Signs

[Robertson]

Dearest Brother Justin,

I like your style! I too see the same thing happening in Christianity, mainly a lack of revelation and use of the Spirit of God. It seems to be that many have a "let's believe in this book" attitude instead of a belief and trust in the true and living God. They are intent on living off of stories of how God helped and taught others in the past, but do not wish to enjoy and have stories of their own now. Revelation seems to be a thing of the past and it is only because those without it have closed their eyes and their hearts.

As for signs, we know that signs (or miracles) follow them that believe. But, sign seeking can lead into a dangerous thought pattern where someone refuses to believe until they are given a sign. Levi up above made a very interesting comparison between sign seeking and works. The Bible teaches that faith and good works (keeping the commandments) are required to enter into heaven. You cant have one without the other and expect to be like Jesus. He had both of these attributes, therefore we must have both of these attributes. Faith seems to be pretty easy to understand, but there is a line here where people get scared when it comes to works. The idea that scares people is the thought that one should try to keep the commandments, to do good works, to be obedient - whatever you want to call it, it is the same. Because the scriptures warn against trying to do the works without any faith, people of faith often think that they shouldn't try to do the good works. Many churches have turned the words "earn" and "works" into bad words and try to turn the concept around by saying that anyone with faith will automatically do good works (as if they aren't trying to do them, it just happens - therefore no one can accuse them of doing them on purpose). But we know that when we learn of Christ, when we repent and get baptized and receive the Holy Ghost, we should actively go about doing good works. We should try to be the best we can be, we should try to be as Jesus commanded, "Be ye therefore perfect."

So how does this tie in with signs and sign seeking? We know that seeking for signs as a hard headed individual before you will give any room for belief or faith is bad. This is clearly evidenced by the Pharisees and Sadducees and the leaders of the Sanhedrin. As an adulterous generation, they just wanted signs before anything. They had no intention of ever having faith nor would they have converted just because of signs. They were too hardened and had too much of the spirit of the devil in them. Their lives were about control, power, and fame. Therefore, people like this get no sign and it is this form of sign seeking that is bad.

But, there is a form of sign seeking that is good. Again, sign seeking may have been turned into a bad word because of the dangers of seeking them just for your own glory or gratification. There are definitely pitfalls in that course of action. But, when one already has faith, when one has already committed to the gospel by repenting and taking the name of Jesus upon themselves, then seeking for signs that do good seems to be beneficial. These signs happen in the form of miracles - from those that are sick who call for the elders of the church to anoint them with oil and heal them, to revelation from the Holy Ghost, to actual visitation by heavenly messengers and beings. All these signs (miracles) happen to those that believe in order to bless them and benefit them and others. Those who have the faith actually cause these things to happen - through the power of God, of course. Did Peter and the Apostles heal and raise the dead because they were doubtful and needed signs for themselves? Nope, they had the faith and then were able to perform the signs and miracles. So my point is, in seeking these things to glorify God and bless the lives of others, we are justified. But do we go around flaunting this and performing for money, preaching for lucre? No, we follow revelation from the Holy Spirit on how and when to bless others and ourselves with such signs and miracles - the Holy Ghost will lead us through this.

Last of all, and sadly, some churches, and not a few, will teach that revelation is a thing of the past and will deny miracles can happen. But we know if there are no miracles then there is no faith or revelation, for without having personal revelation to know the will of God in your life, you will have no miracles or signs.

Love to all

Oh by the way Justin, I was reading today and happen to come across a verse that has to do with revelation from your last post and apparently appertains to this post as well.

But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:11-12

 

[Just here]

I don't think Justin is talking about going off the deep end, searching for signs above all else, it's more of an expectation. When God is involved nothing is as it seems. There WILL be signs and wonders involved and it is part of the beauty of knowing the Creator.

 

[pompadour]

Rob. Hello and welcome. I think you have a good grasp of what being a christian is all about. but be prepared to be attacked for your faith. There are roaring lions here to.

Pomp.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Faith seems to be pretty easy to understand, but there is a line here where people get scared when it comes to works. The idea that scares people is the thought that one should try to keep the commandments, to do good works, to be obedient - whatever you want to call it, it is the same. Because the scriptures warn against trying to do the works without any faith, people of faith often think that they shouldn't try to do the good works. Many churches have turned the words "earn" and "works" into bad words and try to turn the concept around by saying that anyone with faith will automatically do good works (as if they aren't trying to do them, it just happens - therefore no one can accuse them of doing them on purpose). But we know that when we learn of Christ, when we repent and get baptized and receive the Holy Ghost, we should actively go about doing good works. We should try to be the best we can be, we should try to be as Jesus commanded, "Be ye therefore perfect."

