Secure Eternal Salvation

[Ferris Bueller]

How real is the new creation to you? Do you think of it more as an idea?

My spirit is absolutely different, now that my spirit is in union with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

A nice goal of behavior to attain to?

Now my flesh is being conformed to be line with the transformation that has occurred in my spirit.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So that's a yes, God makes mistakes??

Or are you simply avoiding giving a clear answer?

God does things that aren't successful (i.e. the covenant of law).
We call them mistakes.
But God uses what he knows will fail for a greater purpose.
So there's no way to use an argument that God does not do what he knows will fail.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You are saved absolutely for certain no 'ifs', 'ands' or 'buts', except if you do/don't whatever.

That last part negates the first part.

You need to start paying attention! lol.

You are saved...until you're not.
Why is this so hard?
It's because you're trapped in the OSAS paradigm of thought. You see your problem is you automatically hear 'always saved' when you hear 'saved'. You instantly define 'saved' as 'always saved'. And so everything you hear gets filtered through that. What this means is when you read a passage that says "you are saved" you instantly think, "see, you are always saved because, you are saved." It's the circular reasoning of OSAS.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Deut. is abouit teh Lord going before Israel in battle and that was written as a condition! Hebrews 13 is not conditional.

No, it says he will never leave or forsake you, unless you leave and forsake him.
It has nothing to do with going into battle. The context is obeying God and not breaking the covenant.

"They will forsake Me and break the covenant I have made with them.17On that day My anger will burn against them, and I will abandon them and hide My face from them, so that they will be consumed, and many troubles and afflictions will befall them.​

"On that day they will say, ‘Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is no longer with us?’18And on that day I will surely hide My face because of all the evil they have done by turning to other gods." Deuteronomy 31:16-18​

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well your slick cunningness not withstanding, let us post teh rest of Jesus thought of Matthew 7.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Now notice jesus DID NOT say "I knew you once but I don't know you now?" But He did say "I NEVER KNEW YOU! These are those who were never saved!

You've completely missing the point here.
I was making an argument against the cherry-picking of Scripture and inventing false doctrines around them.

In post #20 - YOU used the following verse to "prove" that OSAS was Biblical:
Romans 10:9
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

I presented Matt. 7:21 as context.
My position ALL along hasa been that for virtually EVERY verse that you guys present as "proof" for the fallacy of OSAS - there is another verse that shows the CONDITIONS and context for those verses.

Remember - ALL Scripture must harmonize.
If YOUR doctrines contradict Scripture - then YOUR doctrines are wrong - NOT Scripture.

YOu mean like how you blow off verses like I give them eternal life and they shall NEVER perish" or I will never leave thee or forsake thee?

I accept these verses 100% in their proper context and usage!

Your scholars are all correct . Lightfoot is correct when the context refers to Christians.

and the exegetical dictionary is only correct if it gives that definition as one of the definitions.

But epignosis as simply defined is this:

Strong's Number: 1922 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
epignosiß from (1921)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Epignosis 1:689,119
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ep-ig'-no-sis Noun Feminine
Definition

1. precise and correct knowledge
   1. used in the NT of the knowledge of things ethical and divine

NAS Word Usage - Total: 20
acknowledge* 1, knowledge 14, real knowledge 1, true knowledge 4

epi-

a prefix occurring in loanwords from Greek, where it meant “upon,” “on,” “over,” “near,” “at,” “before,” “after” (epicedium; epidermis; epigene; epitome); on this model, used in the formation of new compound words (epicardium; epinephrine).

gnosis
(ˈnəʊsɪs)
n, pl -ses (-siːz)
(Ecclesiastical Terms) supposedly revealed knowledge of various spiritual truths, esp that said to have been possessed by ancient Gnostics
[C18: ultimately from Greek: knowledge, from gignōskein to know]

It correctly means to have a more intimate knowledge of something.

gnosis--- to know of something/someone
epignosis--- to know something or someone.

You err on Rom. 11:22 because Paul is not writing about individuals but ethnos groups and being placed in the place of blessing.

Losing your salvation and security is NOT about Jesus "leaving" you.
It's about YOU leaving HIM.

Nobody can pluck us out of His hand (John 10:28) - be WE can walk away by our OWN doing. That's what the following warnings are ALL about (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 10:12, 1 Tim. 4:1, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb. 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

As to your nonsense about Epignosis - I gave you a list of varried definitions by several eminent, educated Protestant scholars - and they don't see it as YOU do. The word "Epignosis" is used only FIFTEEN times in Scripture because of the gravitas it carries. It's a very specific word that employs the very essence of a real, experiential relationship - faith itself.

BOTH Paul (Rom. 11:22) and Peter (2 Peter 2:20-22) were writing to born again followers of Christ who has an epignosis pf Him.

 

[marks]

You need to start paying attention! lol.

You need to remember your manners.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You are saved...until you're not.
Why is this so hard?

I really don't expect you to concede the point, of course. Only to point out to any other readers who may be being confused over this question, your inconsistency and the internal contradictions of your statements.

