Sin & Death

[Duckybill]

How important is the “Blood of Christ” to you?

Revelation 12:9-11 (NKJV)
[sup]9 [/sup]So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. [sup]10 [/sup]Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. [sup]11 [/sup]And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

It's much more important than you know.

 

[Alethos]

Hey Ducky,

If you dont mind, would you kindly PM these messages (if desired), as I prefer to keep this thread on the atonement for those less knowledgable than yourself. I believe we have the devil discussion going on elsewhere in the forum.

Thanks for your understanding in advance.

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

Hey Ducky,

If you dont mind, would you kindly PM these messages (if desired), as I prefer to keep this thread on the atonement for those less knowledgable than yourself. I believe we have the devil discussion going on elsewhere in the forum.

Thanks for your understanding in advance.

My comment was about THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB. That is the "atonement".

 

[Alethos]

Christ benefit by his own blood

Before we look at these converging lessons which harmonise in the life of the Lord Jesus Christ, let us consider the popular view of these matters.

Many believe that Jesus Christ allow believers to go free as he has taken their place on the cross. Imagine one was about to be beheaded and on the day the executioner arrives, some deep lover of this doomed rushes from the crowd, and says, "Behead me instead of him". This belief is called the substitution theory. In this instance the man accepts and the substitute is beheaded, and the other goes free.

So Christ's blood is shed, and we go free from our condemnation in death. There are many reasons why this is not Scriptural but here is one. The most important and remarkable reason why this is wrong teaching is that Christ himself is revealed as coming under the efficacy of his own death:

Heb. 13:20 "The God of peace, who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, THROUGH THE BLOOD OF THE EVERLASTING COVENANT".

This is stated even clearer in Heb. 9:12 "Neither by the blood of goats or calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us".

You will note the words “for us” are not in the original text.

"Neither by the blood of goats or calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption".

In Phil. 2:8 we the same idea "He became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him." The lesson here is that Jesus Christ benefited by his own death (through obedience) was exalted by His Father having submitted freely to His Will.

In other words Jesus exalted position in the Heavens was a result of his own blood. The atoning principles prescribed by God effected his elevated position in the Heavens, without such "blood", "body" and "death" he could not be redeemed to His Father.

But more importantly it was "through" his blood he was highly exalted.

 

[Duckybill]

Jesus shed His Blood for us, for our sins. Not for Himself. He was not sinful as you imply over and over.

 

[Duckybill]

Leviticus 17:11 (NKJV)
[sup]11 [/sup]For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.'

 

[Alethos]

What is the meaning of all this?

Are we prepared to open our minds to the revelation in the “blood”, “body” and “Death” of the Lord Jesus Christ?

The Law was given as a shadow institution of the things to come, all of which was fulfilled in the life and death of Christ. For the Scripture tells us in Gal 4:4 that Jesus was born under the Law that he might fulfil its requirements, upholding the entire ordinance’s in and through his life and death. Also compare 2 Co 5:19-21; Rom 8:3.

Jesus being born under the Law has dual application in that Jesus was redeemed as a man, he was also "redeemed" from the Law of Moses, and from the "curse" of that Law. Important to note the Law itself was not evil (it was holy, just and good Rom 7:12,13,14); however, the Law brought into focus and highlighted man's sin; so it came to stand, by metonymy, for sin, which God placed upon His son.

We stand in awe of the Master in this matter as all the men who went before him failed in this regard to uphold the requirements of the Law of Moses but also withstand the Law of Sin and Death within himself.

Remarkable!

And even before the Law Abel offered sacrifice at the gates of Eden; Noah offered acceptable sacrifice after the flood. Abraham is frequently exhibited in the same act and attitude, calling on the name of God in connection with the offering of the bodies of slain beasts.

The Israelites in Egypt, during the utter destruction visited the Egyptians, were to be spared, on condition of killing a lamb, and sprinkling the door-posts with its blood. In the law of Moses, we have the blood of bulls and goats all the way through.

