Shall we discuss this?

[Ronald Nolette]

I do disagree with you final sentence as it certainly is not clear to me. I have been reading my three Bibles [English, German & Spanish] daily along with talking to God for many years. Yes, God has shown me many new things during this time, but not much on this subject.

I rarely get into in depth discussions about the nature of God [Godhead?] any more as it is very often not edifying. I have done it many times in the past on this forum and other forums for 20 some years to no avail. I have heard all of the arguments that people provide to this side or for that side many times before. I have read all of those verses and others many times before. I have talked to God about it. Only God gives the increase, You believe in a Trinity, but I do not. If we are sincere and God wants us to change, He will change us.

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." Matt 5:6

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase" I Cor 3:5-7

Well we must be willing to be changed when facts are presented if God is to change us!

You are free to reject the Trinity- that is your privilege! But then you hold the Holy Spirit is not God and Jesus is not God. So what are they?

YOu must also accept along with the Watchtower and the adherents of ancient Origen and Arius that jesus was simply a created being.

I suspect you are more interested in this than you declare! If you have been doing this for 20 years, either you are a true unitarian and are seeking to convert trinitarians, or you have a deep urging to continue down the path.

Trinity is a made up word yes. It was used to distinguish from Satan's old counterfeit of the pagan triads of gods But it does describe what is written in Scripture as to who God is!

The Father is god, The Son is God and the Spirit is God! It is not tri-modalism but a tri-unity! They all share equal divinity though they do not share equal position in the God head.

 

[user]

No elohim is just plural and doesn't mean trinity- just more than one!

Don't need luck. The indefinite "a" is not in the Hebrew and so God made Moses God to Pharoah. You need to take it up with God Himself. Even The basic Strongs concordance shows it is plural.

Great! You say MOSES is MORE than ONE - Good luck with that.

 

[amadeus]

Well we must be willing to be changed when facts are presented if God is to change us!

Facts? Are we not to live by faith as Paul wrote? And faith?

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb 11:1

Believers in God and His Son do have some facts, but generally speaking they seldom know the difference between facts know and faith held. There certainly are Absolute Truths [ATs] as soon as a person starts to spell them he may finding himself stumbling over his own feet... or eating his own flesh!

You are free to reject the Trinity- that is your privilege! But then you hold the Holy Spirit is not God and Jesus is not God. So what are they?

I do not and never have rejected the Trinity. I simply do not embrace it. God is what He is and He has not shared all of the details with me. You along with others I have seen use man's logic as if this were an problem in arithmetic where 2 + 2 is always equal to 4.

To you on this thread I don't believe I have mentioned the Holy Spirit. But to use some that logic consider: God is Holy, is He not? God is a Spirit, is He not? Does that not equal a or the Holy Spirit? As Jesus being God, I never have said that he is not, have I? What do we read in the scripture?

"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." Heb 1:5-8

YOu must also accept along with the Watchtower and the adherents of ancient Origen and Arius that jesus was simply a created being.

You and your logic of men. It can be a useful tool, but apparently scarcely an absolute scientific method seeing how some say that there are now some 30 to 40 thousand Christian denominations all based on what the Bible says. Some of them completely contradict each other on some issues. Why is that?

I suspect you are more interested in this than you declare! If you have been doing this for 20 years, either you are a true unitarian and are seeking to convert trinitarians, or you have a deep urging to continue down the path.

Why do you try to put on me as my objective being similar to or equal to yours? My objective is to please God and to do His will whatever that is and wherever it leads me. I am one of His sheep and I hear His voice and not the voice of strangers... when I am walking in the Spirit. I don't try to convert people to where I am. I try to follow God's lead and I will respond to people when they ask me a question in the right Spirit ... or when God directs me to answer. There is a time to silent and a time to speak [Ecc 3:7]

Trinity is a made up word yes. It was used to distinguish from Satan's old counterfeit of the pagan triads of gods But it does describe what is written in Scripture as to who God is!

The scriptures may be used to described to support probably all of the 30 to 40 thousand sets of beliefs of Christians. This includes Oneness, Trinitarians, etc. Without the Holy Spirit quickening what we read then our old man pops up his head to lead us into error. Who is a liar? Paul cites the OT that every man is a liar. Anyone who misses the truth even in one point and teaches it so is indeed a liar even if an unintentional liar.

