Signs

[aspen]

all signs point to the second coming - they have been pointing in this direction for 2,000 + and will continue to do so until it happens. Jesus told us to look for signs as confirmation that we are in the end times - not so that we could make perdictions.

 

[Just here]

OK...so you have seen more than Paul? You are closer to God than Paul who stated we can only see as though through a dark glass?

It is concerning when Christians refuse to believe what the Bible actually states and want to believe and worse, cause others to believe, that what they write
holds more weight than the Bible

Our walk with God does include feelings, but feelings is not our walk with God. I can assure you that I have had goosebumps with the best of them.

We do not have a relationship with God as did His first creation prior to the fall. You cannot demonstrate that we do...you may think so, but it is not what
the Bible states.

We are not sinless....we experience redemption through the blood of Christ but neither you nor anyone else can possibly imagine what it is like to be in a sinless world.

You do experience forgiveness for your sins which enables you to come before God...that does not equate to never having sinned. I guess you just missed the entire point
because you wanted to make a point about one thing while disregarding everything else.

Being forgiven, does not mean you have never sinned. It means that God does not hold your sins against you any longer. Creation with the first human beings prior
to the fall, meant no sin whatsoever. That must be hard to grasp I guess.

Are you alone coming before God? Aren't all those who belong to Him able to come before Him? Your experience is only what God allows...you are not unique so your sad story
rendition only amounts to your own particular brand of sarcastic putdown.

One more time....the original creation had NO sin. You cannot make that claim. Forgiveness of your sin is what we experience. We cannot live in that state in the here an now.

The entire creation is groaning...that is what the Bible tells us. It is nonsense to assume we are in some perfected state...the teaching of the NT totally contradicts that notion

So tiresome

We are as close to God as we choose to be.

Jesus paved the way, opened the door, so we could enter into the Holy of Holies.

Why compare my experiences with those of Paul's? God wants us to experience Him outside of what Paul or others experienced.

Did I make the claim I did not sin? No! You are reading way too much into things.

You seem very angry over the fact we can have a relationship with the Father and enter into His Holy of Holies. It should bring a great peace and amazing joy to all of us. I am grateful for His gift.

 

[Niki]

We are as close to God as we choose to be.

Jesus paved the way, opened the door, so we could enter into the Holy of Holies.

Why compare my experiences with those of Paul's? God wants us to experience Him outside of what Paul or others experienced.

Did I make the claim I did not sin? No! You are reading way too much into things.

You seem very angry over the fact we can have a relationship with the Father and enter into His Holy of Holies. It should bring a great peace and amazing joy to all of us. I am grateful for His gift.

The op is not about being close to God. It is about personal revelation. Is that what you are trying to discuss? That is what I was responding to.

However, you did not touch on anything I wrote. Instead, you wrote about how glorious it is to be in God's presence. You simply introduced a topic
that is not at all concerned with my post, and dis-involved yourself with the topic.

Now why you did that, is really only known by yourself and God. I can make guesses and maybe even guess right. That is all we can do about knowing
what it is to never have sinned at all.

I don't know why, but you have basically taken this off topic.

The op would like to walk in personal revelation. My post was concerned with the fact that the Bible ALWAYS comes before personal revelation.

What you wrote, does not cover either of those two points.

Why compare my experiences with those of Paul's? God wants us to experience Him outside of what Paul or others experienced.

Paul was not writing about an experience when he stated that we do not and cannot conceive of a world without sin.

People who prefer to go by personal experience, usually want to argue that those who put scripture first, put God in a box or some such thing.


When someone does that, they are basically stating that their own word is above God's word.

 

[Just here]

The op is not about being close to God. It is about personal revelation. Is that what you are trying to discuss? That is what I was responding to.

However, you did not touch on anything I wrote. Instead, you wrote about how glorious it is to be in God's presence. You simply introduced a topic
that is not at all concerned with my post, and dis-involved yourself with the topic.

Now why you did that, is really only known by yourself and God. I can make guesses and maybe even guess right. That is all we can do about knowing
what it is to never have sinned at all.

I don't know why, but you have basically taken this off topic.

