Secure Eternal Salvation

[GodsGrace]

Well for physical structure and business, yes churches need an organization, but for rule and faith, we have all one source-Scripture. Organization is very subjective based on laws and lands and church tastes etc. but We have one head Jesus who instructs us through His Word.

so yes the organism needs organization. Especially since churches started building buildings, buying lands, summer camps, sending missionaries to other lands etc.

I agree.
Frankly, I don't think this organism could have survived without human, earthly organization.

OTOH, I do believe man has done damage to the Body of Christ. Seems like a catch-22.

How's this: I both believe the reformation was necessary, and I dislike it, all at the same time.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I agree.
Frankly, I don't think this organism could have survived without human, earthly organization.

OTOH, I do believe man has done damage to the Body of Christ. Seems like a catch-22.

How's this: I both believe the reformation was necessary, and I dislike it, all at the same time.

I agree with you. It should not have been necessary. But when churches lose focus and will not return to biblical standards, divisions must happen as Paul wrote.

 

[Marymog]

Well there was disagreement, but James rules on a few issues that the gentiles should do to be acceptable to the Jewish church. But there was still a wall of speeration between Jewish and Gentile believers on the individual level in most circles. Old prejudices die hard!

They agreed to a course of action that would make the gentiles acceptable to the Jews! How much agreement flowed down to individuals is unknown.

The fight in Galatia shows the church was not in agreement. This letter was written years after the Jerusalem Council decision.

Oh goodness Ronald....How much agreement flowed down to the individuals DOESN'T MATTER. The Bible consists of letters to churches AND people (Titus, Timothy) because Christianity was not in agreement on some things. Those letters, what we now call Scripture, brought everyone into agreement. Because, as we know, if they (churches OR "individual's") rejected the teachings of the Apostles they rejected Him and if they rejected the Apostles they rejected the One who sent Him (Luke 10:16). It didn't matter if "individuals" agreed.....Scripture makes that VERY CLEAR!!

 

[Marymog]

It is the body of Christ which is the pillar, not some denomination.

What you have been taught by your men is completely and utterly OPPOSITE of what Scripture says. 1 Timothy 3:15 CLEARLY states that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. It DOES NOT say that "Christ" is the pillar. 1 Timothy is backed up by Matthew 18:17 which tells us that if you reject what THE CHURCH tells you then you will be ex-communicated from THE CHURCH!! Scripture does not say that you will be ex-communicated from "the body of Christ"!! Who taught you this stuff?

 

[Marymog]

People need to go to their local assembly to settle differences. When it is different sects that are "believing sects" they should act like men of Goid and meet to discuss.

Ok...so let's put what your men have taught you to the test of logic: You and I currently have a difference here in our discussion. How about if you go to your "local assembly" and I go to my "local assembly" and ask which one of us is right and which one of us should be ex-communicated?

What's going to happen Ronald? Your men are going to disagree with my men and they will say you are right and my men will say I am right. How does putting your theory to the test fulfill Philippians 1:27, 2:2 or Jesus prayer in John 17:21? It doesn't! What you have been taught by your men is opposite of what Scripture teaches. Does it concern you that your men are not telling you the truth?

 

[Marymog]

Constantine and Rome!

Ok...so you have been taught by your men that Constantine was more powerful than God and took the power center of The Church from the elders in Alexandria and gave it to the elders of the church in Rome? Constantine made the men of ROME responsible for the doctrine that all Christians are to accept so that Christianity may be ONE with ONE Church and ONE teaching (like Scripture says) and Alexandria was relegated to 2nd class? Who taught you that? If you REALLY believe that then why are you not a member of the church in Alexandria? I presume you are talking about the Orthodox church?

 

[Marymog]

Makes perfect sense. Jesus did not build an organization on earth, but an organism. So there is no one right sect.

