Simple Chart of End Times Events

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JosyWales

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Mary, I hope you take a GOOD look at my very simple chart. It is VERY different in content than the one you linked to.

I have reposted it because I noticed some things that were not either clear or correct in the earlier version and I felt that a better revision was needed.

As you can tell, it was quite the job getting it up, but I think the end product was worth the effort.
 

veteran

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Very easy... to know your chart is wrong. You've got the sounding of the Revelation trumpets timed from the beginning of the 70 weeks period of Dan.9.


Dan 9:25
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
(KJV)

The command to restore and build Jerusalem after Daniel's Babylon captivity was given in 454 B.C. Astyages (i.e., Artaxerxes - the Great King) issued the decree of Dan.9:25, the first period of the "seven weeks" (seven sevens).

That began the count of the symbolic 70 weeks, each week symbolic of a year. The command issued in 454 B.C. and 49 years later ended with the dedication of the second temple in Jerusalem in 405 B.C. per Ezra 6:10, 15-19.

The second period ("threescore and two weeks") follow from that point, from 405 B.C to the time of Christ's first coming and His being cut off (29 A.D.).


So all you've done is waste a magnamanous amount of time.
 

JosyWales

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You ASSUME that this statement is referring to an event that happened back on that date when you have NO proof of it. You then ASSUME that the bible does not mean what it says in reference to the 70 weeks and reinterprete Gods word it to fit your own taste.

I reject your assumptions and your reinterpretations if for no other reason (but there are plenty of other reasons) than that John in Revelation spoke of the trumps as yet to happen, not already past or even ongoing as you suggest.

As I keep saying, the 70 weeks of Daniel combined with all the days listed in Revelation concerning the 5th - 7th Angels plus the time the 2 witnesses lay dead is exactly 2300 days, meaning NO PART of this event has occured yet. This is also proved in that the 42 months, the 1260 days and the 3 1/2 times are all the same, which can also be easily proved as I have already done.

This means that NO PART has happened yet and when the bible gives us times to go by, they are to be taken literally and not reinterpreted to your particular liking as you are doing here.
 

veteran

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JosyWales said:
You ASSUME that this statement is referring to an event that happened back on that date when you have NO proof of it. You then ASSUME that the bible does not mean what it says in reference to the 70 weeks and reinterprete Gods word it to fit your own taste.

I reject your assumptions and your reinterpretations if for no other reason (but there are plenty of other reasons) than that John in Revelation spoke of the trumps as yet to happen, not already past or even ongoing as you suggest.

As I keep saying, the 70 weeks of Daniel combined with all the days listed in Revelation concerning the 5th - 7th Angels plus the time the 2 witnesses lay dead is exactly 2300 days, meaning NO PART of this event has occured yet. This is also proved in that the 42 months, the 1260 days and the 3 1/2 times are all the same, which can also be easily proved as I have already done.

This means that NO PART has happened yet and when the bible gives us times to go by, they are to be taken literally and not reinterpreted to your particular liking as you are doing here.
You are actually the one guilty of nothing but assumptions, and pushing gross deception.

The concept of the Dan.9 command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem after the Babylon captivity is easy... to understand. And the concept of the actual restoration of Jerusalem, the wall, and the temple after the Babylon captivity period is even easier... to understand, because it was fulfilled in history by a REAL building.

For someone to even try... to get away from that meaning shows how nutty they are.
 

JosyWales

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No Vet, it is nutty to try to use an event that happened well before Revelation is even written to make another assumption which requires the twisting of scripture to make it fit. I have shown in my Chart that the 70 weeks and the times listed in Revelation adds up to exactly 2300 days. It requires no assumptions on my part, unlike your way, and works out perfectly. Your way is assumption based on error and, in the final analysis, fails by reason of confusion.
 

veteran

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JosyWales said:
No Vet, it is nutty to try to use an event that happened well before Revelation is even written to make another assumption which requires the twisting of scripture to make it fit. I have shown in my Chart that the 70 weeks and the times listed in Revelation adds up to exactly 2300 days. It requires no assumptions on my part, unlike your way, and works out perfectly. Your way is assumption based on error and, in the final analysis, fails by reason of confusion.
Your chart begins on a false basis from the very start, completely denying what is written in the Daniel 9 70 weeks prophecy about the command to restore Jerusalem and build the next temple after Judah's 70 years Babylon captivity, which was history. The prophecy begins at that point and continues all the way to the end of this world, and into Christ's Milennium reign. You're instead trying to move all that only for the end. Won't work.
 