Works is showing mercy and keeping one's self undefiled from the world. There's a fine line between doing works from a loving and merciful heart and doing them to satisfy one's self.

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world. James 1:27

 

[Wormwood]

I'm watching this thread with interest, and may at some point relate my own personal experiences. For the time being though, I want to make two comments.

Signs are not the proof one is a disciple; the fruits of the spirit are. However, the bible does say signs will follow those who believe.

The apostle Phillip was told by the spirit to go into the desert, where something miraculous occurred. I doubt that anyone can show me where in the bible Phillip read that he was to go into the desert.

CRFTD,

I agree that signs are not proof of a disciple. I do think that verse is in question that says that, but I wont get into that now.

I do think we need to use extreme caution when pointing to Acts as normative for everyday Christian experience. God did amazing things in Exodus, but these were not expected to be normative events for Israel throughout their history. First, the first Christians did not have a NT in their lifetime..and maybe had a letter or two from Paul...so we would expect that the Spirit would move more through personal revelation, prophecy and so forth. Second, Acts and other places in Scripture indicate that the miraculous works and personal revelations were almost entirely limited to the Apostles save a few noted situations. Certainly there were some "prophets" among the people, but Paul and other seem to indicate that God's revelation is focused primarily through particular people. Here are some verses to consider:

Acts 4:33
Acts 5:12
1 Cor. 4:6
1 Cor. 14:37-38
Heb. 13:7
1 John 1:2-3
1 John 4:6
2 Peter 2:1


In fact, what I find very striking in all of the NT epistles is the lack of discussion about personal revelations, gifts, signs or miracle working within the church. Paul seems to focus the emphasis on miracles and revelations with his own ministry and says very little to people in the churches about these kinds of Spirit manifestations. This is not to say that some people did prophecy or work miracles who were not Apostles in the NT church, but very little is mentioned about it which seems curious if this is normal and a key means of knowing God personally. Rather, it seems the directives and commands of the NT are to have Christians follow in the Apostles teachings rather develop a way to receive their own words or visions as the basis of their faith and relationship with Christ. Also, it seems interesting to me that the 2 Peter text does not suggest that just as prophets in the past were deceitful, so there would be deceitful prophets today. Rather, he switches from prophets to teachers. Thus, it seems to me that the point of "prophecy" in the NT was to reveal the person and work of Jesus and once that was accomplished, the focus turned to teaching that same message. In my mind, if signs, personal revelations and voices from God are normative for the average Christian life, you would think there would be some teaching on this in the NT epistles. Rather, it seems like all the teaching is about holding to what they have heard and calls to live holy lives and what that looks like. To me this indicates that it is more about trusting in the faith passed down once for all to the saints than learning how to hear God's personal revelations to you clearly.

Rob. Hello and welcome. I think you have a good grasp of what being a christian is all about. but be prepared to be attacked for your faith. There are roaring lions here to.

Pomp.

These kinds of comments are very sad. Here we can have Christians who all believe in the saving power of Jesus, and yet if someone questions the validity of some personal revelations or the importance or frequency of "signs" in the average Christian life...they become roaring lions who attack the faith. This is so foreign to the Scriptures and a sad commentary on how divisive these issues of personal experiences can be. Being a Christian is "all about" Jesus. It really is that simple. Lets not make the other stuff divisive.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

First, the first Christians did not have a NT in their lifetime..and maybe had a letter or two from Paul...so we would expect that the Spirit would move more through personal revelation, prophecy and so forth.

This is just an excuse that could be applied to any age.

Second, Acts and other places in Scripture indicate that the miraculous works and personal revelations were almost entirely limited to the Apostles save a few noted situations. Certainly there were some "prophets" among the people, but Paul and other seem to indicate that God's revelation is focused primarily through particular people.

Therefore does the one who gives you the Spirit and who works miracles among you [do so] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Galatians 3:5

I do realize that the word translated miracles is dunamis, but there it is for us to discern. As far as manifestations of the spirit being limited to only a few, I think this describes GOD's attitude:

And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp. And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, [one] of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them. And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, [and] that the LORD would put his spirit upon them! Numbers 11:27-29

In fact, what I find very striking in all of the NT epistles is the lack of discussion about personal revelations, gifts, signs or miracle working within the church.

Writing was a laborious, costly endeavor back then. They didn't have the luxury we have today of easy, instant, costless communication. Without considering this context, our perceptions can be easily skewed..

Thus, it seems to me that the point of "prophecy" in the NT was to reveal the person and work of Jesus and once that was accomplished, the focus turned to teaching that same message.