Yes, He did build and organization. He organized the original 12 men and during one of their meetings he told them if they reject you they reject me and he gave them, and only them, the authority to forgive sins. One of the men of that organization then betrayed Jesus and they replaced that man with another man and if anyone rejected the teachings of that organization they were to be treated as a pagan or tax collector (ex-communicated). NO ONE had the authority to start their own "organization" that taught anything different than what the original organization taught. Only ONE 'sect' can be right. Scripture does not show that Jesus started "churches" with multiple teachings. Jesus started a Church with ONE teaching and ONE doctrine that we MUST obey. So, your theory that there is not "one right sect" is wrong. There is "one right sect". You just need to find it. If your theory were true, that all sects have some portion of the Truth that Jesus taught, then that means that man could NEVER know the Truth. But, as we know, the Truth will set us free. How can we ever be set free if we don't KNOW the Truth Ronald??

 

[Marymog]

If you have facutal rebuttal, I am all ears!

Lol....I have given you "factual rebuttals" in the past and you reject them out of hand. You believe what your men have taught you instead of looking at facts.....sooooo why waste my time on a "factual rebuttal"?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Oh goodness Ronald....How much agreement flowed down to the individuals DOESN'T MATTER. The Bible consists of letters to churches AND people (Titus, Timothy) because Christianity was not in agreement on some things. Those letters, what we now call Scripture, brought everyone into agreement. Because, as we know, if they (churches OR "individual's") rejected the teachings of the Apostles they rejected Him and if they rejected the Apostles they rejected the One who sent Him (Luke 10:16). It didn't matter if "individuals" agreed.....Scripture makes that VERY CLEAR!!

On this we agree! The teachings of the Apostles are the first and final word for the church. and those words were closed with the death of JOhn!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What you have been taught by your men is completely and utterly OPPOSITE of what Scripture says. 1 Timothy 3:15 CLEARLY states that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. It DOES NOT say that "Christ" is the pillar. 1 Timothy is backed up by Matthew 18:17 which tells us that if you reject what THE CHURCH tells you then you will be ex-communicated from THE CHURCH!! Scripture does not say that you will be ex-communicated from "the body of Christ"!! Who taught you this stuff?

Which church? and you know what I mean! Iwas threatened with excommunication from the RCC for rejecting transubstantiation, Mary stayed a virgin and she had no sin. For these have no place in Scripture nor should they have any place in the minds and hearts of those who follow Christ!

And according to the present RCC even atheists can make it to heaven now! That is blatant heresy and not a true church teaching. Sorry but when the church veers away from Scripture- we must resist that teaching at all costs!

And remember the church is not a specific sect but people in all sects of Christendom that have trusted in teh death and resurrection of Jesus to save them. that is the church Paul is referring to. there was no denominations back then and Paul would probably vomit at the thought of a denomination as we understand them.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ok...so let's put what your men have taught you to the test of logic: You and I currently have a difference here in our discussion. How about if you go to your "local assembly" and I go to my "local assembly" and ask which one of us is right and which one of us should be ex-communicated?

What's going to happen Ronald? Your men are going to disagree with my men and they will say you are right and my men will say I am right. How does putting your theory to the test fulfill Philippians 1:27, 2:2 or Jesus prayer in John 17:21? It doesn't! What you have been taught by your men is opposite of what Scripture teaches. Does it concern you that your men are not telling you the truth?

Or is it your men that are not telling you the truth. We test all teachings and "doctrines" by what is Scripture. I know your church doesn't.

And what teachings do I hold that are opposite of Scripture? That faith alone through grace apart from any works saves me?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ok...so you have been taught by your men that Constantine was more powerful than God and took the power center of The Church from the elders in Alexandria and gave it to the elders of the church in Rome? Constantine made the men of ROME responsible for the doctrine that all Christians are to accept so that Christianity may be ONE with ONE Church and ONE teaching (like Scripture says) and Alexandria was relegated to 2nd class? Who taught you that? If you REALLY believe that then why are you not a member of the church in Alexandria? I presume you are talking about the Orthodox church?

Nope

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Lol....I have given you "factual rebuttals" in the past and you reject them out of hand. You believe what your men have taught you instead of looking at facts.....sooooo why waste my time on a "factual rebuttal"?