The op would like to walk in personal revelation. My post was concerned with the fact that the Bible ALWAYS comes before personal revelation.

What you wrote, does not cover either of those two points.

Your post accused me of being sinless and never having sin or some tirade such as this - let the reader go back and read your post. I personally never said one word about sin until you brought it up. Your first post said we could never experience a relationship with God like it was before the fall. I was disputing both. They are not true.

I am very aware of what the OP has put forth and I completely agree that God gives us revelation. Justin also speaks of total communion with the Father, which I also agree with. It's a great, right on the mark, spot on OP!!

God is as much with us today as He ever has been in the history of the world! There are signs and wonders following believers and as Justin has stated in his OP, we should welcome these signs from the Father, He is with us!

It brings me great peace and joy to know these things and to experience them within my own life! Praise God for His wisdom and His ways!

Paul was not writing about an experience when he stated that we do not and cannot conceive of a world without sin.

People who prefer to go by personal experience, usually want to argue that those who put scripture first, put God in a box or some such thing.


When someone does that, they are basically stating that their own word is above God's word.

I'm not sure why you insist on bringing into this topic sinlessness?

When we only look at Paul's experiences and ignore everyone else's, that is putting God into a box.

We should not limit God to a book - He is everywhere! God does not live inside the Bible!

 

[Niki]

You seem very angry over the fact we can have a relationship with the Father and enter into His Holy of Holies. It should bring a great peace and amazing joy to all of us. I am grateful for His gift.

This is just another typical tactic of those who cannot stand to have real questions put before them. You don't like what I say, so, in your economy I must be angry

I consider that a cheap shot. You can write holy all day long, but that does not make you better than me or any other Christian. Experiences do not make us holy.

Only the blood of Christ makes us holy. If God allows us to have an experience, it is not so that it can supersede the word.

I doubt you have amazing peace and joy 24 hours a day. Every single person in the Bible including Jesus, experienced otherwise.


Guess what? I believe you when you say you don't understand what I wrote. Yes, I really do.

So far, you have told me I am angry, that I limit God, that I am thankless, that I don't believe I can come before my heavenly Father, that you have this
great walk with God that is better than the Bible and that you go to many other sources beside the Bible for truth.

You sure seem to think you know an awful lot about other people LOL!

 

[Just here]

This is just another typical tactic of those who cannot stand to have real questions put before them. You don't like what I say, so, in your economy I must be angry

I consider that a cheap shot. You can write holy all day long, but that does not make you better than me or any other Christian. Experiences do not make us holy.

Only the blood of Christ makes us holy. If God allows us to have an experience, it is not so that it can supersede the word.

I doubt you have amazing peace and joy 24 hours a day. Every single person in the Bible including Jesus, experienced otherwise.

Who said I made myself holy?

You are really truly reading way too much into my posts. You need to go back and re-read what I wrote.

Are you angry for your lack of experiences with God?

Are you jealous other people have experiences?

I am not trying to make anyone feel bad, I am laying it out there that people DO have experiences with God!

Pray and ask God for your own experiences if this is what your problem is.

Who said anything about anyone superseding the word of God.

Just wow.......

 

[Wormwood]

Dear R,

I wish I could speak something to you that could open your eyes to the things of the Spirit. I think you really have a desire to serve God but for some reason are having a difficult time getting close to Him. Much of the things you say would not be nessesary if you understood Him better through experiencing Him. I am not trying to down you at all but rather I am trying to encourage you to lay down the "word" for a bit and just concentrate of His Spirit. The closer you move towards our Father in the Spirit the clearer things start to become.

Blessings,

Justin

Justin, I know you know that Scripture tells us plainly that "man does not live on bread alone, but every word that comes from the mouth of God." So the idea that you would encourage someone to "lay down the 'word' for a bit and just concentrate of his Spirit" is very troublesome. To place a wedge between Word and Spirit is very unbiblical and leads to emotionalism and all sorts of heresy. Now obviously someone can have the word and not the Spirit, but you dont set aside the word to be a person of the Spirit. Quite the opposite. I worry you are overly fixated on experiences and are overly proud of your personal perceptions and convictions...attributing it all to "the Spirit." I dont think the Spirit would ever encourage someone to set down the Word.