JosyWales

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Well, now lets think about this for a minute.

Vet says:

Your chart begins on a false basis from the very start, completely denying what is written in the Daniel 9 70 weeks prophecy about the command to restore Jerusalem and build the next temple after Judah's 70 years Babylon captivity, which was history.

Vet assumes I am starting out on a false basis because I do not reinterprete Gods word in the bible to say 70 years when it actually says 70 weeks. He also assumes that the time spoken of in Daniel is the times when the Temple is rebuilt after the Captivity, even though it is destroyed again later.

This is a problem because even using the arbitrary dates that he grasps (that cannot be proven by the way) he can still only come up with part of the time that is prophecied. At best, if you reinterprete the 70 weeks as days that are then reconverted to years (a lot of reinterpreting going on in here) he can still only come up with 69 weeks, which he says is actually 483 years (everyone still following this?).

At this point he has a problem, because even tho he runs the first two breaks in the 70 week prophecy together (thats the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks) now suddenly he has to break the last week out (which remember is now no longer a week but 7 years) and throw a 2000+ year gap into it.

This makes no sense to me, not even mentioning all the other prophecies you have to throw out to make this fit.

The prophecy begins at that point and continues all the way to the end of this world, and into Christ's Milennium reign. You're instead trying to move all that only for the end. Won't work.

It only doesnt work if you try to fit it into your erronious assumptions.

As you can see from the chart, by taking the 70 weeks at face value (this means to believe the bible means exactly what it says) and adding it to all the times listed in Revelation concerning the Angels (whom I believe to be real men) along with the time the 2 witnesses lay dead, you have exactly 2300 days, which, lo and behold, is exactly what the bible says in Daniel 8:14.

If you really are confused as to the simplicity of this, please read the detailed explaination I have provided that takes it step by step for you.

NO part of the 70 weeks has happened yet. You have bought a lie.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, JosyWales.
JosyWales said:
No Vet, it is nutty to try to use an event that happened well before Revelation is even written to make another assumption which requires the twisting of scripture to make it fit. I have shown in my Chart that the 70 weeks and the times listed in Revelation adds up to exactly 2300 days. It requires no assumptions on my part, unlike your way, and works out perfectly. Your way is assumption based on error and, in the final analysis, fails by reason of confusion.
It doesn't even matter if your chart adds the times up to "exactly" 2300 days (which it does NOT), since the 2300 days to which you cling were FULFILLED IN THE PAST!!!

Let's look closely at the chapter upon which you hang SO much of your theory:

Daniel 8:1-27
1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.
2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.
3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.
5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had there seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.
KJV


First, we are talking of Belshazzar, the son of Nabonidus, who took co-regency of Babylon in 553 B.C. Therefore, his "third year" would have been in 551-550 B.C.

During the vision, Dani'el was instructed as to the interpretation of his vision. First, he was told that the ram with two horns was Media and Persia, who would soon come to power over Babylon. They conquered Bavel or Babylon on October 12, 539 B.C.

He was told that the rough, shaggy goat was "Grecia" or "Greece." At the time it was fulfilled, we learn that it was specifically called "Macedon," and the "great horn" was Alexander the Great, who came to power in 336 B.C. and decidedly defeated Darius III of Medo-Persia in 332 B.C. But the "great horn was broken" on June 11, 323 B.C. and the four lesser horns spreading out to the four winds are the four generals of Alexander who ruled over the four portions of Alexander's empire, the Kingdom of Macedonia, the Seleucid Empire, the Ptolemaic Empire in Egypt, and the Kingdom of Pergamum.

That "little horn" that came out of their kingdom and waxed great and "took away the daily sacrifice" was Antiochus IV Epiphanes who reigned from 175 to 164 B.C. over the Seleucid Empire. He was also pushing to rule over the Ptolemaic Empire but was thwarted by Rome. In his anger, he took it out on Isra'el on his way back to his home in Damascus.

He sacrificed a pig on the altar at the entrance to the Temple and set up an idol to his god, Zeus, within the Temple proper! The "2300 days" was the time it took from that point in 167 B.C. until the "Maccabees," Hebrew for "hammer" Helenized, to cleanse the Temple and restore the daily sacrifice, after Antiochus died in 164 B.C. from an unexplained disease.

1 and 2 Maccabees may not be "canonical," but they ARE historical of that period! Even if we can't think of these books as part of the Bible proper, they are still historical books recounting the deeds of Y'hudah (Judas) "Maccabees" and his brothers in purging Isra'el from the invasions and the Helenized Jews and Antiochus' empire.

