees with a lot of JW theology and practice.
Jane_Doe22,
[Nonsense.]
No, thanks to scripture we can understand such vital truths as this, far from nonsense, this can make the difference of someone being saved or not.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
[It's a disciple of Christ whom (in my view) has a very poor understanding of Him. That person's poor understanding doesn't somehow alter Him in anyway.
He's just as much a disciple of Christ as you, I, or anyone else here.]
Not according to scripture...that is how this thread can be helpful
[Nonsense.]
No, thanks to scripture we can understand such vital truths as this, far from nonsense, this can make the difference of someone being saved or not.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
[It's a disciple of Christ whom (in my view) has a very poor understanding of Him. That person's poor understanding doesn't somehow alter Him in anyway.
He's just as much a disciple of Christ as you, I, or anyone else here.]
Not according to scripture...that is how this thread can be helpful
Expect that scripture's meaning defined though your personal lens -- your own mortal traditions of Walter Martin and Calvin and Luther, etc.
You are no more sola scripture than a JW! Everyone comes with that baggage.
Hence my original comment: your thread here is boils down to "scripture is all we need!... well, that + the tradition that defines which books are scripture + the traditions I think correctly interpret scripture + the traditions of how I misconstrue other people's beliefs.".