Absolutely. That doesn't prelude signs and wonders, though.

 

[Just here]

Writing was a laborious, costly endeavor back then. They didn't have the luxury we have today of easy, instant, costless communication. Without considering this context, our perceptions can be easily skewed..

Very true, there were many "other things" Jesus did which were not written down.

In the NT, the focus was on Jesus and his kingdom, I believe with the scripture eluding to signs and wonders will follow those who believe, it was a given within the the Lord's Kingdom, signs and wonders will be evident among His people.

 

[Wormwood]

I do realize that the word translated miracles is dunamis, but there it is for us to discern. As far as manifestations of the spirit being limited to only a few, I think this describes GOD's attitude:

And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp. And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, [one] of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them. And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, [and] that the LORD would put his spirit upon them! Numbers 11:27-29

Yes, it is "power" which in other places Paul speaks of the "power" of the spirit as conviction, not miracle working. Even if he is referencing miracle working...this is miracles "among them" and not "through them." We read in Acts that Paul did some miracle working as he went through the cities of southern Galatia. We do not read of the Galatians doing miracles in Acts.

Also, it is true that God desires all to have his Spirit, but Paul is very clear that not all are prophets. God does not desire all to be prophets or he would give everyone that gift because it is the Spirit who gives the gift "as he wills." (1 Cor. 12:11).

This is just an excuse that could be applied to any age.

An excuse? Okay, when is the last time you saw a dead person raised to life? We see it many times in the NT. Thus, by your rationale, we should be seeing this happen in the life of any and every committed Christian. If this is commonplace for Christians, then show me where this is happening regularly. Nothing in the Bible is "commonplace." We have 400 year gaps in time where there are no prophets or words from the Lord. Moreover, we live in an age where God does not have to continually repeat himself because we have access to his word at our fingers. If we don't believe what we have that has already been confirmed by miracles, why does he need to speak it audibly or provide more miracles? (cf. Luke 16:31)

Writing was a laborious, costly endeavor back then. They didn't have the luxury we have today of easy, instant, costless communication. Without considering this context, our perceptions can be easily skewed..

I may not be following you here. Are you suggesting that we find a lack of content in the NT about personal revelations and signs as to be expected in the Christian life because writing was expensive? If this is what you are saying, I would suggest that God is not limited in what he provided us with or how he provided it. If this is not what you are saying...I am not sure what your point is.

Absolutely. That doesn't prelude signs and wonders, though.

Well, the point here is that it does not seem reasonable to expect that every Christian should be hearing audible voices from God as implied elsewhere in this discussion. Some are "blessed" because they believe and do not see. Moreover, "signs" point to something (or more specifically someone). If that "someone" is Jesus and he has already been revealed through prophecy, then why would someone need a sign for a person who has already been revealed and a message that has already been confirmed? God quit sending manna from heaven when the people God entered into the promised land. They did not need continual signs to show God was going to use Moses to deliver them after he has already delivered them. Likewise, I don't think Christians need continual signs to show Jesus is the Savior of the world when that message has already been confirmed by signs and wonders.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I may not be following you here. Are you suggesting that we find a lack of content in the NT about personal revelations and signs as to be expected in the Christian life because writing was expensive? If this is what you are saying, I would suggest that God is not limited in what he provided us with or how he provided it. If this is not what you are saying...I am not sure what your point is.

I don't think signs and wonders are to be expected from anyone. I do think love and faith are to be expected from everyone. Nevertheless, signs and wonders do follow some. I am speaking from personal experience, not theoretical conjecture.

Well, the point here is that it does not seem reasonable to expect that every Christian should be hearing audible voices from God as implied elsewhere in this discussion. Some are "blessed" because they believe and do not see. Moreover, "signs" point to something (or more specifically someone). If that "someone" is Jesus and he has already been revealed through prophecy, then why would someone need a sign for a person who has already been revealed and a message that has already been confirmed? God quit sending manna from heaven when the people God entered into the promised land. They did not need continual signs to show God was going to use Moses to deliver them after he has already delivered them. Likewise, I don't think Christians need continual signs to show Jesus is the Savior of the world when that message has already been confirmed by signs and wonders.

I agree completely. btw, I have never heard GOD speak in an audible voice. For me, it is a very definite quickening in the spirit.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear R,

Well, that was well said! It is great when someone brings some balance and maturity to share. Keep up the good work.

I think that the discussion, as it is currently going, is one of the best I have experienced on this forum. People are mainly being polite and sharing very deeply about the subject both from scripture and their experiences. Kudo's to all.