You've taken the 2300 days OUT OF CONTEXT and have twisted their interpretation into a fantasy about the future. Neither Dani'el chapter 8 nor chapter 9 should be considered as primarily about the future, particularly the "Antichrist" or rather the Beast.

I should add that there IS such a thing as FULFILLED prophecy, a prophecy that was fulfilled in the past and the prophecy is CLOSED! Like those prophecies that were fulfilled in the first advent of the Messiah Yeshua` (or Jesus Christ), these prophecies also are done and over IN THE PAST! Leave them closed and don't try to apply them to some fanciful fabrication for our future!
 

JosyWales

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Retro says:
It doesn't even matter if your chart adds the times up to "exactly" 2300 days (which it does NOT), since the 2300 days to which you cling were FULFILLED IN THE PAST!!!

Retro then posts the entire 8th chapter of Daniel to support his assumptions.

And assumptions they are, not proofs.

He then tries to say that what I have shown you does not add up. Its right there for all to see, so if you think my simple math (and it is very simple, unlike the confusion he is trying to make you buy) is incorrect, then so be it. However, I have plainly documented why I think its correct so you can make your own decision.

Also, he states as fact many dates that have no way of being supported, such as the date he associates with Belshazzar. Heck, many tried to say that Belshazzar didnt even exist at all until they found a cuniform tablet called the Nabonidus Chronicle (most of which is illegible and fragmantary and in no way can definate dates be drawn from it) with his name on it in the 1990's. This is all the evidence they are ever found on this guy, so to try to put dates on him is rediculous.

Not only that, but the 2300 days spoken of in Daniel 8 is connected to the Ram and the He goat, yet Retro, because he can not fit it into his theory, has pulled it out completely from that time frame that he himself purports to be true and assigned it to the period of the Maccabees. I guess he figured he had to do something with it, but to say that I am taking the 2300 days out of context, and then to do that is amazing.

Also, if you actually buy the lie that Revelation is already over, even though all the events Retro speaks of had already happened well before Revelation was even written, then I will probably never convince you to just look at what I have posted and take the time to read my explaination for it.

I stand by my chart and my explaination, since it covers all the bases and is not only simple to understand but is solid as a rock.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, JosyWales.

JosyWales said:
Retro says:
It doesn't even matter if your chart adds the times up to "exactly" 2300 days (which it does NOT), since the 2300 days to which you cling were FULFILLED IN THE PAST!!!

Retro then posts the entire 8th chapter of Daniel to support his assumptions.

And assumptions they are, not proofs.

He then tries to say that what I have shown you does not add up. Its right there for all to see, so if you think my simple math (and it is very simple, unlike the confusion he is trying to make you buy) is incorrect, then so be it. However, I have plainly documented why I think its correct so you can make your own decision.

Also, he states as fact many dates that have no way of being supported, such as the date he associates with Belshazzar. Heck, many tried to say that Belshazzar didnt even exist at all until they found a cuniform tablet called the Nabonidus Chronicle (most of which is illegible and fragmantary and in no way can definate dates be drawn from it) with his name on it in the 1990's. This is all the evidence they are ever found on this guy, so to try to put dates on him is rediculous.

Not only that, but the 2300 days spoken of in Daniel 8 is connected to the Ram and the He goat, yet Retro, because he can not fit it into his theory, has pulled it out completely from that time frame that he himself purports to be true and assigned it to the period of the Maccabees. I guess he figured he had to do something with it, but to say that I am taking the 2300 days out of context, and then to do that is amazing.

Also, if you actually buy the lie that Revelation is already over, even though all the events Retro speaks of had already happened well before Revelation was even written, then I will probably never convince you to just look at what I have posted and take the time to read my explaination for it.

I stand by my chart and my explaination, since it covers all the bases and is not only simple to understand but is solid as a rock.
First off, it doesn't matter how much Scripture I post when it is all applicable and is better to read than the rantings of ANY one fallible human being.

Second, you can stand by your chart and explanation all you want. It doesn't change the fact that these verses were fulfilled in the past.

Third, you can SAY that the dates are "unconfirmed," but that's only because you haven't researched it for yourself, and when it comes to prophecy, the statement is "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to THINK that history must be repeated!"

