Should the Gospel of John be removed from the Bible?

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Clown

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Introduction: The Problem of the Fourth Gospel

While traditionally viewed as the work of John the Apostle, modern critical scholarship has raised serious questions about its authorship, dating, and theological motivations. My examination will try to analyze ten major areas of concern that collectively undermine the Gospel's claims to historical reliability and divine inspiration..

1. The Insurmountable Dating Problem


Conservative estimates place its composition between 90-110 CE, while more critical scholars often argue for an even later date.

This means that at least 60 to 80 years had passed between Jesus’ ministry (c. 27–30 CE) and the composition of the Gospel of John. Given that the average life expectancy in first-century Palestine was around 35 to 40 years, an author claiming to be an eyewitness would need to be over 70 years old at the time of writing—making such a scenario seem highly unlikely."

The advanced Christology present in John (e.g., the pre-existent Logos in 1:1) reflects theological developments that took decades to emerge. As noted by theologian James Dunn, this represents a clear evolution beyond the more primitive Christology found in Mark and other Gospels.

Gospel of John was first mentioned by the time of Irenaeus (c. 180 CE). The author of the Gospel of John claims to have known Jesus personally, referring to 'The Disciple whom Jesus loved' as a source. However, the Gospel’s late composition, advanced theological development, and signs of later editing suggest it couldn't have been written by an intimate eyewitness.

2. The "Beloved Disciple" Enigma

The mysterious figure described in Gospel of John: the "Disciple whom Jesus loved" presents numerous historical and literary problems:

Complete Absence in Synoptic Tradition: This privileged disciple, who reclines next to Jesus at the Last Supper (John 13:23) and receives special revelation, never appears in Matthew, Mark, or Luke. This absence is particularly striking given that:
  • The Synoptics name multiple disciples
  • They record Jesus' inner circle (Peter, James, John)
  • They do not mention any secret "teachings" or knowledge that was given to apostle John exclusively
Competition with Peter: The Gospel consistently elevates the Beloved Disciple above Peter in key moments:
  • At the empty tomb (20:2-8), the Beloved Disciple outruns Peter
  • At the crucifixion (19:26-27), Jesus entrusts his mother to this disciple
  • The appendix (chapter 21) seems to defend this disciple's authority against Petrine claims
Secret Teaching Claims: Passages like John 13:23-26 and 21:20-24 suggest this disciple received special revelation unavailable to others. This resembles later Gnostic claims of secret knowledge, raising questions about authenticity.

As scholar Raymond Brown concluded in his landmark study, this figure likely represents the idealized founder of the Johannine community rather than a historical individual.

3. Dionysian Worship and Hellenistic Influence
The symbolic structure of John's Gospel shows striking parallels with Dionysian religion that go beyond superficial similarities:

• *The Cana Miracle (2:1-11)*: This first "sign" transforms water into wine, which:
  • Mirrors Dionysus's central miracle
  • Occurs at a wedding feast (Dionysus was patron of weddings)
  • Produces an excessive amount (about 120 gallons) of superior wine
Vine Imagery: The extended "I am the true vine" discourse (15:1-17) appropriates Dionysian symbolism while asserting Christian superiority. In Greek religion, the vine represented:
  • Divine ecstasy
  • Spiritual intoxication
  • Union with the god
Blood/Wine Symbolism: John 6:53-56's shocking language about drinking blood (absolutely forbidden in Judaism, Leviticus 17:10-14) makes more sense in a Hellenistic context where wine represented the god's blood in mystery religions.

Gospel of John tries to present Jesus as better than Dionysus throughout the Gospel.
Many modern scholars, such as Robert M. Price note that these parallels are too extensive to be coincidental, suggesting conscious adaptation of pagan motifs for Christian evangelism.

4. Christological Differences across Gospels
John's portrait of Jesus differs radically from Synoptic tradition in key areas:

Dualism: John's light/darkness framework (1:5, 3:19-21, 8:12, etc.) reflects:
  • Jewish Apocalypticism
  • Qumran community theology
  • Zoroastrian influence
This represents a significant development beyond Hebrew Bible thought.

Eschatology: While the Synoptics emphasize future judgment, John promotes "realized eschatology" where:
  • Eternal life is a present possession (5:24)
  • Judgment is already occurring (3:18-19)
  • Resurrection is spiritualized (11:25-26)

5. Chronological and Topographical Problems

John's narrative contains numerous inconsistencies with Synoptic accounts:
Ministry Duration: John's three-year framework (implied by multiple Passovers) contradicts the Synoptic single-year ministry.

Temple Incident: Placing the Temple cleansing at the beginning of Jesus' ministry (2:13-22) rather than the end creates logical problems:
  • Why no mention in Synoptics of an early incident?
  • How could Jesus continue teaching there if he caused such disruption early on?