Dear W,

The book of Acts may be a high point or it may just be a beginning. As it is written,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

John 14:12

My experience has been that when you receive the Tabernacles experience of "Divine Love " or " Love of the Spirit" it releases the gifting inside of you and allows the Holy Spirit to flow freely. Suddenly, you start to walk in the Spirit and Christianity does indeed becomes easy and light. All the things that used to weigh you down fall off and you just want to do His will. You start to hear His voice clearly and trust Him explicitly. As the body of Christ starts to unite as God desires amazing things start to happen and you begin to feel you don't want to leave each other. You know, by the Spirit, when those who care about are in trouble and you do whatever is needed to supply what each other needs.

This is the place I was privileged to visit for a while and is a place I really would like to live in forever. However, until my brethren are ready to come with me I cannot cross over and occupy that land fully. My testimony to you Wormwood and to everyone else is that what happened in Acts is actually how God wishes for His people to live and function in this present age and especially because of the darkness that is gathering around us. We were never meant to live without signs and wonders to aid in the preaching of the Gospel. Ours is a union between God and man just as there was a union between Christ and His Father. It is written,

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel."

John 5: 19,20

This is how Jesus lived and we, as His body, are to live the same by the measure given to each of us. We can do nothing of ourselves but as we see our elder brother (first born of many brethren) work we work also.

So, let us not despair that we cannot live as they did in the book of Acts, but rather let us believe that we can do all things through Christ which strengthens us.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The book of Acts may be a high point or it may just be a beginning. As it is written,
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

There is good reason to believe that GOD is saving the best for the end. That just seems to be the way he rolls.

And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but] thou hast kept the good wine until now. John 2:10

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.... And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:26-31

 

[Wormwood]

Dear W,

When I speak about hearing the voice of God (i.e. the Holy Spirit) it is a bit different than many people might assume. First of all, the Holy Spirit is God and when God speaks to us it is not an emotion but a person. It is direct communication with God like the apostles experienced. God spoke to Peter and said,

"And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."

Acts 10:15

and,

When God spoke to Philip,

"then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot."

I agree completely. btw, I have never heard GOD speak in an audible voice. For me, it is a very definite quickening in the spirit.

This is the type of problem we run into. Two "Spirit-filled" believers who are convinced that the moving of the Spirit happens in very specific ways. Im not trying to discount you two, but I am simply trying to display the kind of confusion this brings for non-charismatics such as myself. One says it is not emotionally based but a clear speaking of the Spirit in the same manner the Apostles heard Him...through audible voices. The other says, "a very definite quickening" in the spirit. (lowercase s?) So both of you are absolutely convinced that you are teaching how God intends to operate and are attempting to use Scripture to back how this works based on your own experiences and interpretations. Yet you both seem to disagree which makes things even more confusing...because both speak as an authority on how the Spirit speaks to us today. In my conversation with other charismatics, it gets even more diverse than this. Some demand tongues, some do not, some claim other specific signs must be seen while others ignore them altogether. I went to one charismatic event where the speaker claimed that by faith he could make gold glitter come out fall from scalps and on chairs as a way God displays his falling presence when we have enough faith. So for people who are absolutely convinced that they are authorities on teaching how Christians should anticipate and facilitate hearing from the Spirit we have no agreement and often sharp disagreement. Moreover, much of this lingo is very difficult to follow. What precisely do you mean "quickening" of the Spirit? Excitement? Increased pulse? strong conviction? I have been excited about things, biblical things, before and strongly convinced I was right and ended up being wrong. Mormons use this same argument that you will know the truth because of a quickening of the Spirit when you read the book of Mormon. So when you are teaching on these things, please don't use code language that makes sense in your own circles because they simply do not make sense to those outside those circles. When I think quickening I think either excitement or resurrection. Examples or specifics would be helpful as you talk about these things.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What precisely do you mean "quickening" of the Spirit? Excitement? Increased pulse? strong conviction? I have been excited about things, biblical things, before and strongly convinced I was right and ended up being wrong. Mormons use this same argument that you will know the truth because of a quickening of the Spirit when you read the book of Mormon. So when you are teaching on these things, please don't use code language that makes sense in your own circles because they simply do not make sense to those outside those circles. When I think quickening I think either excitement or resurrection. Examples or specifics would be helpful as you talk about these things.

No emotion.

Quicken

H2421 חָיָה chayah (khaw-yaw') v.
1. to live, whether literally or figuratively

G2227 ζωοποιέω zoopoieo (dzo-op-oy-eh'-o) v.
1. to (re-)vitalize

I am referring to the voice of truth. The spirit of truth bears witness with our spirit. Those who are exercised in discerning truth know the voice. I'm sure you know the voice even if you are not aware of it specifically.