IT IS FULFILLED PROPHECY!!! This is not guess work nor is it my imagination; it's ARCHAEOLOGY, PERSIAN HISTORY, GREEK HISTORY, and SELEUCID HISTORY! Read the articles on Media-Persia, Alexander the Great, the fate of his empire, Darius III, Nabonidus, Belshazzar, and Antiochus IV Epiphanes in the online Encyclopedias and Wikipedia! What MAY have been unknown in the past is CERTAINLY known now! It would be a good idea to keep abreast of the developments in archaeology and history! It's not a static science; there are discoveries being made ALL THE TIME!

Fourth, "Hello, McFly, Hello! Is anybody in there? Think, McFly! Think!" OF COURSE "the 2300 days spoken of in Daniel 8 is connected to the Ram and the He goat!" But what you're NOT getting, yet, (why? who knows?) is that Gavri'el (Gabriel) is told to explain it to Dani'el and we read the explanation of who "the Ram and the He goat" are in Dan. 8:20-21!

Fifth, when you "reply" why do you insist on talking ABOUT me in the third person as though you were talking to someone else? Are you "replying" to me, or aren't you?!

Sixth, yeah, it's "not only simple to understand but solid as a" stubborn mule's SKULL! Do we have to use a 2x4 to get your attention first?

Believe whatever you want to believe. You will anyway. But, anybody with a little sense is going to steer clear of mathematical nonsense (sometimes called "mathemagical proof"), and that includes your 2300 malarky. I don't like being mean, but I'm not going to put up with your gainsaying! Oh, and by the way, I do NOT believe that Revelation is already fulfilled! It is YOU who insists on equating portions of Dani'el 8 and 9 with Revelation! It is only Dani'el's prophecies that are mostly already fulfilled in the past. So, I really don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth!
 

JosyWales

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Retro, arguing with you is futile. You are wrong and I think most here know it.

Retro in gray (like his logic):
First off, it doesn't matter how much Scripture I post when it is all applicable and is better to read than the rantings of ANY one fallible human being.

So your solution is to post a whole bunch of bible, then do the rantings. Makes sense to me.

Second, you can stand by your chart and explanation all you want. It doesn't change the fact that these verses were fulfilled in the past.

Stating assumptions as fact does not make them so. You take events outside the bible and place them as you will, even though they do not fit many other parts.

Third, you can SAY that the dates are "unconfirmed," but that's only because you haven't researched it for yourself, and when it comes to prophecy, the statement is "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to THINK that history must be repeated!"

I did look into your dates and they were pretty iffy. By the way, I dont use the Watchtower as my source, perhaps you should do the same.

IT IS FULFILLED PROPHECY!!! This is not guess work nor is it my imagination; it's ARCHAEOLOGY, PERSIAN HISTORY, GREEK HISTORY, and SELEUCID HISTORY! Read the articles on Media-Persia, Alexander the Great, the fate of his empire, Darius III, Nabonidus, Belshazzar, and Antiochus IV Epiphanes in the online Encyclopedias and Wikipedia! What MAY have been unknown in the past is CERTAINLY known now! It would be a good idea to keep abreast of the developments in archaeology and history! It's not a static science; there are discoveries being made ALL THE TIME!

No, its not. There are too many discrepencies in what happened compared to the prophecies in the Bible. Anyone with even a slight bit of knowledge of the Bible can tell that. However, I dont care about your interpretation, since mine is better. I dont even have to leave the Bible and include all the unprovable variables that you must to prove what I say is true.

Fourth, "Hello, McFly, Hello! Is anybody in there? Think, McFly! Think!" OF COURSE "the 2300 days spoken of in Daniel 8 is connected to the Ram and the He goat!" But what you're NOT getting, yet, (why? who knows?) is that Gavri'el (Gabriel) is told to explain it to Dani'el and we read the explanation of who "the Ram and the He goat" are in Dan. 8:20-21!

Oh oh, he's starting to get excited now. His stuff doesnt add up so he now he is trying to say that Gabriel is backing him up, which is nonsense. Once again, all this is covered in my chart along with full explaination, all fully provable Biblically as I have done.

Fifth, when you "reply" why do you insist on talking ABOUT me in the third person as though you were talking to someone else? Are you "replying" to me, or aren't you?!

Actually, I am talking to anyone who might be reading this and it is directed to any that wish to understand what is really going on and is about to happen. If you are one of those people, then I am talking to you, but if not, then I am talking to them.

Sixth, yeah, it's "not only simple to understand but solid as a" stubborn mule's SKULL! Do we have to use a 2x4 to get your attention first?

This is kind of funny in a sad way.