The NT writings we are continually pointed back and told that all these things were shadows, figures beforehand of what God purposed to accomplish in relation to us in His own Son. So we look at the shadow first, and we ask, Why did God require sacrifice to be offered at the hands of those who approached Him? He has given His reason;

He never does anything without a reason; and in the Prophets, He often asks Israel to consider His reasons. Sometimes, it is a part of duty

We are called to understand the shadow as much as the substance of that shadow.

 

[Duckybill]

Jesus being born under the Law has dual application in that Jesus was redeemed as a man, he was also "redeemed" from the Law of Moses, and from the "curse" of that Law.

Jesus didn't need to be "redeemed". Again you try to make Him sinful. He is the Redeemer.

 

[Alethos]

Jesus didn't need to be "redeemed". Again you try to make Him sinful.[/color][/font] He is the Redeemer.

Who in the days of his flesh, when he (Jesus) had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him (God) that was able to save him (Jesus) from death, and was heard in that he feared; Heb 5:7

Fact: Jesus came in the same flesh
Fact: Jesus needed to be redeemed from that flesh
Fact: Jesus feared His Father who was the only One who could save him from death.

Jesus did need to be redeemed from the body of his death because in the days of his flesh he was under its condemnation.

If you dont believe Heb 5:7 to be truth, then under condemnation you will sadly stay!

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

Fact: Jesus came in the same flesh

Yes, Jesus/God came in the flesh. Even you admitted that Jesus is God.

Fact: Jesus needed to be redeemed from that flesh

Fact: Only sinners need to be redeemed. Jesus is the Redeemer.

Fact: Jesus feared His Father who was the only One who could save him from death.

He became a real man, but was still Jesus/God in the flesh. He emptied Himself of His Godly attributes.

Philippians 2:6-8 (NASB)
[sup]6 [/sup]who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, [sup]7 [/sup]but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. [sup]8 [/sup]Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Jesus did need to be redeemed from the body of his death because in the days of his flesh he was under its condemnation.

Only sinners need to be redeemed.

If you dont believe Heb 5:7 to be truth, then under condemnation you will sadly stay!

You don't make the rules. You don't even follow them.

 

[Alethos]

Only sinners need to be redeemed. Only sinners need to be redeemed.

2 Cor 5:21 Heb 4:15 :huh: Heb 5:7 Gal 4:4 Rom 8:3 :lol: They all speak Truth Ducky...read, understand and accept. I have. Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

2 Cor 5:21 Heb 4:15 :huh: Heb 5:7 Gal 4:4 Rom 8:3 :lol: They all speak Truth Ducky...read, understand and accept. I have. Alethos

I do not accept that Jesus is sinful. None of the Scriptures you quoted imply that Jesus had a sinful nature. Satan has you dancing like his puppet, trying to prove that Jesus was sinful. He is leading you to the everlasting fire.

 

[Alethos]

The Shadow Institution

Look, then, at Lev. 17: here we get a a bright shinning light which illuminates the work of the atonement. Lev 17:11, "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls (lives):for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul (life)."

And Lev 17:14, "For it (the blood) is the life of all flesh ... for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof."

We have covered in this thread how the life force is the blood and here it is employed as the ritual agent.

How does this help us?

By connecting it with another Divine principle illustrated at the beginning. The apostle Paul gives it to us plainly:

"The wages of sin is death". This is illustrated graphically back in Genesis.

"Because thou hast done this," that is sinned (disobeyed divine command) "in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, until thou return unto the ground: for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return".

This is death.

It was hear in the Garden that God passed the sentence of death and as a result we all die. However God did not leave it there, He could not possibly leave his creation is this crisis. To leave man to himself would not reflect His original work nor its intention. Num14:21 Hab 2:14

We find He is consistent throughout all Scripture and here in the beginning God showed forth His future intention. From now on He would deal with sin and condemnation. In doing so He provided a shadow institution, whereby man in his condemned position might still approach God acceptably, in hope of correcting his position in a far-off day.