The Father is god, The Son is God and the Spirit is God! It is not tri-modalism but a tri-unity! They all share equal divinity though they do not share equal position in the God head.

By faith or by knowledge do you speak these things? Remember what I just cited regarding liars!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

So do you believe you are one of Jesus spirit begotten disciples and thus part of the 144,000 of the Watchtower? If not you are not a spirit begotten one.

And if you had an inkling of knowledge of the Greek you would know this verse: In 1 Peter 3:18 we are told: “Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.” made alive is by the Spirit, not in teh spirit.

Look upi the word resurrection! it is ana-stasis it means a standing up again ! Did Jesus die a spirit creature or a man? However He died if He resurrected that is how He resurrected!

John 2:18-22
King James Version

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Why not believe Gods Inspired Word instead of a man made organization?

Luke 24:38-40
King James Version

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

The Watchtower Organization said jesus manufactured bodies as He needed them to show He was risen. where is this in Gods Word?

They said the body was given as a ransom, but it is the blood that was given for the payment for sin.

Leviticus 17:11
King James Version

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.


Jesus conquered death in His own body- that is why He is called the firstfruits of the Resurrection!

I tell you what you go ahead and believe Jesus was immortal all you want to before he sacrificed his human life. That means if you believe that, you're saying Jesus didn't die. Immortality means beyond death, death has no hold on him. This didn't happen until after his resurrection not before. Check it out Jesus was a mortal human being like us before he died. After his death he was resurrected with a immortal body. So if you trying to say Jesus was resurrected with the same mortal body and death still has a hold on him, then you're wrong.

 

[kcnalp]

Of course you are and that's on you. Nobody is forcing you to be like that, you choose to be like that.

You're the one who calls Jesus "a god", not me. Is Michael the JW's savior? Of course I don't expect you to answer.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

You're the one who calls Jesus "a god", not me. Is Michael the JW's savior? Of course I don't expect you to answer.

In the scriptures, some people have or are called by more than one name. It's not uncommon for persons to be known by more than one name. For example, “Simon the son of John” also came to be known as Cephas and Peter. (Joh 1:42) Nor was it exceptional for Nathanael to be called Bartholomew, or the “Son of Tolmai,” as another man was called simply Bartimaeus, or “Son of Timaeus.” (Mr 10:46) The two names, Nathanael and Bartholomew, are used interchangeably by Christian writers of following centuries. Jacob also went by the name Israel. So it's not unreasonable that the Only Begotten Son of God had the name Michael when in heaven before he became human and Jesus when he became human and uses both names after his resurrection.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Great! You say MOSES is MORE than ONE - Good luck with that.

Well if you do no tunderstand how delegating authority works that is your issue not mine or the Bibles..

One police officer represents all the entire law enforcement authority of that city or town! He is one who stands in the place of many. Think on that and you will understand.

Moses represented God (who is a plural entity) though He is a single person. Why do find that so difficult ? We see that happen every day. One person being called a company in the place of the company etc.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

In the scriptures, some people have or are called by more than one name. It's not uncommon for persons to be known by more than one name. For example, “Simon the son of John” also came to be known as Cephas and Peter. (Joh 1:42) Nor was it exceptional for Nathanael to be called Bartholomew, or the “Son of Tolmai,” as another man was called simply Bartimaeus, or “Son of Timaeus.” (Mr 10:46) The two names, Nathanael and Bartholomew, are used interchangeably by Christian writers of following centuries. Jacob also went by the name Israel. So it's not unreasonable that the Only Begotten Son of God had the name Michael when in heaven before he became human and Jesus when he became human and uses both names after his resurrection.

Your error is that Nathaniel was bartolmai Bar meaning son of Tolmai being his father. So that was natural. All teh others the Bible shows where god changed their neames.

But for Jesus- No where is He called MIchael before or after His incarnation! That is a man made organizations hypothesis without evidence.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I do not and never have rejected the Trinity. I simply do not embrace it. God is what He is and He has not shared all of the details with me. You along with others I have seen use man's logic as if this were an problem in arithmetic where 2 + 2 is always equal to 4.