Believe whatever you want to believe. You will anyway. But, anybody with a little sense is going to steer clear of mathematical nonsense (sometimes called "mathemagical proof"), and that includes your 2300 malarky. I don't like being mean, but I'm not going to put up with your gainsaying! Oh, and by the way, I do NOT believe that Revelation is already fulfilled! It is YOU who insists on equating portions of Dani'el 8 and 9 with Revelation! It is only Dani'el's prophecies that are mostly already fulfilled in the past. So, I really don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth!

You are correct, I much prefer to believe in the Truth that God gave me instead of a failed philosophy that has already destroyed so many. As for my math, it is spot on and it proves that NO PART of the 70 weeks or the 2300 days has happened yet and that you can actually take the Bible at face value without resorting to unprovable and unsupportable dates and interpretations that may or may not be applicable. As for putting words in your mouth, I have no need to do that since you do so well in this department already.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, JosyWales.

Actually, my stuff adds up just fine. In fact, I don't need to talk about your numbers and calculations except to help YOU! As I've already said, you'll continue to believe what you want to believe regardless what anyone says. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." All I'm going to say now is this: Consider the possibility - just the possibility - that it was the 2,300 days required to cleanse the second Temple by Judas Maccabees and his brothers (because that's what Dani'el 8:13-14 says is the purpose for this time period). Two thousand three hundred days is six years, three months, and twenty days, and that is how long it took from the time that the pig sacrifice desecrated the Temple to the time when the cleansing was both "allowed" (by the LACK of Jewish Helenizers and the Seleucid invaders) and accomplished.

The trick is to know WHICH prophecies are already fulfilled and ... LEAVE THEM OUT OF YOUR ESCHATOLOGY!

Anyway, hope you had a great "Resurrection Day" (Sunday). May the LORD bless your studies.
 

JosyWales

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Retro said:

Actually, my stuff adds up just fine. In fact, I don't need to talk about your numbers and calculations except to help YOU!

Well, thanks for your concern but I think Im ok with what I have discovered.

As I've already said, you'll continue to believe what you want to believe regardless what anyone says. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." All I'm going to say now is this: Consider the possibility - just the possibility - that it was the 2,300 days required to cleanse the second Temple by Judas Maccabees and his brothers (because that's what Dani'el 8:13-14 says is the purpose for this time period). Two thousand three hundred days is six years, three months, and twenty days, and that is how long it took from the time that the pig sacrifice desecrated the Temple to the time when the cleansing was both "allowed" (by the LACK of Jewish Helenizers and the Seleucid invaders) and accomplished.

Believe me Retro, I have heard this many times, but no matter how much I hear it, I still dont believe it, especially after what I realized and have showed in my chart above.

You might consider as well that originally, the 2300 days were said to be the same as the 70 weeks in the way the days to years were counted. They had to make a change when it turned out that that explaination left them hanging (on the top of a mountain as I recall). Now, from what you say, it is changed to be a 2300 day period during the time of the Maccabees, even though the events that occured at that time do not fit perfectly into the prophecy as it is described in Daniel nor does it combine with the other prophecies at all.

It also means that now you are counting one prophecy as true days, which is exactly what I do, only I take it further by applying it to all the times listed in Daniel, which should make more sense if part of it is that way, and actually fit it into a cohesive and explainable unit that is supported by vast amounts of other scripture, as my chart and explaination shows. You, however, still hold on to the failed Day for Year interpretation for the 70 weeks with no reason to count one one way and one the other.

There are many more problems with your interpretation as well, but my goal here is not to focus on your nonsupportable theory, but on my well supported one.

The trick is to know WHICH prophecies are already fulfilled and ... LEAVE THEM OUT OF YOUR ESCHATOLOGY!

I dont know if this will help you but there is one thing I would like to point out.

In my explaination above, I make a point that there was a pattern that God established during the time of Daniel and his fellow prophets and that this pattern is what we are now to use to understand what is getting ready to happen. This is why the old events dont match up exactly to the prophesies, because they are only to be used as a guide for what is to come. They are not the event itself.

Do you see similarities in past events with some of the prophesies? Yes you do, because you are meant to, just as Daniel was to see the relationship between the 70 year prophecy of his time and the future 70 week prophecy that was to come. However, are you applying this pattern to the events to come? No, you are holding to the pattern and trying to believe that it is the actual event, when it is not. What you then do is create a set of events that has no relation to them and apply them to the future Apocalypse and this is where your confustion occurs.