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. John 6:45

And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. John 10:4

 

[Wormwood]

No emotion.

Quicken

H2421 חָיָה chayah (khaw-yaw') v.
1. to live, whether literally or figuratively

G2227 ζωοποιέω zoopoieo (dzo-op-oy-eh'-o) v.
1. to (re-)vitalize

I am referring to the voice of truth. The spirit of truth bears witness with our spirit. Those who are exercised in discerning truth know the voice. I'm sure you know the voice even if you are not aware of it specifically.

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. John 6:45

And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. John 10:4

Hmm, well I still just don't see this concept in Scripture. The texts you refer to are talking about those who are believing and responding to the teaching and words of Jesus. I think we all do this. I don't think Jesus has in mind here a quickened inner spirit apart from any verbal or written word. I think this has to do with the crowds that are actually embracing his teaching as opposed to the Pharisees, scribes and others who are rejecting his teaching. Those who know the truth hear the words of Jesus and accept them and respond. Seems pretty simple to me not an inner quickening that provides personal revelation of an inner voice. BTW, Justin is clearly teaching this "voice" is audible and should be anticipated as such if someone is really hearing from God. Do you disagree with this?

 

[Niki]

Niki.... my o my, where to start.
First. I said that, I read a story. I didn't quote the bible or list ch and v. The story is an analogy (analogy: similarity in some respects) You say GOD searches the earth for them that searching for HIM, and truly HE does. HE is also known to send angels to do thing and deliver messages. You may have read about them.

You said the story was sheer nonsense. You may have read That Jesus cleansed 10 lepers and sent them to see the Priests. the next day one of the lepers came back to thank Jesus. Jesus blessed him and sent him away. Jesus then turned to the Disciples and said were there not 10 lepers cleansed yesterday? where are the 9? SO,,, you say the analogy, (story) is nonsense?

This post is about signs. I responded to Justin that I have had signs from the Holy Spirit and that I didn't say it to boast, but to testify.
You seem to have a great deal of animosity for signs. Like I said I'm not here to boast so I didn't go into detail about my experience, but neither am I ashamed of it. ( I went into greater detail in The new member posting, Pompadour, at the bottom of page three) If you would like to read that and come back, we can talk about it.

This I believe. GOD said that he wrote HIS laws in our hearts. I believe that manifests is self in what we call our conscience,(recognition of right or wrong in ones self.) that we small voice, we all hear telling us not to do this or that, and makes us feel bad about some of the things we do and didn't do and when we hurt other people. Sooo, I believe we all hear from GOD a lot, we just don't know it.

Pomp.

Well you might start by trying not to be condescending, as in your Niki my o my where to start...that really does sound like you are talking to a child that just hasn't quite 'got it'

Sorry, and no reflection on you personally, but yes, it is sheer nonsense...the story...about the 10 angels...you might be surprised to know that some people actually believe
those kinds of stories, so yeah, nonsense. I know that angels are referred to as God's messengers...but they are not carrying about baskets with bows and even if they did,
would it take 10? I don't know ... how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? (medieval argument but curiously fitting)

Excuse me, but were the 10 lepers in a basket too? What kind of comparison is the Biblical and TRUE account of the lepers to the, in your own words, analogy of the UNTRUE
basket case? (I'm having a hard time keeping serious with the words here...sorry)

Signs are for unbelievers. I have had confirmations, visions, dreams and words. I still think this thread is setting a dangerous precedent...some people have assumed that I
am 'jealous' of those who have 'signs' or what have you and others assume I am anti Holy Spirit. Obviously, neither are true. However, cults have signs, pagans have signs,
devil worshipers have signs, people LOVE signs. There are more false signs than indications from God because people jump willy nilly into (false) prophecy, (false) healings,
(false) words that amount to fortune telling rather than guidance and on and on.

The actual problem in the church today among believers who believe in the gifts is not a LACK of signs but an overabundance. Cruise around the internet sometime and you
will see what I mean. Everyone (ok a bit of an exaggeration here) is either a prophet, a dreamer, a seer or a healer...anything and everything and no matter that most of
these things are false, that seems to stop no one. It's full speed ahead and never mind the mines in the water .

Encouraging seeking out signs and or personal revelation is not a good thing. I have said this many times in my life and I'll say it here too. It's this: People want signs and they
want a word but they do not KNOW the WORD they already have ...THE BIBLE. Why would God give words to people who do not know what He has already said?

There are so many groups these days that practice 'hearing' from God or 'feeling' the Holy Spirit. Yet, the Bible gives absolutely no instructions whatsoever on practing those
things...we have the school of the prophets...YET the NT declares that GOD gives the gifts as HE will .