To you on this thread I don't believe I have mentioned the Holy Spirit. But to use some that logic consider: God is Holy, is He not? God is a Spirit, is He not? Does that not equal a or the Holy Spirit? As Jesus being God, I never have said that he is not, have I? What do we read in the scripture?

Well you need to define what you mean you do not embrace. Cuz to typical folks that means non acceptance.

And you pose some fine logic. But that logic fails in light of the Scriptures that define the Holy Spirit as a separate and distinct person of the God head! so while the Father is a Spirit and He is holy---He is not THE Holy Spirit!

The best example in Scripture is this:

Matthew 3:16-17
King James Version

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Here we see all three persons of teh God head engaged.

The Father speaking from heaven
The son having left the Water
and the Spirit like a dsove descending upon Jesus.

I don't think the Father is a ventiloquist and threw His voice from earth to Heaven.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I tell you what you go ahead and believe Jesus was immortal all you want to before he sacrificed his human life. That means if you believe that, you're saying Jesus didn't die. Immortality means beyond death, death has no hold on him. This didn't happen until after his resurrection not before. Check it out Jesus was a mortal human being like us before he died. After his death he was resurrected with a immortal body. So if you trying to say Jesus was resurrected with the same mortal body and death still has a hold on him, then you're wrong.

You arr for you know not the Scriptures nor the power of both Yahwehs! But ponder Philippians 2 and I will pray God will show you His truth instead of man made organizations truth.

And no I am not saying Jesus was resurrected mortal. READ 1 CORINTHIANS 15 AND UNDERSTAND THE RESURRECTION BODY EVERY SAVED INDIVIDUAL WILL RECIEVE!

the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Jesus has a glorified immortal physical body! That is SCripture and not the subtle philosophy of a man made organization!

 

[kcnalp]

In the scriptures, some people have or are called by more than one name. It's not uncommon for persons to be known by more than one name. For example, “Simon the son of John” also came to be known as Cephas and Peter. (Joh 1:42) Nor was it exceptional for Nathanael to be called Bartholomew, or the “Son of Tolmai,” as another man was called simply Bartimaeus, or “Son of Timaeus.” (Mr 10:46) The two names, Nathanael and Bartholomew, are used interchangeably by Christian writers of following centuries. Jacob also went by the name Israel. So it's not unreasonable that the Only Begotten Son of God had the name Michael when in heaven before he became human and Jesus when he became human and uses both names after his resurrection.

Ok, Michael is your savior. Jesus is mine.

 

[user]

Moses represented God (who is a plural entity) though He is a single person. Why do find that so difficult ? We see that happen every day. One person being called a company in the place of the company etc.

ELOHIM is being used individually to describe ashtoreth, chemosh, and milcom - each of whom still only one, not a plurality...

1 Kings 11:33 Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess (ELOHIM) of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god (ELOHIM) of the Moabites, and Milcom the god (ELOHIM) of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father.

 

[amadeus]

Well you need to define what you mean you do not embrace. Cuz to typical folks that means non acceptance.

And you pose some fine logic. But that logic fails in light of the Scriptures that define the Holy Spirit as a separate and distinct person of the God head! so while the Father is a Spirit and He is holy---He is not THE Holy Spirit!

The best example in Scripture is this:

Matthew 3:16-17
King James Version

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Here we see all three persons of teh God head engaged.

The Father speaking from heaven
The son having left the Water
and the Spirit like a dsove descending upon Jesus.

I don't think the Father is a ventiloquist and threw His voice from earth to Heaven.

You have simply fallen back on some of the same arguments I have heard from many others over the years. When I said I did not "embrace" I was trying communicate that while I don't believe in a Trinity of God, neither do I reject it. Without a revelation from God on it, how could I reject it? When I can see only through a glass darkly on these things how could I make a definitive choice when that part of the picture remains blurred with no clearly defined boundaries?