I understand why you think the events have already happened, and this is both correct and incorrect and I hope I dont confuse you by saying that. As you see in Revelation, the cycle repeats itself and will happen again. It does so 4 times in Revelation alone, What happened in the past will happen again in the future and it is this future cycle (or cycles) that I am describing in my chart. The apocalyptic cycle that occured during Daniels time is to be repeated and this cycle may have occured several times even before that, such as in the time of Noah and Job. This may be the reason they are mentioned in that prophecy in Ezekiel 14, but now I am getting into things that are not as easy to support as my chart.

I have to warn you that thinking that these events are past is as dangerous as thinking you will fly into the sky during the Apocalypse. Both groups are going to be severely disappointed.

Anyway, hope you had a great "Resurrection Day" (Sunday). May the LORD bless your studies.

Thank you, I hope the same for you as well.
 

veteran

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The 2300 days of Dan.8:13-14 aren't fulfilled yet either, so there's another deception with those who say they are already past history, especially by those who deny the Daniel 9 Scripture about the final "one week" period being for the end times to end this present world.

The end of the 2300 days period ends with Christ's future second coming. Only with Christ's second coming with the idea of the sanctuary (put for Christ's future Milennium Temple in Jerusalem) being cleansed will occur when Christ returns, and not before.

The 2300 days includes the time of the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel, and that is an event still yet to occur in Jerusalem, it's for the coming tribulation time Jesus mentioned in Matt.24 which relates to the 6 Seals of Revelation 6, and all that is specific for the last days prior to our Lord Jesus' second coming, which is still... yet future to us today.
 

JosyWales

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veteran said:
The 2300 days of Dan.8:13-14 aren't fulfilled yet either, so there's another deception with those who say they are already past history, especially by those who deny the Daniel 9 Scripture about the final "one week" period being for the end times to end this present world.

The end of the 2300 days period ends with Christ's future second coming. Only with Christ's second coming with the idea of the sanctuary (put for Christ's future Milennium Temple in Jerusalem) being cleansed will occur when Christ returns, and not before.

The 2300 days includes the time of the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel, and that is an event still yet to occur in Jerusalem, it's for the coming tribulation time Jesus mentioned in Matt.24 which relates to the 6 Seals of Revelation 6, and all that is specific for the last days prior to our Lord Jesus' second coming, which is still... yet future to us today.
Vet makes some good points.

Personally, I think that the 2300 days end with the resurrection of the 2 witnesses and the return of christ comes about 30 days after their death as shown in my chart, but the fact that these events and the 2300 days are connected to the end of the Apocalypse seems true to me.

I also agree that the 2300 Days includes the 'Abomination' in Daniel as does the 70 weeks.

I think the main point of contention with my chart is that I consider all the times listed in Daniel and Revelation to be literal and not to be reinterpreted as things other than what they say. I cannot get by the fact that if you take the 70 weeks as a literal 490 days and not years or anything else, how that relates to the days in Revelation that add up exactly to 2300 days. Some may disagree with my method of using months equalling 30 days and years equalling 365 1/4 days, but I think I provide enough Biblical support to back my thinking up in that respect.
 

veteran

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JosyWales said:
Vet makes some good points.

Personally, I think that the 2300 days end with the resurrection of the 2 witnesses and the return of christ comes about 30 days after their death as shown in my chart, but the fact that these events and the 2300 days are connected to the end of the Apocalypse seems true to me.

I also agree that the 2300 Days includes the 'Abomination' in Daniel as does the 70 weeks.

I think the main point of contention with my chart is that I consider all the times listed in Daniel and Revelation to be literal and not to be reinterpreted as things other than what they say. I cannot get by the fact that if you take the 70 weeks as a literal 490 days and not years or anything else, how that relates to the days in Revelation that add up exactly to 2300 days. Some may disagree with my method of using months equalling 30 days and years equalling 365 1/4 days, but I think I provide enough Biblical support to back my thinking up in that respect.
The event given there in Daniel are literal events, but they do include certain phrases and symbols that require understanding too. One is that the 70 weeks do... mean literal weeks of years (seven sevens), a total of 490 years. The history of the previous fulfillment of the 69 weeks assures us of that. It's the final period of the symbolic "one week" that is yet to be fulfilled, because it is specific to events for the end of this world just prior to Christ's second coming. It's that final "one week" period of Dan.9:27 that is in play per the Book of Revelation, and not the other previously fulfilled periods.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

"Et tu, Brute?" (Latin for "You, too, Brutus?") No, brother, the 2300 days HAVE been completed and fulfilled. It is for this reason primarily that we should perhaps include 1 and 2 Maccabees in the canon of Scripture. We have forgotten the exploits of those priests in purging Isra'el of the invaders and their false gods. It was a time of great persecution when Isra'el's future stood on the edge of a knife!

