SDAs, USA and the End times.

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Josho

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Have you ever wondered why there is a mounting regular procession of various Global dignitaries visiting the Pope (that which makes the news) and have you ever noted their body language?

Here's a current one
Reuters Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskiy shakes hands with Pope Leo XIV on the day of his inaugural Mass in St. Peter's Square, at the Vatican, May 18, 2025's President Volodymyr Zelenskiy shakes hands with Pope Leo XIV on the day of his inaugural Mass in St. Peter's Square, at the Vatican, May 18, 2025

@quietthinker nope I have never questioned it.

What I more question is why are some politicians who claim to be Catholic so liberal.... when their Church clearly stands against things like abortion and euthanasia and I really hope they are not putting on an act just to gain voters.

But rightfully in that picture above Pope Leo stands for peace in Ukraine, who have been unjustly invaded and terrorised.
 

Josho

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The majority of the book of Revelation is past.
Rocker it may or may not have, if it has then the 1260 days are definitely not literal days, but rather years like what Brakelite stated, however the issue now is, we now have a date when the tribulation started, and we know when roughly Jesus is returning.

If we are indeed in the tribulation, then no one knows when it really started. As no one knows when Jesus is returning.

Then there is the pre-tribulation position of course, I used to pre-trib but now I do not know.
 

Rockerduck

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Rocker it may or may not have, if it has then the 1260 days are definitely not literal days, but rather years like what Brakelite stated, however the issue now is, we now have a date when the tribulation started, and we know when roughly Jesus is returning.

If we are indeed in the tribulation, then no one knows when it really started. As no one knows when Jesus is returning.

Then there is the pre-tribulation position of course, I used to pre-trib but now I do not know.
Hello friend,
I pay attention, research and found many things. I cannot teach online, but I'd like to point out a common phrase. "Nothing is the same since covid". Yes, the world did change, and you remember it. That isn't the only thing.
 
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Brakelite

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Thanks for taking the time to put this together, I did not know the SDA position on the tribulation is we are already in it, and I could see how that in itself would take this thread in a different direction.

As for the papacy, I believe some Pentecostals and even other protestant denominations share the view that the Catholic Church plays a significant role in Revelation, some even believe that the RCC is Babylon the Great, I can't say I share that view.

As Babylon the Great as a whole does very abominable things, I would more liken it to the way the Western World is heading at the moment, for example there seems to be a rise in interest in witchcraft (and not just an interest, more people seem to be practicing it), then there are the abortion problems, euthanasia is becoming more acceptable, abominable relationships are now very acceptable, society is forgetting what a real man and a woman is, etc.

And USA just happens to be no 1 influencer of the Western World at the moment.

In saying all this even though Western society is on a moral decline, we seem to be living in more peaceful times when compared to what the grandparents and Great grandparents went through in WWI AND II. I can't say that peace in the West will last for too much longer though. If nations like Canada and right here in Australia losen up on euthanasia much more, I could see the death penalty coming back and getting misused. It's a dangerous thing our governments are messing with.
Do you think you are perhaps looking at the world as it appears today from your eye witness perspective, and then looking through scripture to find a prophetic parallel? How about we look at scripture first, understand the metaphors and symbolism, and their full implications in history, then we will view the world from a very different perspective.

Let me give you a couple of pointers. Throughout scripture, God's people were symbolised by a woman. If they were unfaithful, God considered them a harlot. If they were faithful, they were like a "comely and delicate" woman. Virtuous, faithful, loyal. In revelation we are shown both. The faithful woman in revelation 12, the harlot in revelation 17,18 etc. On the other hand, beasts are political entities. Governments, nations, empires. The horns that grow from them are the kings or style of government pertaining to that empire.