Geographical Issues: John's Jesus:
  • Makes multiple trips to Jerusalem unlike the Synoptics' single journey
  • Conducts a Judean ministry before Galilean work (contrary to Synoptic sequence)
  • Places the calling of disciples after the Baptist's imprisonment (1:35-42), unlike Mark 1:14-20

6. Conflicts with Old Testament
Several Johannine doctrines directly oppose Torah teaching:
Incarnation: The claim that "the Word became flesh" (1:14) violates:
  • Deuteronomy's strict monotheism (6:4)
  • Prophetic warnings against divine embodiment (Isaiah 42:8)
  • "God cannot dwell inside us in flesh'' - Exodus 25–40; Leviticus 16
Replacement Theology: John systematically replaces Jewish institutions:
  • Temple replaced by Jesus' body (2:21)
  • Jesus as the new Moses (John 6:32–35)
Predestination Language: Passages like John 6:44 ("No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father") seemingly contradict Deuteronomy's emphasis on free will (30:19).

7. Controversial and Troubling Passages
Several Johannine texts have proven historically problematic:

Anti-Jewish Polemic: John 8:44's "your father is the devil" charge has fueled centuries of antisemitism.

Exclusivism: John 14:6's claim that Jesus is the only way to God represents:
  • A departure from Jewish universalism
  • A late theological development
  • A potential political statement against competing Christian groups
Sacramentalism: The extreme realism of John 6:53-56 ("eat my flesh... drink my blood"):

8. The Johannine Community Context
The Gospel's distinctive features likely reflect its community's historical situation:

Synagogue Expulsion: References to being "put out of the synagogue" (9:22, 12:42, 16:2) match what we know of the Birkat haMinim (c. 85 CE), a curse against heretics added to synagogue prayers.

Sectarian Mentality: The community's:
  • Dualistic worldview
  • Claim to special revelation
  • Resembles sectarian groups like the Qumran community.

9. The Prologue is inspired by Philo of Alexandria
John 1:1-18's Logos theology shows clear dependence on Greek thought:
Philo of Alexandria: The Jewish philosopher's concept of the Logos as:
  • Divine intermediary
  • Cosmic principle
  • God's rational expression
= Provides exact parallels to John's prologue.

The prologue is clearly dependent Stoic Influences; therefore, it is not original to author himself and definitely not the word of God.
The Stoic Logos as:
  • Universal reason
  • Ordering principle
  • Divine spark in humanity

Conclusion:
The cumulative weight of evidence suggests the Fourth Gospel is:
  • A late theological composition (and its further development)
  • Shaped by community conflicts and cultural adaptation
  • Highly Influenced by Hellenistic religion
  • At considerable remove from historical events

It cannot be considered either:
  • An eyewitness account
  • Divinely inspired in any unique sense
  • Theologically aligned with other Gospels or Old Testament
  • Written by actual apostle of John
 
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grafted branch

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Conservative estimates place its composition between 90-110 CE, while more critical scholars often argue for an even later date.
John 5:2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.

The pool of Bethesda was destroyed in 70AD, which places its composition prior to 70AD not 90-110AD.
 
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Marty fox

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Johns whole gospel was about proving that Jesus was sent by the Father and Jesus revealing the Fathers heart to us that all we need to know to see the truth.
 
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Deborah_

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This means that at least 60 to 80 years had passed between Jesus’ ministry (c. 27–30 CE) and the composition of the Gospel of John. Given that the average life expectancy in first-century Palestine was around 35 to 40 years, an author claiming to be an eyewitness would need to be over 70 years old at the time of writing—making such a scenario seem highly unlikely."
Average life expectancy is misunderstood by many people. They skim over the word "average" and fixate on the figures.

35-40 years was the average! People died younger, and also much older, than that.

Now the reason it's much lower than today was the high mortality in infancy. Up to 50% of children died before the age of 5 years. But if you survived to the age of 5, you would probably survive to adulthood. And if you made it to your twenties, then unless you died from violence or accident (or childbirth, in the case of women), you had a pretty good chance of reaching 60 or 70!

So there were plenty of elderly people around. Not as high a proportion as today, of course, but enough to make a 70-year old eyewitness nothing unusual.
 
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Rockerduck

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The Apostle John was not an ordinary person. Human reasoning does not apply. I have no doubt the Apostle John could write a Gospel at 80-90 yrs. old. I had a man over at my house that was 88 yrs old. lucid and driving a car. I have a lady friend 86 yrs old, who just drove up to New York to see her sister, she lives in Biloxi, Miss. I can see an Apostle, anointed by God, can live to 120 yrs old. Like Moses.
 

Traveler

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I look at many of the questions being brought up as of late and I get the impression that we are being trolled.
 
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John's narrative contains numerous inconsistencies with Synoptic accounts:
Ministry Duration: John's three-year framework (implied by multiple Passovers) contradicts the Synoptic single-year ministry.
Luk 13:6
He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
Luk 13:7
Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
Luk 13:8
And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
Luk 13:9
And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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6. Conflicts with Old Testament
Several Johannine doctrines directly oppose Torah teaching:
Incarnation: The claim that "the Word became flesh" (1:14) violates:
  • Deuteronomy's strict monotheism (6:4)
  • Prophetic warnings against divine embodiment (Isaiah 42:8)
  • "God cannot dwell inside us in flesh'' - Exodus 25–40; Leviticus 16
Do you also question the validity of these passages...