Make no mistake, however; these 2300 days are NOT the same time period AT ALL with the final Seven of Dani'el 9, and the last half of the final Seven has been postponed by Yeshua` Himself. Furthermore, the last half of the Final Seven is NOT the same as the "Tribulation" period, which was/is FAR longer than a mere seven years!

Both you and JosyWales need to remember that prophecy and its record are from GOD'S point of view and the years flow together for Him as the minutes of an hour flow together for us. They're over in a heartbeat or two, and then they're history! Consider that Dani'el 8 IS of the past for a moment: This single chapter of the Bible covers the time period from Belshazzar's third year to the purging of the Temple during the times of the Maccabees and his brothers, from 551 B.C. to a time shortly after 164 B.C., a span of 397 years or so! That's a HUGE amount of time! Here we are in 2013. Where were we as a people 397 years ago? What was going on in 1616 A.D?

Well, first off, the 1611 Bible commissioned by King James I was only five years old. On March 5, Nicolaus Copernicus' book De revolutionibus orbium coelestium is put on the banned book list of the RCC, and Galileo Galilei was meeting with Pope Paul V on March 11 to discuss his support for the Copernican theory for the solar system, Samuel de Champlain had just finished wintering with the Huron Indians in his last exploration of America, and in Frankfurt, Germany, the leader of the mob of the Fettmilch Uprising, an anti-Jewish pogrom, Vincenz Fettmilch was beheaded! There's been a "lot of water under the bridge" since then!

Let's look at the Maccabean history:

2 Macc. 9:1-10:9
9:1 About that time came Antiochus with dishonour out of the country of Persia
2 For he had entered the city called Persepolis, and went about to rob the temple, and to hold the city; whereupon the multitude running to defend themselves with their weapons put them to flight; and so it happened, that Antiochus being put to flight of the inhabitants returned with shame.
3 Now when he came to Ecbatane, news was brought him what had happened unto Nicanor and Timotheus.
4 Then swelling with anger. he thought to avenge upon the Jews the disgrace done unto him by those that made him flee. Therefore commanded he his chariotman to drive without ceasing, and to dispatch the journey, the judgment of God now following him. For he had spoken proudly in this sort, That he would come to Jerusalem and make it a common burying place of the Jews.
5 But the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, smote him with an incurable and invisible plague: or as soon as he had spoken these words, a pain of the bowels that was remediless came upon him, and sore torments of the inner parts;
6 And that most justly: for he had tormented other men's bowels with many and strange torments.
7 Howbeit he nothing at all ceased from his bragging, but still was filled with pride, breathing out fire in his rage against the Jews, and commanding to haste the journey: but it came to pass that he fell down from his chariot, carried violently; so that having a sore fall, all the members of his body were much pained.
8 And thus he that a little afore thought he might command the waves of the sea, (so proud was he beyond the condition of man) and weigh the high mountains in a balance, was now cast on the ground, and carried in an horselitter, shewing forth unto all the manifest power of God.
9 So that the worms rose up out of the body of this wicked man, and whiles he lived in sorrow and pain, his flesh fell away, and the filthiness of his smell was noisome to all his army.
10 And the man, that thought a little afore he could reach to the stars of heaven, no man could endure to carry for his intolerable stink.
11 Here therefore, being plagued, he began to leave off his great pride, and to come to the knowledge of himself by the scourge of God, his pain increasing every moment.
12 And when he himself could not abide his own smell, he said these words, It is meet to be subject unto God, and that a man that is mortal should not proudly think of himself if he were God.
13 This wicked person vowed also unto the Lord, who now no more would have mercy upon him, saying thus,
14 That the holy city (to the which he was going in haste to lay it even with the ground, and to make it a common buryingplace,) he would set at liberty:
15 And as touching the Jews, whom he had judged not worthy so much as to be buried, but to be cast out with their children to be devoured of the fowls and wild beasts, he would make them all equals to the citizens of Athens:
16 And the holy temple, which before he had spoiled, he would garnish with goodly gifts, and restore all the holy vessels with many more, and out of his own revenue defray the charges belonging to the sacrifices:
17 Yea, and that also he would become a Jew himself, and go through all the world that was inhabited, and declare the power of God.
18 But for all this his pains would not cease: for the just judgment of God was come upon him: therefore despairing of his health, he wrote unto the Jews the letter underwritten, containing the form of a supplication, after this manner:
19 Antiochus, king and governor, to the good Jews his citizens wisheth much joy, health, and prosperity:
20 If ye and your children fare well, and your affairs be to your contentment, I give very great thanks to God, having my hope in heaven.
21 As for me, I was weak, or else I would have remembered kindly your honour and good will returning out of Persia, and being taken with a grievous disease, I thought it necessary to care for the common safety of all:
22 Not distrusting mine health, but having great hope to escape this sickness.
23 But considering that even my father, at what time he led an army into the high countries. appointed a successor,
24 To the end that, if any thing fell out contrary to expectation, or if any tidings were brought that were grievous, they of the land, knowing to whom the state was left, might not be troubled:
25 Again, considering how that the princes that are borderers and neighbours unto my kingdom wait for opportunities, and expect what shall be the event. I have appointed my son Antiochus king, whom I often committed and commended unto many of you, when I went up into the high provinces; to whom I have written as followeth:
26 Therefore I pray and request you to remember the benefits that I have done unto you generally, and in special, and that every man will be still faithful to me and my son.
27 For I am persuaded that he understanding my mind will favourably and graciously yield to your desires.
28 Thus the murderer and blasphemer having suffered most grievously, as he entreated other men, so died he a miserable death in a strange country in the mountains.
29 And Philip, that was brought up with him, carried away his body, who also fearing the son of Antiochus went into Egypt to Ptolemeus Philometor.