 

[Niki]

Who said I made myself holy?

You are really truly reading way too much into my posts. You need to go back and re-read what I wrote.

Are you angry for your lack of experiences with God?

Are you jealous other people have experiences?

I am not trying to make anyone feel bad, I am laying it out there that people DO have experiences with God!

Pray and ask God for your own experiences if this is what your problem is.

Who said anything about anyone superseding the word of God.

Just wow.......

I wonder what causes such blindness. We should not brag about anything but what Christ has done for us. I never wrote about experience. That, is what you wrote about
and perhaps that is all you have.

Again, and try and pay attention, that is not what this thread is even about. You may want to discuss your experiences and you may be busting at the seams to let us know
how great they were, but I don't care.

This thread is about whether or not we should put personal revelation on equal footing with the the word of God.

I say no we should not.

It has nothing to do with you personally so be a good chap and move on. We are not discussing you.

 

[Just here]

Justin, I know you know that Scripture tells us plainly that "man does not live on bread alone, but every word that comes from the mouth of God." So the idea that you would encourage someone to "lay down the 'word' for a bit and just concentrate of his Spirit" is very troublesome. To place a wedge between Word and Spirit is very unbiblical and leads to emotionalism and all sorts of heresy. Now obviously someone can have the word and not the Spirit, but you dont set aside the word to be a person of the Spirit. Quite the opposite. I worry you are overly fixated on experiences and are overly proud of your personal perceptions and convictions...attributing it all to "the Spirit." I dont think the Spirit would ever encourage someone to set down the Word.

Consider the scripture that states people read the scriptures because they believe they will find eternal life in them.

The Bible and the Spirit work together, the Bible points to Christ, it is like a compass, and then we follow Him. As we go on the journey God has set before us, when God does things or if things happen we don't always have to run back to the Bible to ensure what happened was from God! We learn to hear His voice, His Ways and His direction.

I wonder what causes such blindness. We should not brag about anything but what Christ has done for us. I never wrote about experience. That, is what you wrote about
and perhaps that is all you have.

Again, and try and pay attention, that is not what this thread is even about. You may want to discuss your experiences and you may be busting at the seams to let us know
how great they were, but I don't care.

This thread is about whether or not we should put personal revelation on equal footing with the the word of God.

I say no we should not.

It has nothing to do with you personally so be a good chap and move on. We are not discussing you.

The problem here Niki is that you made it about ME with your accusing tirade!

The reader can go back and read what I wrote and notice it was not about "me" in the first place, but it was about how we can be as close to God and experience Him for ourselves!

Like I said in my last post, the Bible is a compass that points us to the Spirit, He then takes us on an adventure filled with experiences!

This has nothing to do with YOU and your angry outburst and your hurt ego - this is all about the walk with Christ and experiencing His power unto eternal life.

Stop with the accusation and the finger pointing. Pray and ask God to give you experiences - outside of the Bible - and then maybe you'll know what it is Justin is talking about.

 

[Niki]

Personal revelation is outside of scripture. It is not objective. It is subjective.

One human being cannot lead others with their own experience. That, is how cults begin.

Leading through personal revelation is nothing but a black hole.

I understand it is the life's blood of many, and it is also their downfall. Done here.


The funny thing is, the actual originator of this thread appears to be far more balanced than the current argument I am getting. I realize
this is a pubic forum and anyone can reply to a post, but I would much rather discuss with a person who disagrees with me then someone
who falsely accuses and twists my words. Every forum has them. You just cannot discuss without being accused of saying things you never said.

Do carry on.

 

[Just here]

Personal revelation is outside of scripture. It is not objective. It is subjective.

One human being cannot lead others with their own experience. That, is how cults begin.

Leading through personal revelation is nothing but a black hole.

I understand it is the life's blood of many, and it is also their downfall. Done here.


