SDAs, USA and the End times.

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Josho

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So new thread, this just came to mind, I vaguely remember the SDAs have a view that the USA will play a very significant role in the end time prophecies.

Maybe it's because they are a massive cultural influence at the moment and have been since WWII? Whether it be entertainment or politics or something else and they also are one of the world leaders in military might.

Maybe these aren't the reasons? UK did used to be the leader on the global stage.

Could @Brakelite @BarneyFife or someone else please expand on this?
 
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Brakelite

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Josh, I don't think that at this time you could come up with a better or more relevant question.
Most Christians who take any interest in prophecy are looking to Israel and the middle east for all the signs and fulfilments of prophecy. They think that while the USA may be having an indirect impact on prophecy through its support of Israel, they don't recognise any direct prophetic relevancy or role for the USA in the Bible prophetic scenario for the end times. But you are correct in pointing out that the SDA church has a very different perspective, and is quite unique amongst those who study prophecy for the last days. I can see this thread diverting into all sorts of directions, with every Tom,Dick, and Harry offering their personal or church's view and give the SDA perspective little attention because it grates on many nerves and is too close to home. Yet our eschatological view hasn't changed in 160 years. In the beginning, it was considered extremely unlikely because of the political and religious mood in the 1880s, but today, things have dramatically changed, and the SDA picture as we see it is becoming very quickly the only likely scenario.

So here is a very brief summary of what has been our belief for well over a century. And has not changed.

In the 19th century, Catholics were only admitted into the US on sufferance. The pioneers of the US had no liking for the papacy, having all escaped a tyrannical Europe. They saw the papacy as a dangerous enemy. But they had just written a bill of rights and signed off on religious and political freedom. Therefore everyone was welcome, despite the fears many held, particularly of the Jesuits.
SDA teaching has it that the sea beast of revelation 13 is the papal power. A composite of all the powers that preceded her... Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and pagan Rome. Many attributes and characteristics of those former empires can be seen in the Catholic system. They have been discussed numerous times elsewhere, so no need to elaborate here. That beast was to receive a mortal wound which would be healed. It would also rule for 1260 years, following the day for a year formula established previously in prophecy in Numbers and Ezekiel, and born out in many fulfilments, most notably the messianic prophecy of Daniel 9. The papacy's first tenure at the top began in 538, and concluded in 1798. In 1798 it's power as a civil ruler was broken. Many European nations thought at that time the Catholic church finished. She was temporarily finished as a union of church and state, but she continued in her role as a religious entity.
At this time, in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, the second land beast of revelation 13 began its rise to power. This new kid on the block would rise to such prominence that she would restore the prestige and power of the first beast, but on a global scale, giving the Vatican unprecedented control over the nations and over the world religious framework. All this is taking place right now, through the ecumenical work, particularly of the late pope Francis, and looks to be continued by the new pope Leo. It is no coincidence we believe, that the new pope is American, and is following in the footsteps of former Leo's, and has already spoken strongly in favour of ecumenism. We believe, and not without a great deal of biblical and historical evidence, that that seconds beast is the USA, and will, through forming an image to the first beast, a union of church and state, usher in a new era of papal tyranny on a global scale.
 
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quietthinker

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Josh, I don't think that at this time you could come up with a better or more relevant question.
Most Christians who take any interest in prophecy are looking to Israel and the middle east for all the signs and fulfilments of prophecy. They think that while the USA may be having an indirect impact on prophecy through its support of Israel, they don't recognise any direct prophetic relevancy or role for the USA in the Bible prophetic scenario for the end times. But you are correct in pointing out that the SDA church has a very different perspective, and is quite unique amongst those who study prophecy for the last days. A can see this thread sobering into all sorts of directiona, with every Tom,Dick, and Harry offering their personal or church's view and give the SDA perspective little attention because it creates on many nerves and is too close to home. Yet our eschatological view hasn't changed in 160 years. I'm the beginning, it was considered extremely unlikely because of the political and religious mood in the 1880s, but today, things have dramatically changed, and the SDA picture as we see it is becoming very quickly the only likely scenario.