Well when you give me Scripture which is the facts for believers, I will listen, but as you love to give allegorical reinterpretations and slick philosophical arguments, no you have not given factual rebuttals.

You believe what your bishops and popes have taught you whether it is biblical or not.

If Romanism is the true church, then when I gave my life to Christ and went back to Romanism I should have been very very content! But when I was given a bible by my Catholic saved aunt who led me to the Lord, I read and read. I found lots of things wrong with Romanism without any men telling, just the bible. Course this is personal testimony, but it is the testimony of tens of millions who were able to break the bonds of false doctrine in many denominations. If you knew the story of my life after my conversion, you would not write so ignorantly.

 

[Marymog]

And remember the church is not a specific sect but people in all sects of Christendom that have trusted in teh death and resurrection of Jesus to save them. that is the church Paul is referring to. there was no denominations back then and Paul would probably vomit at the thought of a denomination as we understand them.

Oh goodness.....You argue against yourself in this one post: On one hand you say that The Church is "all sects of Christendom that have trusted in the death and resurrection of Jesus to save them" (which is denominationalism) and then go on to say that Paul would vomit at the thought of denominationalism. THAT MAKES ZERO SENSE!!!

On one hand your saying that all the different denominations of Christianity ARE The Church and then you go on to say that Paul would not agree with having multiple denomination's....Which is it Ronald?

I agree with the Ronald that says that Paul would vomit at the thought of multiple denominations. Scripture teaches that there is One Church with One doctrine and One Truth and that Truth shall set us free. Multiple denominations can't all have the Truth when they are all teaching a different truth!

I disagree with the Ronald that says that The Church is all denominations "as long as they have trusted in the death and resurrection of Jesus to save them". Scripture doesn't say that! Scripture says A LOT more than that about The Church and what it takes to be The Church.... Only Ronald and his men believe that theory.

You argue FOR denominationalism and then in one short paragraph argue against it....You should run from the men who have taught you this. Run fast....run far.

You have worn me out with your twisted allegorical reinterpretations and twisted philosophical arguments!!

 

[Marymog]

On this we agree! The teachings of the Apostles are the first and final word for the church. and those words were closed with the death of JOhn!

You have got to be kidding me????????????????????????????

Soooooo your men have taught you that when John died there was no one on earth who could, with authority, say to another person that what they are teaching is a false teaching?????? That is what your men have taught you????? After the death of John anyone can come up with their own interpretation of Scripture and there was NO ONE, not ONE person on earth that could tell them they were a false teacher? The day after John died the ability to KNOW the Truth died????? After the death of the last Apostles if anyone was in disagreement on what Scripture taught it didn't matter. Everyone has the right to their own interpretation of Scripture AFTER John died because there were no Apostles left to interpret Scripture for Christianity?

Oh my goodness.....what men are teaching you Ronald???? Run....run away from them very fast!

 

[Marymog]

I agree with you. It should not have been necessary. But when churches lose focus and will not return to biblical standards, divisions must happen as Paul wrote.

Where did Paul write that divisions MUST happen? What was the context?

Curious Mary

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Oh goodness.....You argue against yourself in this one post: On one hand you say that The Church is "all sects of Christendom that have trusted in the death and resurrection of Jesus to save them" (which is denominationalism) and then go on to say that Paul would vomit at the thought of denominationalism. THAT MAKES ZERO SENSE!!!

Well you misunderstood or I mis wrote- the church is composed of peoples in all denominations who0 have trusted in the death and resurrection of jesus as the full and total payment for their sin.

On one hand your saying that all the different denominations of Christianity ARE The Church and then you go on to say that Paul would not agree with having multiple denomination's....Which is it Ronald?

No people within all denominations that are savced are the church (the ekklesia or called out ones) The church is a body or organism not an organization or denomination.

I agree with the Ronald that says that Paul would vomit at the thought of multiple denominations. Scripture teaches that there is One Church with One doctrine and One Truth and that Truth shall set us free. Multiple denominations can't all have the Truth when they are all teaching a different truth!

