Secure Eternal Salvation

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Ronald Nolette

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Denominations came about after the reformation.

Before that, any teachings that did not agree with
The existing church were considered heresy.

The reason councils were held was to clarify teachings.

I'm not saying I agree with all doctrine of the CC as it is today, however in the beginning it was a pure church that wanted to carry forward the teachings of Jesus.

The church has always had divisions. and the CC was not the only denomination. There were the eastern churches which eventually broke away and small sects long before the reformation like the Lollards and early ones with many heretical ideas mixed with truth.

Teh early church had many divisions based on which Apostle established the churches. James went to India and the church in India had little to no contact with teh churches in teh ME.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Why not follow the standard so we know what you're speaking of?:

church,,,,,the establishment

Church,,,,the saved ones, or, as Carholics say, the communion of saints.

I so wish we all spoke the same language.

Well then, I will follow what I teach to my classes. When I say church, I mean believers, when I say Christendom, I mean the external form of the church which comprises both believers and unbelievers
 

Ronald Nolette

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Could you please expound on the above??

Well here is a short teaching I adhere to:

MBS_Master (arielcontent.org)

I was hoping that Dr. Fruchtenbaum in this manuscript would expound on the Jewishness of the Lords Supper as he does in his books he wrote and I use to teach on the life of Christ.

But as for teh data I listed, there is no need for expansion, they are simply historical facts.

If there is something specific you had in mind, please let me know and I will try toexound on that.
 

GodsGrace

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Some did, most did not! when the church went gentile it became more and more popular for the church lost the siginificance of which bread and which cup from the seder were used by Jesus!

It was not formalized by the RCC until Pope InnocentIII in 1250

The first writing we have is Ignatius of Antioch c. 110. By this time many parts of the church did not even know these were part of the Passover Seder meal.
The cups of the seder and the meal in general
Is what interests me.

Some years ago I did a small study on the cups of the seder meal and I remember that Jesus did not drink the last cup,,,the 3rd or 4th,,,with the Apostles.
 

GodsGrace

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Well here is a short teaching I adhere to:

MBS_Master (arielcontent.org)

I was hoping that Dr. Fruchtenbaum in this manuscript would expound on the Jewishness of the Lords Supper as he does in his books he wrote and I use to teach on the life of Christ.

But as for teh data I listed, there is no need for expansion, they are simply historical facts.

If there is something specific you had in mind, please let me know and I will try toexound on that.
See my post 2305.
 

GodsGrace

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Well then, I will follow what I teach to my classes. When I say church, I mean believers, when I say Christendom, I mean the external form of the church which comprises both believers and unbelievers
Christendom means all of christianity.
church means just the institution.

We say,,,
What church do you go to?
Did you hear the latest on the church?
The church sure is changing.

But, hey, I have no illusions that I'm going to change the language of Christendom!
 

farouk

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It is Farouk.
Were there elders in the church?
Who did They go to when the church was young?
Maybe James, or Peter or Paul.
They were the elders of the elders.

A rose by any other name..
What I was referring to was the political role; Biblical overseers in the local church do not get their authority from any political role.
 

GodsGrace

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What I was referring to was the political role; Biblical overseers in the local church do not get their authority from any political role.
Agreed.
They get their authority from Christian elders.
They were very much respected.
 

GodsGrace

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What I was referring to was the political role; Biblical overseers in the local church do not get their authority from any political role.
PS
The early church did become embroiled in politics.
This is when everything began to go awry.
 

GodsGrace

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@Behold

Hi Behold
I apologize for not responding to your post.
Was off a few days and now I can't find it.

I know we don't agree on unconditional eternal security.

If you know the number of your post, ok - otherwise next time around.
:)
 

GodsGrace

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Precious friend's input:

Since "plain history" is Neither inspired Nor authoritative, I would trust only
God's Inspired and Authoritative Word Of Truth. Amen?

IF "early church" refers to the political kingdom church [assembly] that Christ
spoke of in Matthew 16:18, which continued at Pentecost, and found as late as
Acts 21:20, with "thousands of Jewish believers ALL zealous of the [Moses']
law,"
then:

Yes, Correct: "NO osas" is in view, as this is "faith without works is DEAD,"
and, "believe AND be [water] baptized" and "endure to the end" to be saved,
IS Exactly What "Christ,
on the earth, TAUGHT" the Twelve, and they taught
Israel's TWELVE tribes = see James 1:1! However, all this "prophecy/law"
MUST BE:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:


Under God's Gospel Of GRACE, today, In God's "Revelation Of The
MYSTERY, The LORD JESUS CHRIST, From Heaven, Taught
Paul,
HIS Chosen apostle to the Gentiles, New and Different information.