The funny thing is, the actual originator of this thread appears to be far more balanced than the current argument I am getting. I realize
this is a pubic forum and anyone can reply to a post, but I would much rather discuss with a person who disagrees with me then someone
who falsely accuses and twists my words. Every forum has them. You just cannot discuss without being accused of saying things you never said.

Do carry on.

I do hope you step out because this OP brings to light part of a believer's walk! Justin does have a very good grasp on this and he speaks with great wisdom! I am very new to this forum but the person I have learned the most from is Justin - thank you for this thread!

 

[Niki]

Oh and now I'm having a tirade. Against you. You just cannot see that you have totally made this into a thread about yourself?
I believe what Wormwood wrote a few posts back applies to you. Why don't you argue with him also?

 

[Just here]

Oh and now I'm having a tirade. Against you. You just cannot see that you have totally made this into a thread about yourself?

I believe what Wormwood wrote a few posts back applies to you. Why don't you argue with him also?

I responded to his post - but he is pleasant so my response was pleasant back.

The way wormwood presented his concern was respectful and he did not go on and on about how he was the victim in his own head.

 

[Niki]

Here it is:

Justin, I know you know that Scripture tells us plainly that "man does not live on bread alone, but every word that comes from the mouth of God." So the idea that you would encourage someone to "lay down the 'word' for a bit and just concentrate of his Spirit" is very troublesome. To place a wedge between Word and Spirit is very unbiblical and leads to emotionalism and all sorts of heresy. Now obviously someone can have the word and not the Spirit, but you dont set aside the word to be a person of the Spirit. Quite the opposite. I worry you are overly fixated on experiences and are overly proud of your personal perceptions and convictions...attributing it all to "the Spirit." I dont think the Spirit would ever encourage someone to set down the Word.

I worry that some are over fixated on experience and despise being told that the WORD is what we judge the experience by and that is never going to change.

God created all things by the WORD. We are set free by the truth...not the experience.

Jesus is the Living Word...not the living experience. We cannot share the truth if the truth is somone's personal experience.

You obviously do not like what I wrote. Your argument is not against me. Perhaps God is trying to get you to evaluate things in the light of His word.

You have not addressed what I wrote...and again, I responded to the op. I have not said or intimated what you are stating. I can only think that for
some reason, you appear to think that if I do not say something, I must not believe it. That is a faulty assumption and perhaps the fuel for your
ongoing inability to see what I have actually said rather than the nonsense you ascribe to me.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear J,

Well said and your are right.

Dear W,

I do not wish to separate people from the world at all. I just want the Spirit to interpret the word instead of their doctrine. What people seem to think is the word is many times their dogma all wrapped up in the word.

Dear N,

Yes, we can rise to the fulness and Stature of Christ...we are supposed to. He was the second Adam and walked perfectly before His Father. This can only be accomplished through the Spirit.

Really guys, you have got to start trying to see what I am saying here. It is not that difficult. It is ok to let the Holy Spirit lead and guide you into all truth....even if it goes against your present beliefs. The church is stuck in a rut and more study is not going to get it out. Likewise, I can appeal to you intellect through scripture but that will make no difference to you if you are not open to hear the Holy Spirit.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Niki]

Well I'm glad you showed up.

I do believe we are to be led by the Holy Spirit...but he is also our Teacher...and does not teach outside of what is truth.

The problem I have with personal revelation is that it is subjective at best and seductive at worst. Those are the things I was hoping to
discuss.

AS far as study goes, I don't believe most Christians do study. Doctrine and the truth delivered once and for all seems to be a dirty word.
Rather, they go by experience and that takes the place of study. I do study and and what I find, is that the only true source of truth is the Bible...the WRITTEN word.

Personally, I think we have all had way too many goosebumps and would do well to settle down and allow the word of God to work in us instead
of the way we feel.

I have just been accused of several things by Mr. Just Here that have no basis in truth...one of them being that I am perhaps jealous of his or hers
experiences. Do you realize that exactly makes the point for me? One, I do not know what experiences this person has had and two, I just don't
care at all.

I have never seen someone go astray by following the Bible but I have seen MANY go astray by following experiences.

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. II Tim 2:15

The OT speaks of a famine for the word of God...that is well on the way apparently.