10 Now Maccabeus and his company, the Lord guiding them, recovered the temple and the city:
2 But the altars which the heathen had built in the open street, and also the chapels, they pulled down.
3 And having cleansed the temple they made another altar, and striking stones they took fire out of them, and offered a sacrifice after two years, and set forth incense, and lights, and shewbread.

4 When that was done, they fell flat down, and besought the Lord that they might come no more into such troubles; but if they sinned any more against him, that he himself would chasten them with mercy, and that they might not be delivered unto the blasphemous and barbarous nations.
5 Now upon the same day that the strangers profaned the temple, on the very same day it was cleansed again, even the five and twentieth day of the same month, which is Casleu.
6 And they kept the eight days with gladness, as in the feast of the tabernacles, remembering that not long afore they had held the feast of the tabernacles, when as they wandered in the mountains and dens like beasts.
7 Therefore they bare branches, and fair boughs, and palms also, and sang psalms unto him that had given them good success in cleansing his place.
8 They ordained also by a common statute and decree, That every year those days should be kept of the whole nation of the Jews.
9 And this was the end of Antiochus, called Epiphanes.
KJV


This may not be technically "canonical," but it IS history! And, THIS is the cleansing of the Temple about which was spoken within the prophecy of Dani'el 8!

Now, if this indeed was the fulfillment of Dani'el 8:9-14 and 23-25, then it is NOT to be repeated! Prophecies are not "recycled"; otherwise, how could one tell whether a prophecy was indeed fulfilled or not?

There are two classes of prophecy in the Bible: those prophecies that have been fulfilled, and those prophecies that have NOT been fulfilled. This one falls into the first class and should NOT be a candidate for the second class at all!

We should "close the book" on this particular prophecy within Dani'el's book, and not re-open it! It falls into the same class as those prophecies about the Messiah which were fulfilled in His first coming - His first advent.
 

veteran

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Nope. The 2300 days are still yet to be fulfilled, and won't be until Christ returns. I can't help if you don't believe another temple is going to be built in Jerusalem to fulfill the abomination of desolation prophecy from the Book of Daniel. A lot of your brethren Jews do plan on building that temple, and already have the materials ready for building it today; they just are not privy to the revelations you've being given here from the words of the OT prophets in relation to Christ's Revelation to His Church.
 

JosyWales

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I think my chart above explains it nicely. No part of the 2300 days or the 70 weeks has occured yet. The relationship between the combination of the 70 weeks in Daniel and the times listed for the 5th - 7th Angels and the 3 1/2 days that 2 Witnesses lay dead in Revelation being equal to exactly 2300 days is too perfect to be a coincidence.
 

veteran

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JosyWales said:
I think my chart above explains it nicely. No part of the 2300 days or the 70 weeks has occured yet. The relationship between the combination of the 70 weeks in Daniel and the times listed for the 5th - 7th Angels and the 3 1/2 days that 2 Witnesses lay dead in Revelation being equal to exactly 2300 days is too perfect to be a coincidence.
You're starting to ramble brother.