Philippians 2:5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

7. Controversial and Troubling Passages
Several Johannine texts have proven historically problematic:

Anti-Jewish Polemic: John 8:44's "your father is the devil" charge has fueled centuries of antisemitism.
Have you never read Matthew 23 where Jesus railed against unbelieving Jews like the scribes and Pharisees while calling them "hypocrites", "blind guides", "snakes" and "a brood of vipers" and asked them "How will you escape being condemned to hell?" Do you think Matthew 23 should be removed from the Bible?

Exclusivism: John 14:6's claim that Jesus is the only way to God represents:
  • A departure from Jewish universalism
  • A late theological development
  • A potential political statement against competing Christian groups
Acts 4:11 Jesus is “‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’ 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

Do you think that Acts 4:11-12 should be removed from the Bible, also?

The book of John is legitimate scripture and nothing you're saying proves otherwise. You are just looking for an excuse to not believe the things taught in it, Clown.
 

Big Boy Johnson

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The Apostle John was not an ordinary person. Human reasoning does not apply. I have no doubt the Apostle John could write a Gospel at 80-90 yrs. old. I had a man over at my house that was 88 yrs old. lucid and driving a car. I have a lady friend 86 yrs old, who just drove up to New York to see her sister, she lives in Biloxi, Miss. I can see an Apostle, anointed by God, can live to 120 yrs old. Like Moses.

Yep, some folks live a really really long like and the Apostle John was the one they could not kill and he lived a LONG time.





I look at many of the questions being brought up as of late and I get the impression that we are being trolled.

Yes of course - those not seeing things your way are obviously trolls right?

Like, how dare they not agree with your point of view. That's very rude! :funlaugh2
 

Gottservant

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The words of Jesus - recorded in John - are reflected in the stars (the stars are literally arranged by the Holy Spirit). How do you falsify stars?

My concern is that you then say "let's remove Revelation", for which the curse is severe.
 

Big Boy Johnson

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John 5:2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.

John was being led by the Holy Spirit concerning things that happened during Jesus' ministry which was all before 70 AD



Complete and utter nonsense.

Which post?
 

Wick Stick

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Introduction: The Problem of the Fourth Gospel

While traditionally viewed as the work of John the Apostle, modern critical scholarship has raised serious questions about its authorship, dating, and theological motivations. My examination will try to analyze ten major areas of concern that collectively undermine the Gospel's claims to historical reliability and divine inspiration..

1. The Insurmountable Dating Problem
...
It cannot be considered either:
  • An eyewitness account
  • Divinely inspired in any unique sense
  • Theologically aligned with other Gospels or Old Testament
  • Written by actual apostle of John
A lot of what you say is true. I could pick at points, but there's an overarching concern that dwarfs individual concerns.

The scholars you're following are analyzing the gospel as if it were the original work of a single author who was not amended by copyists for hundreds of years afterwards. But it isn't the work of a single author, and it clearly includes a significant amount of redaction.

It's a compilation - it combines several of Jesus' teachings with some historical records and rather a lot of the text seems to address gnostic concerns.

It CAN be considered an eyewitness account... perhaps not the whole book but parts of it.

It generally HAS BEEN considered inspired even in the early bits of Christian tradition when such status was not freely applied to all the books of the Bible.

It IS theologically aligned with both the other gospels and OT (and Paul) in its claim that heredity and adoption are determined by behavior - one of the more important theological points of Jesus' doctrine.
 
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Brakelite

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“1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. ”
1 John 1:1-3 KJV


As a witness for Christ, John entered into no controversy, no wearisome contention. He declared what he knew, what he had seen and heard. He had been intimately associated with Christ, had listened to His teachings, had witnessed His mighty miracles. Few could see the beauties of Christ's character as John saw them. For him the darkness had passed away; on him the true light was shining. His testimony in regard to the Saviour's life and death was clear and forcible. Out of the abundance of a heart overflowing with love for the Saviour he spoke; and no power could stay his words.
 

Lambano

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Y'know, I don't have a problem with the Gospel of John not being written by John himself; the text never claims that he did. The fact that the "beloved disciple" is referred to in the third person and the strange post-script in chapter 21 argue for a (Holy?) ghost writer who used the unnamed beloved disciple's recollections as the source material for the long discourses and accurate knowledge of pre-70 AD Jerusalem (e.g. the pool of Bethesda near the Sheep gate) used in the Gospel. That the original source was probably dead at the time of composition (John 21:23) makes the 90 AD composition date much less problematic.
 
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Brakelite

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But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, critical thinkers, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority—not one nor all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord" in its support.
 
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