As far as the church being stuck in a rut goes, there are many churches and many ruts. I would suggest that they are there because they do not
OBEY the word they already have and their tickled ears want something new.

I believe in all things that God has given to us to believe. I believe in the indwelling and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I will not ever surrender leadership
to an experience in the place of that word however.

Saying that a person needs to be open to hear the Holy Spirit is ludicrous IMO.

Anyone who is saved, who studies the Word, who is righteous before God and who can come into His presence and know that they are
heard simply because of what the Bible states has already heard the Holy Spirit.

Those who follow signs and wonders and indeed deliberately seek them out, have failed to heed the warnings of the Holy Spirit.

The signs and wonders crowd have crossed over in apostasy and don't even know it. There are true workings of the Holy Spirit in our lives
but never at the expense of the written word.

There are many many churches that practice all sorts of things...if that is what someone wants, well, there are thousands, nay millions, more who will
be happy to join them.

Why is it that when someone says do not place your experience before the Bible, some people get their panties all in a knot? The Bible itself states that very thing!

Saying so, does NOT mean that a person does not believe one can have an experience..what it means in my case, is judge your experience in the light of God's word

 

[Wormwood]

I do not wish to separate people from the world at all. I just want the Spirit to interpret the word instead of their doctrine. What people seem to think is the word is many times their dogma all wrapped up in the word.

Justin, I think I understand your point, but I still think both your terminology and your direction are concerning. First, "doctrine" is not a bad thing. It's simply a set of beliefs taught by the church. Paul told Timothy to "watch his life and doctrine closely. If you do you will save both yourself and your hearers." Thus, we see doctrine is very important and its important that it matches with the Word. Obviously you dont have a problem with the word which I appreciate. I also agree that some people think their own perspective is the word and they cant separate their ideas from God's absolute truth. However, I think the same danger applies with you and any fixation on experiences. Often people confuse their experiences with divine truth and filter everything, even the Bible, through their own perceptions, experiences and imagination. So I appreciate your caution, but I think it applies to both sides (those who focus on experience and those who focus on doctrine). Neither is inherently bad, but both can be very problematic when they lack humilty and love. When people start questioning others relationship with God based on lack of experience or lack of determination to take by "faith" that their gut instinct is the Spirit....I think its a dangerous place to be. We all need the humility to consider the views of other gracefully and disagree respectfully unless clear false doctrine is being taught.

Also Justin, I think (at least for my sake) you need to explain things like "hear from the Holy Spirit." What exactly do you mean by that? How does one (in your opinion) become "open" to hear the Holy Spirit? Where do we find such a concept in the Bible? It seems that those who heard and obeyed the message of Jesus were hearing the Holy Spirit and responding. I simply do not find any Scriptural precedent for people just opening themselves to hear the Holy Spirit. However, I do see a lot of teaching in the NT where Paul and others say that if they do not listen to the words they are writing, then they are not listening to the Holy Spirit. Thus, John and Paul and others do not seem to distinquish the NT teaching from "hearing" the Holy Spirit. This subjective inner voice seems very foreign to the NT.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I'm watching this thread with interest, and may at some point relate my own personal experiences. For the time being though, I want to make two comments.

Signs are not the proof one is a disciple; the fruits of the spirit are. However, the bible does say signs will follow those who believe.

The apostle Phillip was told by the spirit to go into the desert, where something miraculous occurred. I doubt that anyone can show me where in the bible Phillip read that he was to go into the desert.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear W,

I agree with what you have written in the first part of your post. Doctrine which is elastic enough to change as the Holy Spirit reveals more of Himself is ok in my book. It is dogma that I object too. Also, I object to the Holy Spirit being made to submit (in practice though not in reality) to our doctrine.

When I speak about hearing the voice of God (i.e. the Holy Spirit) it is a bit different than many people might assume. First of all, the Holy Spirit is God and when God speaks to us it is not an emotion but a person. It is direct communication with God like the apostles experienced. God spoke to Peter and said,

"And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."

Acts 10:15

and,

When God spoke to Philip,

"then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot."