As for the separateness of the Holy Spirit from the Father, why is it that in greetings of so many epistles in the NT both the Father and the Son are greeted, but the Holy Spirit is not even mentioned? I remember asking someone that question on a forum 20 years ago. One person responded that it was a good question, but neither he nor anyone since been able to explain to me why NT would so neglect this part of God, if indeed the Trinity is what they say that it is?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

ELOHIM is being used individually to describe ashtoreth, chemosh, and milcom - each of whom still only one, not a plurality...

1 Kings 11:33 Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess (ELOHIM) of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god (ELOHIM) of the Moabites, and Milcom the god (ELOHIM) of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father.

Doesn't matter, it is still plural--elowah is the singular.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You have simply fallen back on some of the same arguments I have heard from many others over the years. When I said I did not "embrace" I was trying communicate that while I don't believe in a Trinity of God, neither do I reject it. Without a revelation from God on it, how could I reject it? When I can see only through a glass darkly on these things how could I make a definitive choice when that part of the picture remains blurred with no clearly defined boundaries?

As for the separateness of the Holy Spirit from the Father, why is it that in greetings of so many epistles in the NT both the Father and the Son are greeted, but the Holy Spirit is not even mentioned? I remember asking someone that question on a forum 20 years ago. One person responded that it was a good question, but neither he nor anyone since been able to explain to me why NT would so neglect this part of God, if indeed the Trinity is what they say that it is?

I was just seeking to not misunderstand you. So you are ambivalent then.

YOu do have a revelation from god- It is called the Scriptures!

As to why the Holy Spirit is never included in greetings? I can give you my opinion based on 45 years of reading teh Scriptures.

The Holy Spirit is the person of the God head who leads believers to worship the Father and son. We pray to the Father through the son in the power of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine order of the triune God.

It is the triune God who decided how to work out this plan called creation. Not us. We can opine all we want but if God does not tell us- our musings are vain.

When Jesus said He would be with us always- it was through the Holy Spirit. Just as seeing Jesus is seeing the Father, so too is being filled with the Spirit being filled with Christ. They are express images of each other.

all the rest is just simply what the Godhead decided how to apportion their roles in eternity past. It is truth to be accepted even if not understood.

 

[kcnalp]

YOu do have a revelation from god- It is called the Scriptures!

2 Tim 3 All Scripture is God breathed ...

Amen Jesus!

 

[user]

Doesn't matter, it is still plural--elowah is the singular.

I give you Scripture and you give me "Opinion".


I PROVED through scripture, Elohim can and does refer to God in the singular. But you don't really believe this....

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is ONE LORD"

Isaiah 45:5-6 "I am the LORD (all caps), and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me; That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me, I am the LORD (all caps), and there is none else.
(The first person of YOUR trinity does not acknowledge the second or third person whatsoever.)

Isaiah 45:21 "...have not I the LORD (all caps)? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me."
(The first person of YOUR trinity still does not acknowledge the second or third person).


Good luck with your "Doesn't matter".

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I give you Scripture and you give me "Opinion".


I PROVED through scripture, Elohim can and does refer to God in the singular. But you don't really believe this....

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is ONE LORD"

Isaiah 45:5-6 "I am the LORD (all caps), and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me; That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me, I am the LORD (all caps), and there is none else.
(The first person of YOUR trinity does not acknowledge the second or third person whatsoever.)

Isaiah 45:21 "...have not I the LORD (all caps)? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me."
(The first person of YOUR trinity still does not acknowledge the second or third person).

Well you give a passage and then act all smug and think you have bested someone. YOu haven't!

Good luck with your "Doesn't matter".

Elohim is plural every time! If you wish I can track down the history of teh pagan gods and show why Elohim is used when only one false god is named! I can't anser for every single pagan god, but I do know that ones like Baal, though there was one head false god, represented a triad which was Satans counterfeit to the trinity.

Plural is always plural and singular is always singular! what we modern men lack is the knowlege of the times to know exactly why God inspired "elohim" instead of " elowah" in each of these circumstances. That takes some research work beyond the verse.

As for the Shema? The word one there is echad ( the word used for a compound one)

And if yahweh was just a singular God and Israel knew that why would He have to repeat it in such a strange way?

As for Is. 45?

In Is. 44: 6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

there are two yahweh's speaking here! So in 45 which Yahweh was speaking?