If you can be "saved until you are not", you have removed certainty. God speaks with the certainty of our salvation, which you deny exists. But rather then just say straight out that our salvation is unsure until we are dead - Catholics are bold enough to say that, others too - you maintain at the same time the certainty of our salvation , "Oh yes! I can know!", and the uncertainty, as it may be gone from us one day "but if you stop believing . . .".

"I have everlasting life, but it may not last"?

I say, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have it both ways. I'm thinking you know that.

Much love!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your grave error here is that you entirely ignore context.

This is being written to Hebrews--after teh siege of Jerusalem began in 66 AD. but before Titus returned in 68 AD to finish the siege and destroy Jerusalem!
But let us look at the verse:

Hebrews 10:24-29
King James Version

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

The sin is rejecting Jesus in context.

Now a quick history of what is happening here. Jews were being saved almost daily. They also had paracletes or those who were not yet saved but who walked alongside of the believing Jews. Persecution was terrible both from Rome and the Pharisees and Sadducees. Believing Jews were ostracized from society and relationships in Israel. Enormous pressure was put on those considering to become believers not to. Some did turn back. Hebrews 6 explains this well:


Hebrews 6
King James Version

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

When this is torn apart in the Greek, and keeps it in context, it paints a much different picture instead of a believer can lose their salvation.

Without going into many pages of explanation what this verse is saying in context and in the original language is this:

If one of these paracletes (those who are favorably walking alongside the believers), has been explained the gospel and understand that Jesus is Messiah and the law cannot save, if they should turn back and return to the Mosaic Law for salvation, they face imminent death of the 70 AD judgment prophesied in Luke 21.

They were told the truth, recognized it as truth, but by turning away and rejecting it, would require Jesus to be crucified again for their sin (unbelief). This is also physical death versus spiritual death. If Josephus and the traditions are correct, when Titus came back and finished teh siege and destruction of Jeruslaem, not one believing Jew died while over 1.1 million Jews died.

I've done nothing BUT provide context to all of the cherry-picking going on here.
YOU seem to be doing nothing but dancing AROUND the issue.

ALL of this goes back to your rejection of the term, "Epignosis", which is really the final nail on the OSAS coffin.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.


Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

 

[marks]

God does things that aren't successful (i.e. the covenant of law).
We call them mistakes.

Speaking not for me . . .

I don't call what God does a mistake.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Now my flesh is being conformed to be line with the transformation that has occurred in my spirit.

Interesting! I appreciate your clarity. Your flesh is being conformed to your spirit.

When it says, put off the flesh, what does that mean to you?

Much love!

 

[Pythagorean12]

Look at Israel, lol.
A chosen race, and yet the vast majority of them are in hell.

According to Revelation no one is yet in Hell.

 

[marks]

No, it says he will never leave or forsake you, unless you leave and forsake him.

Once again, this added part adds uncertainty where God gives certainty.

Hebrews 13:5-6 KJV
5) Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
6) So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

One of His many great and precious promises. And it's benefit is lost if one does not believe. What are we to say of those through whom these things come?

Much love!

 

[marks]

It's because you're trapped in the OSAS paradigm of thought.

You are asserting here that I am misinterpreting the text because of a cognitive bias, which is a classic Ad Hominem (to the man) argument. I think it's better to avoid diverting the discussion to such personal comments, and keep the focus on the text of the Bible.

You can say whatever you want about me. But that doesn't have ANY effect on what the Bible says.

If you want to show that the Bible means what you assert it means, do that. This is not that. This is just inappropriate.

Much love!

 

[Pythagorean12]

So that's a yes, God makes mistakes??

Or are you simply avoiding giving a clear answer?

Much love!

He's not referring to our God.
God of scripture is nothing like the one he's referring to.

 

[Pythagorean12]

No, you are indeed saved up until the time you depart from the faith.
Paul says present tense believing means present tense salvation (1 Corinthians 15:2).

That is not what Paul is telling the Corinthians.
If the Corinthians believe a false teaching they're not in right standing with God.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

That is not what Paul is telling the Corinthians.
If the Corinthians believe a false teaching they're not in right standing with God.

It says they are saved if they hold fast to the gospel HE taught them.
Do you think they believed a false gospel? Did Paul teach them a false gospel?
No, of course not.
He tells them they are saved if they hold fast to what HE taught them.

"1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." 1 Corinthians 15:1-2​

The "otherwise you have believed in vain" part is referring to if Christ has not really risen from the dead. Then they aren't saved if they hold fast to what Paul preached to them. For he will have preached a false gospel to them.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You are asserting here that I am misinterpreting the text because of a cognitive bias, which is a classic Ad Hominem (to the man) argument. I think it's better to avoid diverting the discussion to such personal comments, and keep the focus on the text of the Bible.

I showed you exactly what it is that you are biased about. So it's not an Ad Hominem attack. I'm attacking your biased theology.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

He's not referring to our God.
God of scripture is nothing like the one he's referring to.

I proved to you from the Bible that God does indeed do things that he knows ahead of time will fail.
So that can't be used as an argument to somehow prove that does not save people he knows ahead of time will not keep believing to the very end.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

One of His many great and precious promises. And it's benefit is lost if one does not believe. What are we to say of those through whom these things come?

That he knows the Bible better than you.