“3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. 7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. 15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. ”
Revelation 17:3-18 KJV

The above depicts a woman riding a beast. While we can clearly identify Satan from the description of the beast, we must realise that his representative on earth is a government power. The union between church and state is clearly depicted.
That short chapter offers much detail regarding the nature, the character, and the history of that woman/church. Here's some of them...
  • Arrayed in purple and scarlet. Cardinals and bishops prime dress.
  • Ludicrously wealthy in property and assets, but cash strapped and in great debt.
  • Golden cup of abominations. Idolatry.
  • Mother church. Only church in world that calls herself mother.
  • Persecuting church.
  • Was originally a faithful church, but fell away into apostasy.
  • Related to only one location...a city of 7 Hills and the great city that ruled over the kings of the earth when John wrote Revelation.
  • Also, in relation to location, like the description at the beginning of Revelation 13, the beast rising up out of the sea, this one rules in the midst thereof... Peoples, nations, tongues, and tribes. This is in contrast to the second beast off Revelation 13, that comes up out of the land. A more sparcely occupied region compared to Europe of the 18th century... North America
  • Finally, a blasphemous church. In the NT there are 2 principles that scripture identified as blasphemy...a man purporting to forgive sins, and a man claiming to be God. Coincidence that one of the current Leo's predecessors claimed to be occupying the place of God on earth?
 

David in NJ

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There are more American Catholics than I first thought, however USA is still largely more protestant than Catholic and there seems to be quite a divide between Catholic & Protestant there.

We know this does not mean much it's just survey numbers, however in 2023 a Gallop survey found that 67% of USA is Christian.

Out of those 67%, 33% said they were Protestants, 22% Catholic (which was surprisingly more than I thought), and 11% put down just "Christian", the other 1% were Latter Day Saints.

So to sum it up you have 45% of Americans who are not Catholic & 22% who are Catholic, so they are just too much of a minority in the USA. So I cannot really see much of a link between the 2.

I admit I may be a bit biased when it comes to discussing Catholicism and I do go on the defence for them a bit as I do listen to a few.

From what I see the Catholic Church is more conservative than a number of protestant denominations. Yeah the Pope seems to have a bit of a kingly role, but I would definitely not consider him an anti-Christ. The Pope is just simply the Bishop of Rome, just like the Anglicans have the Archbishop of Canterbury, other than that it's basically just an earthly leadership role for their denomination.
Today's protestants are not the same from just 60 years ago.

Roman Catholicism along with the 'falling away' from Truth has infiltrated the churches.

Christianity in the USA is ripe for deception as even now many have been deluded into embracing ecumenicalism.

For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her,
 

David in NJ

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Do you think you are perhaps looking at the world as it appears today from your eye witness perspective, and then looking through scripture to find a prophetic parallel? How about we look at scripture first, understand the metaphors and symbolism, and their full implications in history, then we will view the world from a very different perspective.

Let me give you a couple of pointers. Throughout scripture, God's people were symbolised by a woman. If they were unfaithful, God considered them a harlot. If they were faithful, they were like a "comely and delicate" woman. Virtuous, faithful, loyal. In revelation we are shown both. The faithful woman in revelation 12, the harlot in revelation 17,18 etc. On the other hand, beasts are political entities. Governments, nations, empires. The horns that grow from them are the kings or style of government pertaining to that empire.

“3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. 7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. 15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. ”
Revelation 17:3-18 KJV

The above depicts a woman riding a beast. While we can clearly identify Satan from the description of the beast, we must realise that his representative on earth is a government power. The union between church and state is clearly depicted.
That short chapter offers much detail regarding the nature, the character, and the history of that woman/church. Here's some of them...
  • Arrayed in purple and scarlet. Cardinals and bishops prime dress.
  • Ludicrously wealthy in property and assets, but cash strapped and in great debt.
  • Golden cup of abominations. Idolatry.
  • Mother church. Only church in world that calls herself mother.
  • Persecuting church.
  • Was originally a faithful church, but fell away into apostasy.
  • Related to only one location...a city of 7 Hills and the great city that ruled over the kings of the earth when John wrote Revelation.
  • Also, in relation to location, like the description at the beginning of Revelation 13, the beast rising up out of the sea, this one rules in the midst thereof... Peoples, nations, tongues, and tribes. This is in contrast to the second beast off Revelation 13, that comes up out of the land. A more sparcely occupied region compared to Europe of the 18th century... North America
  • Finally, a blasphemous church. In the NT there are 2 principles that scripture identified as blasphemy...a man purporting to forgive sins, and a man claiming to be God. Coincidence that one of the current Leo's predecessors claimed to be occupying the place of God on earth?
How duz SDA interpret Revelation chapter 17

Perhaps you do not know?
 