So here is a very brief summary of what has been or belief for well over a century. And has not changed. If

In the 19th century, Catholics were only admitted into the US on sufferance. The pioneers of the US had no looking for the papacy, having all escaped a tyrannical Europe they saw The papacy as a dangerous enemy. But they had just written a bill of rights and signed off on religious and political freedom. Therefore everyone was welcome, despite the fears many held, particularly of the Jesuits.
SDA teaching has it that the sea beast of revelation 13 is there papal power. A composite of all the powers that preceded her... Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and pagan Rome. Many attributes and characteristics of those former empires can be seen in the Catholic system. They have been discussed numerous times elsewhere, so no need to elaborate here. That beast was to receive a mortal wound which would be healed. It would also rule for 1260 years, following three day for a year formula established previously in prophecy in Numbers and Ezekiel, and born out in many fulfilments, most notably the messianic prophecy of Daniel 9. The papacy's first tenure at the top Brendan in 538, Andy concluded in 1798. In 1798 it's power as a civil ruler was broken. Many laugh national art that time considered the Catholic church finished. She was temporarily, finished as a union of church and state, but she continued in her role as a religious entity.
At this time, I'm the late 18th and early 19th centuries, the second land beast of revelation 13 began its rises to power. This new kid on the block would rise to such prominence that she would restore the prestige and power of three first beast, but on a global scale, giving the Z Vatican unprecedented control over the nation's and over the world religious framework. All this is taking place right now, through the ecumenical work, particularly of the late pope Francis, and looked to be continued by the new pope Leo. It is no coincidence we believe that the new pope is American, is following in the footsteps of former Leo's, and has already spoken strongly in favour of ecumenism. We believe, and not without a great deal of biblical and historical evidence, that that seconds beast is the USA, and will, through forming an image to the first beast, a union of church and state, usher in a new era of papal tyranny on as global scale.
hey brakelite, just for clarity you might want to go over your post and correct auto-correct.....it's done a poor job! :Broadly:
 
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Josho

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Josh, I don't think that at this time you could come up with a better or more relevant question.
Most Christians who take any interest in prophecy are looking to Israel and the middle east for all the signs and fulfilments of prophecy. They think that while the USA may be having an indirect impact on prophecy through its support of Israel, they don't recognise any direct prophetic relevancy or role for the USA in the Bible prophetic scenario for the end times. But you are correct in pointing out that the SDA church has a very different perspective, and is quite unique amongst those who study prophecy for the last days. I can see this thread diverting into all sorts of directions, with every Tom,Dick, and Harry offering their personal or church's view and give the SDA perspective little attention because it grates on many nerves and is too close to home. Yet our eschatological view hasn't changed in 160 years. In the beginning, it was considered extremely unlikely because of the political and religious mood in the 1880s, but today, things have dramatically changed, and the SDA picture as we see it is becoming very quickly the only likely scenario.

So here is a very brief summary of what has been our belief for well over a century. And has not changed.

In the 19th century, Catholics were only admitted into the US on sufferance. The pioneers of the US had no liking for the papacy, having all escaped a tyrannical Europe. They saw the papacy as a dangerous enemy. But they had just written a bill of rights and signed off on religious and political freedom. Therefore everyone was welcome, despite the fears many held, particularly of the Jesuits.
SDA teaching has it that the sea beast of revelation 13 is the papal power. A composite of all the powers that preceded her... Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and pagan Rome. Many attributes and characteristics of those former empires can be seen in the Catholic system. They have been discussed numerous times elsewhere, so no need to elaborate here. That beast was to receive a mortal wound which would be healed. It would also rule for 1260 years, following the day for a year formula established previously in prophecy in Numbers and Ezekiel, and born out in many fulfilments, most notably the messianic prophecy of Daniel 9. The papacy's first tenure at the top began in 538, and concluded in 1798. In 1798 it's power as a civil ruler was broken. Many European nations thought at that time the Catholic church finished. She was temporarily finished as a union of church and state, but she continued in her role as a religious entity.
At this time, in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, the second land beast of revelation 13 began its rise to power. This new kid on the block would rise to such prominence that she would restore the prestige and power of the first beast, but on a global scale, giving the Vatican unprecedented control over the nations and over the world religious framework. All this is taking place right now, through the ecumenical work, particularly of the late pope Francis, and looks to be continued by the new pope Leo. It is no coincidence we believe, that the new pope is American, and is following in the footsteps of former Leo's, and has already spoken strongly in favour of ecumenism. We believe, and not without a great deal of biblical and historical evidence, that that seconds beast is the USA, and will, through forming an image to the first beast, a union of church and state, usher in a new era of papal tyranny on a global scale.

