Secure Eternal Salvation

[Ferris Bueller]

According to Revelation no one is yet in Hell.

The place of punishment where the lost dead go. Not the lake of fire. That happens at the end of the age.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Interesting! I appreciate your clarity. Your flesh is being conformed to your spirit.

When it says, put off the flesh, what does that mean to you?

Much love!

Put off it's evil and corrupt ways.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Speaking not for me . . .

I don't call what God does a mistake.

Much love!

I don't either.
The point is, God does indeed do things he knows ahead of time will fail. So it's impossible to use the argument that God does not save people he knows ahead of time won't continue to believe.

 

[marks]

I showed you exactly what it is that you are biased about. So it's not an Ad Hominem attack. I'm attacking your biased theology.

Nonsense. Ad hominem, a way to undermine the person instead of engaging the debate. Seek to impugn the argument by impugning your opponent. Kid's stuff.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Put off it's evil and corrupt ways.

What about it's ways that aren't corrupt, the reformed part? Put that on?

 

[marks]

So it's impossible to use the argument that God does not save people he knows ahead of time won't continue to believe.

Hm. OK.

It's not an argument I use, all I really need do is quote the Scriptures, the passages speak for themselves.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If you can be "saved until you are not", you have removed certainty. God speaks with the certainty of our salvation, which you deny exists.

I do not deny the certainty of salvation.
You are most certainly and assuredly saved in your state of believing.
See, the problem you have is you have the OSAS presupposition stuck in your head that salvation means 'always saved'. It's the famous circular reasoning of the OSAS argument. It goes like this: "We know once you are saved you are always saved because the Bible says you are saved." So, when I suggested that you are saved as long as you continue to believe you instantly saw that as not being saved, because being saved in your mind is defined as being always saved.

 

[marks]

That he knows the Bible better than you.

That's not what I'd be saying of those who would try to put doubt where God puts certainty. It seems someone who knows the Bible wouldn't be contradicting it. But then, that's not really true, is it?

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

What about it's ways that aren't corrupt, the reformed part? Put that on?

We are told to clothe ourselves with Christ.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

That's not what I'd be saying of those who would try to put doubt where God puts certainty.

Then, you obviously think Paul is putting doubt where God puts certainty when he tells the Corinthians that "you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:1-2).

 

[marks]

See, the problem you have is you have the OSAS presupposition stuck in your head that salvation means 'always saved'.

What I stuck in my head are the specific words of Scripture, which you continue to assert don't really mean what they say.

Saved can mean pulling a cat from a tree, can't we get a little more sophisticated in our arguments?

If you've been raised with Christ, you will appear with Christ.

Look closely and point to the place talk about "saved". This is about, If you've been raised with Christ, you Shall appear Him. Simple. Straightfoward. Not, ongoing being raised. He came out of the tomb alive, and those who are co-raised with him do the same. And those so raised with Him shall appear with Him.

Simplicity in understanding. You only need to read the passage, and it's right there.

Much love!

 

[marks]

We are told to clothe ourselves with Christ.

Which is the reformed part of your flesh? What are you saying?

I don't know that this idea that our flesh is being reformed really matches the way Scripture reads. Not to mention, the flesh is condemned because of sin.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

But rather then just say straight out that our salvation is unsure until we are dead - Catholics are bold enough to say that, others too - you maintain at the same time the certainty of our salvation , "Oh yes! I can know!", and the uncertainty, as it may be gone from us one day "but if you stop believing . . .".

You're doing it again.
You're assuming salvation means by definition always saved.

 

[marks]

You're assuming salvation means by definition always saved.

It means what it means in context.

And the verses I'm pointing to, don't even use that word.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Then, you obviously think Paul is putting doubt where God puts certainty when he tells the Corinthians that "you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:1-2).

You don't know what I think, and it's not your place to say. There' no necessary equality between your words and Paul's.

More ad hominem vanity.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV
1) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Context adds understanding, would you agree? How do you know you are saved? You endure. That's how. But if you've believed in vain, that is, in an empty or meaningless way - vanity - then when the time of testing comes, you fall away, because you aren't really a new creation. Testing proves that.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Which is the reformed part of your flesh? What are you saying?

I don't know that this idea that our flesh is being reformed really matches the way Scripture reads. Not to mention, the flesh is condemned because of sin.

Much love!

This is what I'm saying... ↓↓↓

"...anyone who has suffered in his body is done with sin. 2Consequently, he does not live out his remaining time on earth for human passions, but for the will of God." 1 Peter 4:1-2
​

This is flesh conformed to the will of God. It is flesh brought under the control and authority of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

"I have everlasting life, but it may not last"?

I say, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

This is a perfect example of what I was talking about in a previous post.
You can only see 'eternal life' as meaning you can't lose it. It's the only way you are able to understand eternal life. You are literally incapable of seeing there is an alternate understanding about eternal life is (the one the Bible teaches). And so you think I'm saying eternal life is two contradictory things at the same time (you have eternal life forever, but you can lose it). That's only contradictory according to how OSAS defines eternal life.

See, with the OSAS mindset if I told you that the car I gave you has an everlasting paint job to you that means you can never lose that car. And you can't see how that can mean anything else. But as even you should be able to see in my example, everlasting is a quality of the car itself, not a declaration that you can never lose the car. The paint job can in fact be everlasting, and be lost at the same time.

 

[marks]

You can only see 'eternal life' as meaning you can't lose it.

I actually said there "everlasting life". Everlasting describes the duration of the life, while "eternal" is more the type of life.

Eternal life, which is knowing God, is everlasting, that is, never ending. "Age-during" is how Young translates it.

If you think you have everlasting life but then you die, you were wrong. If you truly have everlasting life . . . well, you shall in fact appear with Him.

Much love!

 

[marks]

See, with the OSAS mindset if I told you that the car I gave you has an everlasting paint job to you that means you can never lose that car.

If you told me it had an everlasting paint job I'd consider that to be very sloppy language.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It means what it means in context.

Then you admit there are references to having salvation that do not mean you will always have salvation?