Brakelite

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Hi Brakelight, to sum that up - is the zinger of the last sentence, that you believe the pope and state with cause us to only be allowed to worship/attend churches only on Sundays? Which would be to the exclusion of Jews, SDA's and 7th day Baptists?

I just don't see that happening. Most Americans don't listen to the pope or the government...
After we saw them close our churches in 2020 while leaving casinos and strip bars open- we have learned.

I believe that we are living in the tribulation as we have been since the apostles said it.
It was a former Leo that wrote the encyclical, Rerum Novarum. In it he stated how essential it was that Sunday sacredness be restored to the church, just as John Paul did, Benedict, and Francis. All with increasing fervour. But you are correct in observing that such a change to people's thinking in the current climate seems outlandishly unlikely. Yet there are many groups and individuals working behind the scenes, along with the more open efforts from the Vatican and the Sunday Reformers in America, who have been a constant reminder to the world that a legislated Sunday rest is not as it outside the realms of possibility. But that's looking at it appears in the world. Prophetically, it's inevitable. Revelation, if understood correctly, speaks clearly of a global mark of papal authority on all those who
A. Do not keep the commandments of God
B. Have not the seal of God in the foreheads and
C. Have not the testimony of Jesus which is the Spirit of prophecy. (See Revel. 12:17; 14:12; and 19:10).

From Revelation 12 through to 18 there is a clear war between two powers. Satan and Christ, both having agents, Satan imperial government to j Jesus, the church. It isn't about Israel, unless you consider the church as God's Israel. Which I believe it is.
 

David in NJ

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It was a former Leo that wrote the encyclical, Rerum Novarum. In it he stated how essential it was that Sunday sacredness be restored to the church, just as John Paul did, Benedict, and Francis. All with increasing fervour. But you are correct in observing that such a change to people's thinking in the current climate seems outlandishly unlikely. Yet there are many groups and individuals working behind the scenes, along with the more open efforts from the Vatican and the Sunday Reformers in America, who have been a constant reminder to the world that a legislated Sunday rest is not as it outside the realms of possibility. But that's looking at it appears in the world. Prophetically, it's inevitable. Revelation, if understood correctly, speaks clearly of a global mark of papal authority on all those who
A. Do not keep the commandments of God
B. Have not the seal of God in the foreheads and
C. Have not the testimony of Jesus which is the Spirit of prophecy. (See Revel. 12:17; 14:12; and 19:10).

From Revelation 12 through to 18 there is a clear war between two powers. Satan and Christ, both having agents, Satan imperial government to j Jesus, the church. It isn't about Israel, unless you consider the church as God's Israel. Which I believe it is.
Please do not forget/avoid my question (asked 3x)
JESUS says: "To him who asks you to go a mile, go with him for two miles." Matt 5:41

How duz SDA interpret Revelation chapter 17???
 
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Brakelite

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Please do not forget/avoid my question (asked 3x)
JESUS says: "To him who asks you to go a mile, go with him for two miles." Matt 5:41

How duz SDA interpret Revelation chapter 17???
Post #25. I know there's more to it, which is more complicated and needs a fuller explanation. Not avoiding, but a comprehensive answer will need 2 in or 3 seperate posts.
 
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David in NJ

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Post #25. I know there's more to it, which is more complicated and needs a fuller explanation. Not avoiding, but a comprehensive answer will need 2 in or 3 seperate posts.
And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Any suspects for the "ten horns"?
 

Jay Ross

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On the other hand, beasts are political entities. Governments, nations, empires.

I find this claim hard to justify from scripture.

It was however, preached that the "beasts" are political entities, governments, nations and empires by the Reformation Fathers so that they could justify a break away movement from the RCC.

Dan 7:2 is very telling as to the identification of the entities who are the "real" beasts of Daniel 7.

Dan 7:2: - Daniel spoke, saying, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven[1] were stirring up the Great Sea.

Then in Dan 8:8 we see that the four horns, after Alexandra the Great, came up towards the four winds of heaven: -

Dan 8:8: - Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven.​

In both chapters, the four winds of heaven are spiritual entities who have the ability to influence the behaviour political entities, governments, nations and empires.

Now the fifth beast is the little horn which had influence over the horns of the fourth beast as recorded in Daniel 7:8: -

Daniel 7:7-8: - 7 "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.