Thanks for taking the time to put this together, I did not know the SDA position on the tribulation is we are already in it, and I could see how that in itself would take this thread in a different direction.

As for the papacy, I believe some Pentecostals and even other protestant denominations share the view that the Catholic Church plays a significant role in Revelation, some even believe that the RCC is Babylon the Great, I can't say I share that view.

As Babylon the Great as a whole does very abominable things, I would more liken it to the way the Western World is heading at the moment, for example there seems to be a rise in interest in witchcraft (and not just an interest, more people seem to be practicing it), then there are the abortion problems, euthanasia is becoming more acceptable, abominable relationships are now very acceptable, society is forgetting what a real man and a woman is, etc.

And USA just happens to be no 1 influencer of the Western World at the moment.

In saying all this even though Western society is on a moral decline, we seem to be living in more peaceful times when compared to what the grandparents and Great grandparents went through in WWI AND II. I can't say that peace in the West will last for too much longer though. If nations like Canada and right here in Australia losen up on euthanasia much more, I could see the death penalty coming back and getting misused. It's a dangerous thing our governments are messing with.
 
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Rockerduck

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All of the Book of Revelation is about Israel and the old Roman empire. The old Roman Empire are those same countries now. The Usa, Canada, Mexico, etc. are not in prophecy.
 
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quietthinker

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All of the Book of Revelation is about Israel and the old Roman empire. The old Roman Empire are those same countries now. The Usa, Canada, Mexico, etc. are not in prophecy.
Look there to put the jig-saw together and the boat will pass you by!
 

PS95

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Josh, I don't think that at this time you could come up with a better or more relevant question.
Most Christians who take any interest in prophecy are looking to Israel and the middle east for all the signs and fulfilments of prophecy. They think that while the USA may be having an indirect impact on prophecy through its support of Israel, they don't recognise any direct prophetic relevancy or role for the USA in the Bible prophetic scenario for the end times. But you are correct in pointing out that the SDA church has a very different perspective, and is quite unique amongst those who study prophecy for the last days. I can see this thread diverting into all sorts of directions, with every Tom,Dick, and Harry offering their personal or church's view and give the SDA perspective little attention because it grates on many nerves and is too close to home. Yet our eschatological view hasn't changed in 160 years. In the beginning, it was considered extremely unlikely because of the political and religious mood in the 1880s, but today, things have dramatically changed, and the SDA picture as we see it is becoming very quickly the only likely scenario.

So here is a very brief summary of what has been our belief for well over a century. And has not changed.