And that same Paul recognized that there must be divisions in Christendom so the tried and true can stand out!

I disagree with the Ronald that says that The Church is all denominations "as long as they have trusted in the death and resurrection of Jesus to save them". Scripture doesn't say that! Scripture says A LOT more than that about The Church and what it takes to be The Church.... Only Ronald and his men believe that theory.

It is people not denominations.

You argue FOR denominationalism and then in one short paragraph argue against it....You should run from the men who have taught you this. Run fast....run far.

You have worn me out with your twisted allegorical reinterpretations and twisted philosophical arguments!!

Well seeing as you allegorize my words I find your comments irrelavent.

You have got to be kidding me????????????????????????????

Soooooo your men have taught you that when John died there was no one on earth who could, with authority, say to another person that what they are teaching is a false teaching?????? That is what your men have taught you????? After the death of John anyone can come up with their own interpretation of Scripture and there was NO ONE, not ONE person on earth that could tell them they were a false teacher? The day after John died the ability to KNOW the Truth died????? After the death of the last Apostles if anyone was in disagreement on what Scripture taught it didn't matter. Everyone has the right to their own interpretation of Scripture AFTER John died because there were no Apostles left to interpret Scripture for Christianity?

Oh my goodness.....what men are teaching you Ronald???? Run....run away from them very fast!

There were plenty of men and you cannot see the trees for the forest! There are many many men who can tell someone if they are a false teacher- if their teachings contradict Scripture as written! It is Scripture which was closed at teh death pof John that is the authority that all believers must use to determine right from false teaching- not some books of canon law, like the Jews did and jesus told them "Well you make void the law of God by your traditions".

Where did Paul write that divisions MUST happen? What was the context?

I am surprised you do not know where it is.

1 Corinthians 11
King James Version

11 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.

18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.


Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Well you misunderstood or I mis wrote- the church is composed of peoples in all denominations who0 have trusted in the death and resurrection of jesus as the full and total payment for their sin.

Ok.....You and I have a difference on what Scripture teaches. I don't accept what your men have taught in you that the church is composed of peoples in all denominations who have trusted in the death and resurrection of Jesus as the full and total payment for their sin.

Sooooo which denomination shall you and I go to so that we can settle this difference and fullfil what Matthew 18:17 tells us to do when we have differences? Can you NOW see what your men have taught you is opposite of what Scripture teaches?

 

[amigo de christo]

Where does Scripture say that the "early church had no overseer of multiple churches"?

If we read acts , it becomes very clear that the true overseers of the churches , WERE the apostels .
When they had that dispute , THEY went to the apostles in jerusalem to clear up the matter
THE TWELVE were the overseers of the churches . And peter was not over them , they were all equals .
But it was the church in jerusalem , aka the apostels . Sure there was paul and others who helped to oversee
But even paul went unto that church . Paul did not bow to them nor kiss rings , heck they would not have allowed that nonsense .
BUT you can SEE that was the main overseer . JESUS the corner stone and the twelve apostels . By the time of constantine
it had all fallen . But like the jews had fallen too , at least they had scribes who did faithfully keep the scrips .
My advice is let all that draws breath come out of her . The true church still abounds , its the lambs .
And lambs dont let lambs sit under that which teaches falsehoods .

 

[amigo de christo]

Your self description fits you perfectly, Marymog.

Now, notice below the leaders of the "cult of the Virgin".
You must be so proud.
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View attachment 20634

Ye shall make no images to bow down to them . This is an abomination unto God .
THEY bow before images that cannot speak , nor move , having eyes they see not
having ears they hear not , and so is everyone who bows down unto them .
I do believe HE , as in pope francis IS BOWING before an image . But then , we both know he aint the first one
in that CHURCH TO DO SO . THIS is why i say COME OUT from amongst them . TRY and help them
do try and point them to Christ , but if they refuse to hear the truth , refuse to repent of error . Well
we have to then follow the pattern CHRIST and later paul and the apostels would teach . KEEP not unity
with those who refuse correction , be not unequally yoked . All we can do is speak the truth