And as we continue in Daniel 8 we then read this: -

Dan8:9-14: - 9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious {Land}. 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. 12 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.​
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?"​
14 And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."​

Considering verse 14, and applying the year for a day rule which has been applied to Daniel's prophetic words, the 2,300 days is actually 2,300 years.

Also, in Rev 13:11 we are told that the Little Horn/False Prophet is a beast as well.

Now the Little Horn is able to enter into the heavenlies, which no man, except Enoch has ever done, which means that the Little Horn is a spiritual entity, just like the four winds of heaven and is also a heavenly host/fallen angel, because the Little Horn cast out some of the hosts of heaven down to the ground and trampled them.

Now if the Little Horn is a heavenly host then the four winds of heaven are also heavenly hosts and are fallen Angels.

Now in Daniel 7:3 we are told that the four winds of heaven stirred up the sea of humanity such that the described beasts rise up out of the sea of humanity as a manifestation of the four respective winds of heaven/beasts.

Now after the time of the death of Alexandra the Great, probably around 260 BC until the end of this present age, the Little Horn has been given the means and various armies, during different time periods, to trample God's Sanctuary and His Earthly Hosts, i.e. Israel.

Sadly, as humans, we rarely are able to see the fallen angels operating, as they are hidden behind the manifestation of the respective beasts, i.e., people groups, nations and empires, who are doing the respective beasts bidding.

While ever we believe, the successful lie of Satan, that the beasts are of human entities and form, we will have difficulty in understanding the unfolding of the End Times.

Shalom



[1] The “four winds of heaven” are best understood to be four wicked fallen heavenly host that have gained an influence over the earth, in that, their dominate characteristic are manifested within the sea of humanity and these manifestations are described as beasts. The “four winds of heaven” are mentioned in Daniel 7:2, 8:8 and 11:4, and Zechariah 6:5.
 

Jay Ross

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Post #25. I know there's more to it, which is more complicated and needs a fuller explanation. Not avoiding, but a comprehensive answer will need 2 in or 3 separate posts.

Any suspects for the "ten horns"?

The answer to your question is not complicated, the horns do not represent human entities but rather the horns are like mountains and represent false religions, in keeping with the fourth beast and the Little Horn speaking pompous words and blasphemies against the one true God.
 

David in NJ

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The answer to your question is not complicated, the horns do not represent human entities but rather the horns are like mountains and represent false religions, in keeping with the fourth beast and the Little Horn speaking pompous words and blasphemies against the one true God.
This is true since satan has a governing body of fallen angels with him by which they rule this present age.

That which is spiritual is manifested in the physical = Ezekiel chapter 28 - King of Tyre

Therefore the BEAST will rule with 10 fallen angels who will manifest in 10 earthbound provinces.
 

Jay Ross

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Therefore the BEAST will rule with 10 fallen angels who will manifest in 10 earthbound provinces.

That is not my understanding, the ten horns represent ten false religions, not regions on the earth. Whether or not there are 10 fallen angels associated with each of these ten false religions is not clearly indicated. What we are told that at some stage, three of these ten horns will be pulled up roots and all. This indicates to me that three of the ten false religions will die because their roots have been taken out of the place where they are presently, or had been, getting their nourishment from.

Shalom
 

David in NJ

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That is not my understanding, the ten horns represent ten false religions, not regions on the earth. Whether or not there are 10 fallen angels associated with each of these ten false religions is not clearly indicated. What we are told that at some stage, three of these ten horns will be pulled up roots and all. This indicates to me that three of the ten false religions will die because their roots have been taken out of the place where they are presently, or had been, getting their nourishment from.

Shalom
By removing 3 we are left with 7

7 is the Number of MESSIAH

therefore we have a counterfeit messiah in the 7 horns
 

Jay Ross

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By removing 3 we are left with 7

7 is the Number of MESSIAH

therefore we have a counterfeit messiah in the 7 horns

Maybe, but I have not gone down that rabbit hole as it leads to destruction
 

Jay Ross

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Interesting perspective you have there @Jay Ross.

No not really, I have just built my understanding on my own inquiry from reading the scriptures, particularly the source languages used and the understanding of the historical context. I certainly do not accept the flawed contextual basis of the uniformed commentators and translators.
 
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