I know it is not going to stop...it is far too popular and the adherents to the goosebump group just do not seem to think that God is referring to them when He speaks of
itching ears and the false teachers to tickle them.

Actually, this thread is not about signs then, is it. It is actually about personal revelation according to the op...

Dear N,

I feel your zeal yet I know that you are not getting what I am saying clearly. The Spirit and the word agree. They agree because they Spirit wrote the word. In fact, the Spirit proceeds the scripture because the scripture came from the Spirit. (I am not talking about the Logos in case you are wondering.)

So, it is not that people seek after experience as much as they seek after God. They want to experience God and this, in my book, is a very good thing. Those who wish to make due with a intellectually Christianity do themselves a disservice. It is amazing to me that I can state clearly the way things are and those who read it simply cannot understand. Truly, we need spiritual eyes to see and spiritual ears to hear. I am not trying to down you are even think of myself higher than you...these things were given to me and I did not come up with them. I just don't know how to explain it to you so you can understand. May you could try praying and asking God to reveal what He is saying (if He is saying anything) in what I am writing.

I suppose I am currently wondering how I might explain myself better. To me these things make a lot of sense but it is very difficult to tell others about them so that they can understand. When someone who speaks in other tongues tries to relate the experience to someone who has only experienced salvation there is a gulf between them that is difficult to bridge. In the same way, when I speak to others about the tabernacle experience it is difficult to bridge the gap between those who have not had the benefit of this experience. I guess, it depends upon the openness of the person to the Spirit. Some, who have just experienced salvation, jump at the chance to be filled with His Spirit and speak in other tongues. I think it will be like this with the Tabernacle experience too. I tell you though, starting to become one with God and feeling His divine love flow through you knocks the socks off of anything else I have ever encountered in God.

Blessings,

Justin

Um...n o o ...you are not getting what I am saying actually. Sorry, but you are splitting hairs on this one. If they are seeking after God and have no experience that raises
the hair on their arms does that mean that God is not there or that He does not hear them?

I can assure (you'll have to take my word for it as you don't know me even though I am making a big fuss in your thread) that I know EXACTLY what you are speaking about
and have seen and heard more than I want to. THAT is the reason for my cautionary ranting. (I can self depreciate as well)

Of course wanting to experience God is a good thing. In fact that is an understatement. But that is also the problem, eh? The Christian life should be disciplined and not all
about feelings. If a person feels a certain way, they are just as likely to attribute their feeling to a lack with God when in realtiy, the situation with God has not changed one
tiny little bit...God does not change and that is WHY we are admonished to study to KNOW Him...He knows how wishy washy we are and that we run on feelings.

Feelings, when it comes to God, is like running on junk food. (hey that's a good analogy!) The word is the real nourishment for our souls and spirits.......feelings are
the high...like sugar. Too many people want a sugar rush instead of sitting down for a good meal that they can take the rest of the day to digest.

I have to agree with Wormwood regarding your wording. It is just not something I am comfortable with.....and again, I am not stranger to manifestations in church, and the
all the other rich and varied things that one can experience in their walk with God.

Tabernacle 'experience'...I assume you are meaning Holy of Holies?

Would you care to expound?

I think it will be like this with the Tabernacle experience too. I tell you though, starting to become one with God and feeling His divine love flow through you knocks the socks off of anything else I have ever encountered in God.

Starting to become one with God? He is already my Father and I am His child...I think this is some sort of extra-biblical teaching you have here . If so,
this is a new age we are entering and God help us.

The energy you speak of is not IMO, God. Sorry, I have to state what I believe to be true. Like I said, VERY dangerous ground...but who is going to believe
that? I begin to understand why I have gone through some of what I have...deception is getting worse and worse. If it 'feels' good...it must be God.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Hmm, well I still just don't see this concept in Scripture. The texts you refer to are talking about those who are believing and responding to the teaching and words of Jesus. I think we all do this. I don't think Jesus has in mind here a quickened inner spirit apart from any verbal or written word. I think this has to do with the crowds that are actually embracing his teaching as opposed to the Pharisees, scribes and others who are rejecting his teaching. Those who know the truth hear the words of Jesus and accept them and respond. Seems pretty simple to me not an inner quickening that provides personal revelation of an inner voice. BTW, Justin is clearly teaching this "voice" is audible and should be anticipated as such if someone is really hearing from God. Do you disagree with this?

We are able to respond because:

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, ...Romans 8:16

Did Phillip read in the bible that he was to go out into the desert and find a eunuch? IMO there was an inner urging that he obeyed.

I do not agree with an audible voice requirement. Not saying it doesn't exist; I just have never experienced it. A bit skeptical, I might say.