This is to The Body Of CHRIST, The Church That HE Established In
Acts Chapter 9, "The ONE New man" {NOT bride/woman} Ephesians 2:15.

This is Plain and Clear that God's ETERNAL Salvation Is Now "By:
GRACE Through faith, APART from ALL works!"
Ramifications are:

God Establishes An ETERNAL Relationship With ALL GRACE believers!
Our ONLY participation in this is to humbly believe, 100% trust, place Total faith,
In The LORD JESUS CHRIST, HIS Death [Precious BLOOD], Burial, And HIS
Resurrection, According To The Scriptures!
(
1 Corinthians 15:3-4; cp Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 3-5 KJB!)

This is NOT a man's temporary salvation to "be kept by keeping faith," since
God Teaches That "HE Is The New OWNER
" Of ALL GRACE believers!
(1 Corinthians 6:19; Romans 14:8), and, Since HIS BLOOD Is ALL Sufficient!:
+
Eph_1:14 [The Holy Spirit] Which is the Earnest of our inheritance Until THE
Redemption of The Purchased Possession, Unto The Praise Of HIS Glory.

Much MORE Corroborating Scriptural Evidence!:

God's OPERATION On ALL New-born babes IN CHRIST!
God's ETERNAL Assurance!!

Conclusion: IF one thinks he/she "can Really LOSE" God's ETERNAL Salvation,
we Sincerely Beseech them to "RE-examine themSELVES" With God, The OWNER,
In The Light Of HIS Exhortation TO
them!:

2Co 13:5
"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
Know ye not your own selves, how That JESUS CHRIST Is In you, except
ye be reprobates?"

HE Simply CANNOT "Be The New OWNER" IF HE is NOT in them!
Make sense?

On the other side, we could continue with "fellowship With HIM,"
where, In Biblical Fact, "one Could lose," IF you wish, Precious friend...

GRACE And Peace...
Bump.

I think I missed your post.
After dinner...
 

Marymog

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Denominationalism is a man made construct and we see the damage it has caused to the name of Christ! But we know that the Apostles established churches. Paul established the gentile church and had no one single ruler over it. Now external Christendom may have 2 billion members, but the saved church has far fewer members.
Yup Ronald. I agree. The Protestant revolution of the 16th century has caused a lot of damage in the name of Christ.

The Apostles did NOT establish churches (plural). Paul did not establish a "gentile church" which was different than the churches established by the other Apostles.

There is One Church with One teaching, and that Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, and that Church is where we are to take our differences when our brother sins against us....Just like Scripture says.

What happened is that the Apostles started new churches in different Cities and they assigned men to those cities that they had taught the truth too. ALL of those new churches, under the guidance of one elder, all taught the same thing. And if there was a difference in doctrine/practice etc among them those individual churches went to The Church to settle their differences: Council of Jerusalem, Acts 15. Soooo your 'gentile church that had no one single rule over it' is a lie someone taught you!

Sooooooo what does it take to become a member of "the saved church" and not be one of 2 billion that are 'un-saved'?
 

Marymog

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18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

Paul specifically shows the Lords supper is a supper. and we do it to show His death, not to eat His body.

Once again study the Passover seder and learn which bread jesus said was His body and which cup was His blood. and as no church had no need to write saying Jesus was not present in the supper, I cannot prove a negative!

YOu said they did! so it is up to you to prove the positive.
Thanks Ronald. I can see how one might construe what you have quoted as being proof that "some churches held the teaching of the Real Presence, but some did not." You said MOST did not hold that teaching and the "proof" you provided does not back up what you said....but I won't belabor the small details.

I find it fascinating that you have been taught that "Paul specifically shows the Lords supper is a supper. and we do it to show His death, not to eat His body."

The vs's you quote literally says "whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord." How can one eat plain old bread "unworthily" and regular old wine "unworthily" Ronald? It can only be done "unworthily" if He is in the bread/wine just like He said in Luke 22:19. Also, He told us we must eat his body and drink his blood. How do you do that Ronald?

Since you like to quote Paul how about you answer these rhetorical questions from him: The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ?

The bread that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ?