Acts 8:29

So, this is not emotion or just a feeling I am talking about. Many times because people are emotional when God's Spirit interacts with them or they describe what happens to them as a "feeling" people think they are just making up stuff. To be sure there is a lot of fanaticism and people sometimes make up things but what I am talking about is the genuine article. Teaching, while profitable, leads to legalism and spiritual death if it is not done through the Spirit of God.

So, I do hear what you are saying and I think you may be starting to understand where I am coming from. I am a bible scholar and I do value the word and doctrine. However, I have come to realize that we have "over emphasized" doctrine and many times elevated far above where it should be, even over of the Spirit Himself.

Dear N,

I feel your zeal yet I know that you are not getting what I am saying clearly. The Spirit and the word agree. They agree because they Spirit wrote the word. In fact, the Spirit proceeds the scripture because the scripture came from the Spirit. (I am not talking about the Logos in case you are wondering.)

So, it is not that people seek after experience as much as they seek after God. They want to experience God and this, in my book, is a very good thing. Those who wish to make due with a intellectually Christianity do themselves a disservice. It is amazing to me that I can state clearly the way things are and those who read it simply cannot understand. Truly, we need spiritual eyes to see and spiritual ears to hear. I am not trying to down you are even think of myself higher than you...these things were given to me and I did not come up with them. I just don't know how to explain it to you so you can understand. May you could try praying and asking God to reveal what He is saying (if He is saying anything) in what I am writing.

I suppose I am currently wondering how I might explain myself better. To me these things make a lot of sense but it is very difficult to tell others about them so that they can understand. When someone who speaks in other tongues tries to relate the experience to someone who has only experienced salvation there is a gulf between them that is difficult to bridge. In the same way, when I speak to others about the tabernacle experience it is difficult to bridge the gap between those who have not had the benefit of this experience. I guess, it depends upon the openness of the person to the Spirit. Some, who have just experienced salvation, jump at the chance to be filled with His Spirit and speak in other tongues. I think it will be like this with the Tabernacle experience too. I tell you though, starting to become one with God and feeling His divine love flow through you knocks the socks off of anything else I have ever encountered in God.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[pompadour]

Niki.... my o my, where to start.
First. I said that, I read a story. I didn't quote the bible or list ch and v. The story is an analogy (analogy: similarity in some respects) You say GOD searches the earth for them that searching for HIM, and truly HE does. HE is also known to send angels to do thing and deliver messages. You may have read about them.

You said the story was sheer nonsense. You may have read That Jesus cleansed 10 lepers and sent them to see the Priests. the next day one of the lepers came back to thank Jesus. Jesus blessed him and sent him away. Jesus then turned to the Disciples and said were there not 10 lepers cleansed yesterday? where are the 9? SO,,, you say the analogy, (story) is nonsense?

I have felt the mighty rushing wind of the holy Spirit and the heard the voice of the HS, they are just as real as anything you could name. and I have gone through times that I had to live by faith.

I don't say this to boast. Just to testify. " God is no respecter of person, what HE has done for others HE will do for you"
How many times a day do you pray ? How much time do you spend reading the Bible ? Is it enough ?

I read a story, That God sends out ten Angels with baskets every day to collect all the requests form his children. when they return HE sends out one Angel to gather all the thank you notes. If you want to get GOD 'S attention send Him thank you notes you don't have much computation.

Pomp.

This post is about signs. I responded to Justin that I have had signs from the Holy Spirit and that I didn't say it to boast, but to testify.
You seem to have a great deal of animosity for signs. Like I said I'm not here to boast so I didn't go into detail about my experience, but neither am I ashamed of it. ( I went into greater detail in The new member posting, Pompadour, at the bottom of page three) If you would like to read that and come back, we can talk about it.

This I believe. GOD said that he wrote HIS laws in our hearts. I believe that manifests is self in what we call our conscience,(recognition of right or wrong in ones self.) that we small voice, we all hear telling us not to do this or that, and makes us feel bad about some of the things we do and didn't do and when we hurt other people. Sooo, I believe we all hear from GOD a lot, we just don't know it.

Pomp.