 

[amadeus]

If you did not insist on even mentioning a Trinity I would have almost liked what you said here! There are ATs [Absolute Truths] indeed, but only God knows exactly what they are. A lot of people insist that they do. I usually disagree.

I was just seeking to not misunderstand you. So you are ambivalent then.

YOu do have a revelation from god- It is called the Scriptures!

I see in the scriptures the basis that men use to favor a Trinity, but I also see the in the scripture the basis for Oneness alone and Duality. Here again is that word. I do not embrace any of them for the lack of a revelation. In this I am still seeing through darkened glass. I cannot see through your window. We must each look through his own, although I suspect many people don't really see God's nature any better than I do. They simply go with the flow of the people in their group... even if they themselves do not understand that.

The written Bible itself I see as written as men were inspired by God to write. I also believe that a correct understanding of what is written requires the same inspiration of God in the reader or hearer.

As to why the Holy Spirit is never included in greetings? I can give you my opinion based on 45 years of reading teh Scriptures.

The Holy Spirit is the person of the God head who leads believers to worship the Father and son. We pray to the Father through the son in the power of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine order of the triune God.

Actually I believe the written Bible contains God's order, but without the Holy Spirit no man can see or understand it. Even those who do see very much through a glass darkly... according to what I see. The reason the Holy Spirit is not greeted is part of my understanding, which I believe was Paul's when he wrote as he did.

Have you ever gone into an empty room bringing nothing with you and then simply allowing God? You gave me an opinion about greetings based on your preconceived notion or belief that God is a Trinity. Every morning for many years I go to God empty and let Him refill me with the same things, or new things or changed things. That in conjunction with my reading and study of scriptures allows growth and I have grown since 1976 when I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. One of the first things I had to learn was to unlearn ideas I had picked up in very secular experiences and beliefs especially my time in the US Army and in college. Then some of my Catholic ideas had to go and finally the problems encountered in the Oneness Jesus Only groups. Finally God called me also out of the places I was most recently which were neither Trinitarian or Oneness.

I am certainly closer to God than I have been in the past, but really not very close at all considering the possibilities of which God has made me aware.

It is the triune God who decided how to work out this plan called creation. Not us. We can opine all we want but if God does not tell us- our musings are vain.

When Jesus said He would be with us always- it was through the Holy Spirit. Just as seeing Jesus is seeing the Father, so too is being filled with the Spirit being filled with Christ. They are express images of each other.

all the rest is just simply what the Godhead decided how to apportion their roles in eternity past. It is truth to be accepted even if not understood.

If you had excluded the word, "triune" and your reference to "eternity past" what you said in this last quoted part it might have been close to what I have said at times. I won't try to explain further what I do believe as it would be just that, a belief. Do I have faith in God? That is my focal point and has been for many years. What is the difference between faith in God and a belief? That is part of my answer, but my answer changes as I grow. How do I grow? As I have said...! Some of it happens on this forum as well.

 

[user]

As for Is. 45?

In Is. 44: 6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

there are two yahweh's speaking here! So in 45 which Yahweh was speaking?

Not two Yahweh's, but Jesus is the ALMIGHTY manifest in the flesh.

Compare the following references:

The Lord God is the Creator. Isaiah 42:5.
The Lord Jesus is the Creator. John 1:3-10.

The Lord God said, "I am He." Isaiah 43:10.
The Lord Jesus said, "I am He." John 8:24.

The Lord God is the only Saviour. Isaiah 43:10-11.
The Lord Jesus is the Saviour. Titus 1:4.

The Lord God shall reign forever. Psalms 146:10.
The Lord Jesus reign forever. Luke ‪1:33‬.

The Lord God is the King of Israel. Isaiah 43:15.
The Lord Jesus is the King of Israel. Matt 27:37.

The Lord God is the First and the Last. Isaiah 44:6.
The Lord Jesus is the First and the Last. Revelation 1:8.


Do you remember what Jesus said, while he taught in the temple? Jesus said...

Luke 20:41 And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son? [42] And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, [43] Till I make thine enemies thy footstool. [44] David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?


Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


Jesus is the First AND the Last.
He is the Alpha AND the Omega.