How do those rhetorical questions jive with the theory you have been taught that we do NOT eat His body? (even though He told us we must and showed us how to do it)

Bible
Study Mary
 

Marymog

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Well given that bishop was just another name for elder, presbyter, pastor,shepherd, Yes there was an elder in Rome before Peter got there as there was a local assembly in Rome. Paul wrote to the church in Rome in 56-57,

And Peter wrote his epistle from the jewish group in Babylon c. 64-65 AD so that puts Peter in Babylon 7-9 years after Paul wrote his epistle to the Roman church.
Hmmmm.....here are some points to think about on the theory you have been taught that Peter wrote his epistle from Babylon:

First, the book of Revelation symbolically refers to Babylon as Rome (Rev. 16:19; 17:5; 18:2).[1]

Second, Peter says that “Mark” is with him (1 Pet. 5:13). Since we know that Mark was with Paul at the end of his career in the mid-60s (2 Tim. 4:11), it seems likely that Peter is writing from Rome—not Babylon.

Third, Babylon had been long destroyed, and it wasn’t a popular empire anymore. At this period of history, Babylon was a “desolate and ruined city in Mesopotamia.”[2] Diodorus of Sicily (who wrote from 56-36 BC) states, “As for the palaces and the other buildings, time has either entirely effaced them or left them in ruins; and in fact of Babylon itself but a small part is inhabited at this time, and most of the area within its walls is given over to agriculture.”[3] Likewise Strabo (who died in 19 BC) writes, “The greater part of Babylon is so deserted that one would not hesitate to say … The Great City is a great desert.”[4] Therefore, it seems unlikely that Peter would be there.

Fourth, Christians hadn’t reached Babylon at this period in history, and it’s unlikely that Peter would be there with an entire Christian community. Craig Blomberg writes, “No other ancient documents ever suggest that Christianity had reached this area this early (or that it would reach there for several centuries), and Babylon was a long way from the addressees who lived in what we would call western and central Turkey (1:1).”[5]

Fifth, the early Christian leaders claimed that Peter and Paul both died in Rome—not Babylon. It is your Protestant men, 1500 years later, that teach that Peter wasn't in Rome. Dionysius (the bishop of Corinth, AD 170) wrote, “[Peter and Paul] also taught in Italy in the same place and were martyred at the same time” (Cited in Eusebius, Church History, 2.25.8). In the context of writing about Rome, Tertullian (AD 200) wrote, “How happy is its church, on which apostles poured forth all their doctrine along with their blood! where Peter endures a passion like his Lord’s!” (Against Heretics, 36). Eusebius also wrote that Origen (AD 250) claimed that Peter was crucified upside down and Paul was beheaded in Rome under the reign of Nero (Church History, 3.1.2-3). Eusebius adds that Peter “composed this [1 Peter] in Rome itself” (Church History, 2.15.2), getting his information from Papias (AD 110).

Since 2 Peter is written at the very end of Peter’s life (2 Pet. 1:14), it is more likely that Peter was writing from Rome—not Babylon.
 

Ronald Nolette

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The cups of the seder and the meal in general
Is what interests me.

Some years ago I did a small study on the cups of the seder meal and I remember that Jesus did not drink the last cup,,,the 3rd or 4th,,,with the Apostles.

Okay. there are four cups of wine drank at the seder. Jesus took the third aka the cup of redemption.

Four cups of wine are served at different intervals during the Seder meal. Each of these cups represents four phrases and promises God made to the Israelites in Exodus 6:6-7: "I will bring you out"; "I will deliver you"; "I will redeem you"; and "I will take you to me for a people.

Teh bread is one of three loaves that are in a trifolded napkin (representing the trinity). The middle one is taken out (Jesus coming to earth). It had to be unleavened, striped and pierced. It was broken and half eaten and the other half is wrapped and hissen and taken out later.

Connections: The Passover and the Lord’s Supper – Part 3 – Living in the Word
 

Ronald Nolette

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Christendom means all of christianity.
church means just the institution.

We say,,,
What church do you go to?
Did you hear the latest on the church?
The church sure is changing.

But, hey, I have no illusions that I'm going to change the language of Christendom!


Most of us speak the same language, but use it differently depending on many reasons!

When I teach, in order to differentiate between the church which biblically is only the saved, I use Christendom to say the entire external church which is comprised of saved and unsaved in all sects. but that is my way of differentiating in teaching and not some absolute.
 
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