 

[Wormwood]

CRFTD,

Thanks for answering my questions. Please do not misunderstand me. I am not saying that the Spirit doesn't work in powerful, insightful and miraculous ways. My point is simply that I don't see Scripture saying this is normative for every believer. So I am not claiming that Phillips experience is illegitimate or that someone could not have a similar experience. What I am saying is that Phillip's experience recorded in Scripture does not make that normative for everyone else. I think often these discussions on hearing the Spirit, experiences, visions and so forth are difficult for people because they are often portrayed as depicting one's spiritual maturity or closeness with God. (i.e. they just dont understand because they don't know how to hear from the Spirit....or...they are all about the letter and do not listen to the Spirit, or as I have been accused on here numerous times by some as having "man's understanding" rather than the Spirits understanding). My point is that I just do not see this teaching in Scripture. I have no doubt it happens, but that it should happen if someone is spiritual and mature is another story altogether.

Although I focus heavily on the actual teaching of Scripture and the inspired author's intent does not mean I discount a walk that prays continually and seeks to know God more intimately. I have had some occasions where God has powerfully answered prayer in my life, but this is certainly not a daily occurrence. I think a life where one is focused on God and in regular prayer and meditation on God's word is very important. However, my experience regarding the charismatic groups I have been in connection with over the years has not been very positive. This is not to say anything against you or Justin, but I ask detailed questions because I want to understand your perspective and not assume yours is the same as those I have known that have been unfavorable.

For instance, I have been to prophecy conferences where prophetic utterances are given by people who claim they are full of the Spirit and led by the Spirit. The prophecies spoken over me simply did not come to pass. They said I would have two children, a boy and a girl. I have five children currently, all girls. Moreover, these prophecies sounded much more like a psychic hotline where people try to predict your future and nothing at all like the prescriptive prophecies in Scripture. Many of these prophets and self-proclaimed Apostles were discovered to be living very sexually immoral lives. Moreover, many of the sessions and churches I went to in this regard were highly manipulative. They would pressure people to have experiences and make it sound like they had to muster up enough faith so the Spirit would fall and do something dramatic. There was very little teaching or focus on Scripture, but a lot of emotionalism, predictions and calling out sicknesses to see if anyone would respond so they could rebuke it. One pastor asked people to come up and he said the Spirit told him all who had not spoken in tongues would receive the gift if they came forward. I went forward, but in spite of all the pressure and coaching from the pastor, I did not actually get slain in the Spirit or receive tongues. I was certainly open, but I also wasn't going to fake something just to relieve the awkwardness of the situation. So again, another promise from someone claiming to speak for God as a prophet/Apostle or whatever else that did not come to pass. I am unimpressed with much of the self-labeling and claims to speak for God among many of these groups as their seems to be no accountability for those who claim to utter the words of the Spirit of God and yet are clearly not. I find this a very dangerous thing to do.

I only bring all this up to share with you my experiences so you know how it shapes my understanding. I have heard people all the time claim to be "Spirit-filled" having visions, hearing voices or appointed as an Apostle and I have yet to see one of those people actually work a legitimate miracle, have a healthy view of what faith actually is, or speak a prophetic word that was clear and truly came to pass. Most of the people I have known who grew up being discipled in these churches and conferences no longer even consider themselves to be Christians. Many grew tired of the constant drive to bring about some experience or revelation and drifted away to New Age, Buddhism or now claim to be atheist. My experience is that these experiential groups often lack any foundation that carries believers into genuine lasting and growing maturity (and please don't misunderstand, I am not claiming all charismatics to be only experiential..some do teach the word regularly and do not emphasize experiences very much).

Again, this is not an accusation against you, but I simply share this so you understand why I am a bit skeptical at the titles and claims people like to bestow on themselves to establish their own authority to teach on things of the Spirit.

 

[Niki]

Well I looked up this Tabernacle experience and of course the web yielded some results.

I have typed it out as the site did not allow copy/paste, but I am including this link to verify. What I refer to below, is located at the end of the post.

In particular, I am concerned with this:

In order to receive the Tabernacles experience of divine love you must first realize you must first realize that it is a gift that God wants to give to you. Secondly, you must ask
for it just like you asked to be saved and just like you asked to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Thirdly, by faith, when you start to feel the love of God start to flow you must
yield to Him and do what the Holy Spirit in you wants to do.

Does anyone else think this is extra Biblical or is it just me? Frankly, I would have nothing whatsoever to do with this. They stress yielding and giving control over to the
spirit in you. That, is NOT Biblical. The Bible teaches that God renews our mind and at no time should we loose control....loosing control is not a leading of the
Holy Spirit. This, is false teaching and very dangerous.