In the 19th century, Catholics were only admitted into the US on sufferance. The pioneers of the US had no liking for the papacy, having all escaped a tyrannical Europe. They saw the papacy as a dangerous enemy. But they had just written a bill of rights and signed off on religious and political freedom. Therefore everyone was welcome, despite the fears many held, particularly of the Jesuits.
SDA teaching has it that the sea beast of revelation 13 is the papal power. A composite of all the powers that preceded her... Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and pagan Rome. Many attributes and characteristics of those former empires can be seen in the Catholic system. They have been discussed numerous times elsewhere, so no need to elaborate here. That beast was to receive a mortal wound which would be healed. It would also rule for 1260 years, following the day for a year formula established previously in prophecy in Numbers and Ezekiel, and born out in many fulfilments, most notably the messianic prophecy of Daniel 9. The papacy's first tenure at the top began in 538, and concluded in 1798. In 1798 it's power as a civil ruler was broken. Many European nations thought at that time the Catholic church finished. She was temporarily finished as a union of church and state, but she continued in her role as a religious entity.
At this time, in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, the second land beast of revelation 13 began its rise to power. This new kid on the block would rise to such prominence that she would restore the prestige and power of the first beast, but on a global scale, giving the Vatican unprecedented control over the nations and over the world religious framework. All this is taking place right now, through the ecumenical work, particularly of the late pope Francis, and looks to be continued by the new pope Leo. It is no coincidence we believe, that the new pope is American, and is following in the footsteps of former Leo's, and has already spoken strongly in favour of ecumenism. We believe, and not without a great deal of biblical and historical evidence, that that seconds beast is the USA, and will, through forming an image to the first beast, a union of church and state, usher in a new era of papal tyranny on a global scale.
Hi Brakelight, to sum that up - is the zinger of the last sentence, that you believe the pope and state with cause us to only be allowed to worship/attend churches only on Sundays? Which would be to the exclusion of Jews, SDA's and 7th day Baptists?

I just don't see that happening. Most Americans don't listen to the pope or the government...
After we saw them close our churches in 2020 while leaving casinos and strip bars open- we have learned.

I believe that we are living in the tribulation as we have been since the apostles said it.
 

Josho

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All of the Book of Revelation is about Israel and the old Roman empire. The old Roman Empire are those same countries now. The Usa, Canada, Mexico, etc. are not in prophecy.
I believe the old Roman empire in Revelation is more symbolic of what the future empire may be, it may not be the geographical location itself, but there will be the same brutality as the old Roman Empire had during John's time.

Rome is nowhere near as powerful now as it was during it's peak, it's now just the capital city of Italy. Sure the Pope has some influence.

But the Uniting Church is far more *progressive* than the Catholic Church though.
 

David in NJ

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Josh, I don't think that at this time you could come up with a better or more relevant question.
Most Christians who take any interest in prophecy are looking to Israel and the middle east for all the signs and fulfilments of prophecy. They think that while the USA may be having an indirect impact on prophecy through its support of Israel, they don't recognise any direct prophetic relevancy or role for the USA in the Bible prophetic scenario for the end times. But you are correct in pointing out that the SDA church has a very different perspective, and is quite unique amongst those who study prophecy for the last days. I can see this thread diverting into all sorts of directions, with every Tom,Dick, and Harry offering their personal or church's view and give the SDA perspective little attention because it grates on many nerves and is too close to home. Yet our eschatological view hasn't changed in 160 years. In the beginning, it was considered extremely unlikely because of the political and religious mood in the 1880s, but today, things have dramatically changed, and the SDA picture as we see it is becoming very quickly the only likely scenario.

So here is a very brief summary of what has been our belief for well over a century. And has not changed.

In the 19th century, Catholics were only admitted into the US on sufferance. The pioneers of the US had no liking for the papacy, having all escaped a tyrannical Europe. They saw the papacy as a dangerous enemy. But they had just written a bill of rights and signed off on religious and political freedom. Therefore everyone was welcome, despite the fears many held, particularly of the Jesuits.
SDA teaching has it that the sea beast of revelation 13 is the papal power. A composite of all the powers that preceded her... Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and pagan Rome. Many attributes and characteristics of those former empires can be seen in the Catholic system. They have been discussed numerous times elsewhere, so no need to elaborate here. That beast was to receive a mortal wound which would be healed. It would also rule for 1260 years, following the day for a year formula established previously in prophecy in Numbers and Ezekiel, and born out in many fulfilments, most notably the messianic prophecy of Daniel 9. The papacy's first tenure at the top began in 538, and concluded in 1798. In 1798 it's power as a civil ruler was broken. Many European nations thought at that time the Catholic church finished. She was temporarily finished as a union of church and state, but she continued in her role as a religious entity.
At this time, in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, the second land beast of revelation 13 began its rise to power. This new kid on the block would rise to such prominence that she would restore the prestige and power of the first beast, but on a global scale, giving the Vatican unprecedented control over the nations and over the world religious framework. All this is taking place right now, through the ecumenical work, particularly of the late pope Francis, and looks to be continued by the new pope Leo. It is no coincidence we believe, that the new pope is American, and is following in the footsteps of former Leo's, and has already spoken strongly in favour of ecumenism. We believe, and not without a great deal of biblical and historical evidence, that that seconds beast is the USA, and will, through forming an image to the first beast, a union of church and state, usher in a new era of papal tyranny on a global scale.
What duz the SDA make of Revelation chapter 17
 

Josho

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Hi Brakelight, to sum that up - is the zinger of the last sentence, that you believe the pope and state with cause us to only be allowed to worship/attend churches only on Sundays? Which would be to the exclusion of Jews, SDA's and 7th day Baptists?

I just don't see that happening. Most Americans don't listen to the pope or the government...
After we saw them close our churches in 2020 while leaving casinos and strip bars open- we have learned.

I believe that we are living in the tribulation as we have been since the apostles said it.
Hmm. I don't think there is much of a link between USA and the new Pope, other than he was born there. I think most Americans are against Catholicism.
 
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quietthinker

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Hmm. I don't think there is much of a link between USA and the new Pope, other than he was born there. I think most Americans are against Catholicism.
Have you ever wondered why there is a mounting regular procession of various Global dignitaries visiting the Pope (that which makes the news) and have you ever noted their body language?

Here's a current one
Reuters Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskiy shakes hands with Pope Leo XIV on the day of his inaugural Mass in St. Peter's Square, at the Vatican, May 18, 2025
 
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quietthinker

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Here's some others...Rubio & JD Vance
EPA Rubio and Vance smile as they sit behind a desk facing the Pope

Who is attending Pope Francis’s funeral?
Mr Trump and his wife Melania
 

Rockerduck

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I believe the old Roman empire in Revelation is more symbolic of what the future empire may be, it may not be the geographical location itself, but there will be the same brutality as the old Roman Empire had during John's time.

Rome is nowhere near as powerful now as it was during it's peak, it's now just the capital city of Italy. Sure the Pope has some influence.

But the Uniting Church is far more *progressive* than the Catholic Church though.
The United Kingdon is part of the old Roman empire. They were the no 1 country through the 1800's. The Old Roman Empire has never gone away, just name changes. The EU is still part of the old Roman Empire. The majority of the book of Revelation is past.
 

Josho

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Hmm. I don't think there is much of a link between USA and the new Pope, other than he was born there. I think most Americans are against Catholicism.
There are more American Catholics than I first thought, however USA is still largely more protestant than Catholic and there seems to be quite a divide between Catholic & Protestant there.

We know this does not mean much it's just survey numbers, however in 2023 a Gallop survey found that 67% of USA is Christian.

Out of those 67%, 33% said they were Protestants, 22% Catholic (which was surprisingly more than I thought), and 11% put down just "Christian", the other 1% were Latter Day Saints.

So to sum it up you have 45% of Americans who are not Catholic & 22% who are Catholic, so they are just too much of a minority in the USA. So I cannot really see much of a link between the 2.

I admit I may be a bit biased when it comes to discussing Catholicism and I do go on the defence for them a bit as I do listen to a few.

From what I see the Catholic Church is more conservative than a number of protestant denominations. Yeah the Pope seems to have a bit of a kingly role, but I would definitely not consider him an anti-Christ. The Pope is just simply the Bishop of Rome, just like the Anglicans have the Archbishop of Canterbury, other than that it's basically just an earthly leadership role for their denomination.
 

Josho

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The United Kingdon is part of the old Roman empire. They were the no 1 country through the 1800's. The Old Roman Empire has never gone away, just name changes. The EU is still part of the old Roman Empire. The majority of the book of Revelation is past.
I would agree to disagree, it's their old territory, it no longer belongs to Rome.