Again, I realize I may be a majority of one here....but maybe not?

 

[pompadour]

Wormwood: why the attack? quoting the bible in a Christian forum is some how unbibical and divisive. " The Devil walks about as a roaring Lion seeking who he may devour " Is not appropriate?

Niki: I like to use analogy's, metaphors, and Parables, My bad. Jesus used them, that puts me in good company.
Niki my o my where to start. worked , got your attention.

You got worked up over weather Angels carry baskets or not and miss the whole point of the story ( analogy ) " I cant see the forest because the trees are in the way "
The point of the story ( analogy ) was that 10 people asked for healing from Jesus, all 10 were healed, only one came back and thanked Jesus ( sent God a thank you note ) all 10 were healed but only one was blessed. the one that thanked Jesus did not have to stand in line behind the other 9 because they were not there. thank you Father prayers have very little computation.If you want to get Gods attention? Thank Him for answered and unanswered prayers. There, does that clear any confusion over Angels with baskets? My analogy stands on biblical truth. despite your negative critique.

Speaking about baskets. " baskets case" ? is that the pot, calling the kettle black?

Surprise, surprise I do agree with you on one point. there a lot of phony prophets and tong talkers out there, but not all. You tend to put them all in one BASKET and throw them all out because it can causes confusion. end the confusion by judging their fruit.
God bless, Pomp.

 

[Niki]

and it gets worse. There are other sites and teaching attributed to W M Branham. He is considered a false prophet by most conservative Christians...spirit filled or not.

Yeah, a bowl of wiggly squiggly false teaching IMO.

Wormwood: why the attack? quoting the bible in a Christian forum is some how unbibical and divisive. " The Devil walks about as a roaring Lion seeking who he may devour " Is not appropriate?

Niki: I like to use analogy's, metaphors, and Parables, My bad. Jesus used them, that puts me in good company.
Niki my o my where to start. worked , got your attention.

You got worked up over weather Angels carry baskets or not and miss the whole point of the story ( analogy ) " I cant see the forest because the trees are in the way "
The point of the story ( analogy ) was that 10 people asked for healing from Jesus, all 10 were healed, only one came back and thanked Jesus ( sent God a thank you note ) all 10 were healed but only one was blessed. the one that thanked Jesus did not have to stand in line behind the other 9 because they were not there. thank you Father prayers have very little computation.If you want to get Gods attention? Thank Him for answered and unanswered prayers. There, does that clear any confusion over Angels with baskets? My analogy stands on biblical truth. despite your negative critique.

Speaking about baskets. " baskets case" ? is that the pot, calling the kettle black?

Surprise, surprise I do agree with you on one point. there a lot of phony prophets and tong talkers out there, but not all. You tend to put them all in one BASKET and throw them all out because it can causes confusion. end the confusion by judging their fruit.
God bless, Pomp.

Oh come on. Are you going to go the route of attributing things to people on a forum (me specifically) that does not convey facial expression or emotions apart from
the emoticons?

Yes, Jesus used certain devices, but for some reason His make more sense.

Um...when I see Niki that usually gets my attention anyway.

I got worked up? Seriously? If you can't prove that and since it isn't true, you, along with others here, should not indulge yourself in believing you know what
others are thinking or how they look when they write.

For example, I did not look like this: ...it would have been more like this: <_< or even this: :mellow:

For some strange reason that may be beyond your reach, I do not see an anology with the baskets and the lepers and to be truthful, I have forgotten about it until
just now when you reminded me again. (I decided you may need emoticons to help you out with your interpretation ^_^ )

Timing is everything, eh? How about the source of these Tabernacle experiences? Just ask and you shall be taken over with love and let it do what it wants to?

What follows is not in response to you personally Mr P

If anyone knows anything about eastern religions, then you know the strange parallel lines being drawn...if you don't know about eastern teachings then you
should educate yourself. This Tabernacle experience sounds like a hidden door to the occult.

“Many do not understand the concept of yoga. Some think it is a religion. Some think it is physical exercise for health and some think it is a psychological system. All this is based on a misunderstanding of yoga. Yoga is simply a relationship. The word yoga comes from the biblical word, yoke which in turn originated from the root word in Sanskrit jugit. Both mean joining together or to unite. Yoga is the union of an individual consciousness with infinite consciousness. A yogi is a person who leans completely on the Supreme Consciousness, God, until they have merged their individual self with the Infinite Self. This is all….”

The above is a description of what yoga actually is from a yoga teacher but is sounds an awful like the some experience being sought after here that I would run, not walk, away from

conclusion: there really is nothing new under the sun. The Bible is right again!