God appointed that he should lay his hands on the head of an animal, confess his sins, and kill it and take its blood, and offer it to God. The poured out blood was the offered life. It was the ritual recognition and declaration by the worshipper that he was under condemnation, and had no right to his life. He acknowledged this in coming to God in this appointed way: and God was pleased.

 

[[email protected]]

I do not accept that Jesus is sinful. None of the Scriptures you quoted imply that Jesus had a sinful nature. Satan has you dancing like his puppet, trying to prove that Jesus was sinful. He is leading you to the everlasting fire.

Well said.

He (meaning the member that calls himself 'truth') is a dead man.

The problem with the dead is they don't know they're gone.

 

[Alethos]

Animal Blood could not save

Yet Paul says, "The blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin", while the blood of Christ can.

So here is another problem which we enquire into. The problem is this,

What was wrong with the blood of bulls and of goats that they could not take away sin, by contrast the shedding was apparently as much a confession of abandonment of sin on the part of the person, as the man who comes to God through the shed blood of Christ?

Paul provides the answer to this question in Rom. 3:21,22:

"The righteousness of God without the law is manifested in Christ". Verse 25, "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; to declare, I say, at this time His righteousness that He might be just and the justifier of him that believeth in Jesus".

Ponder this verse; you may like to read it a number of time s before it yields a complete explanation for you.

Firstly only God possesses “inherent” righteousness. If man is to possess righteousness that is, to be "declared" or justified to be made righteous, it can only be "manifested": "phaneroo" by God (Himself).

We find only two ways this being “made” right before God can take place

(1) by vindication (1 Tim 3:16), as completely righteous in oneself which could only be for Christ himself (John 8:46; 16:10; 1Peter 2:22; Rom 1:4)
(2) by forgiveness of sins, acquittal, and reconciliation which is the path open to everyone else through the covering name of Christ (Isa 53:11; 1 Co 1:30).

This comes through faith the acknowledging of sinfulness and the plea for forgiveness.

What stands out loud and clear?

FORGIVENESS! God places forgiveness in the foreground, "through God's forbearance", which is at variance with the substitution theory which is often taught today. This false idea blots out forgiveness by suggesting that the debt in the case is paid by another. It is not so!

God does forgive:

This is the most prominent feature in the Gospel of Jesus Christ

"Through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins."

"Be baptized for the remission of sins."

"God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."

Next we shall look at the conditions place on His forgiveness.

 

[Alethos]

Forgiveness is conditional:

We must first acknowledge that God does not offer forgiveness randomly. For instance a well known passage of scripture to us all in John 3:16 is clearly conditional:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Within this marvellous verse are some fundamental doctrines, which are plainly stated.

1. Gods redeeming work through Jesus is an act selfless love on God’s part

2. The work is His alone, it was in His mind from the beginning

3. Jesus is absolutely unique to this creation being the Son of God, the “only” begotten of the Father

4. The forgiveness and salvation is for mankind with no partiality.

5. The means of being made right before God can be only in Jesus and by no other way, it a matter of faith.

6. This sacrifice is effective for those past lives that sleep in the grave and those who go after Jesus. It points back in time and poitns forward.

7. The only alternative to this verse is to remain with the dead forever.

One must understand the above principles before God’s forgiveness is made possible.

Many Christians today believe they can declare they are “born again” and believe they are accepted as they are today. They can claim God’s forgiveness and presume He will forgive your sins regardless of how we live.

God has made forgiveness conditional and only grants forgiveness on those who fear Him and willing to yield to His conditions

If you are reading this and you ask “what are the conditions?

You would have asked a very wise question! The answer to this question is life and peace to those who find the answers.

But we still have a vital question to answer

Why was death of Christ the means by which forgiveness is granted when the death of animals was clearly stated?

Rom 3:21,22 leads us to the answer question "to declare the righteousness of God"

What is truly humbling and awe inspiring is how the Father was able to uphold His own Righteous Principles and His own Absolute Supremacy in the Heavens while at the same time provide forgiveness. God did not compromise once, not one divine moral principle in offering His son and forgiving our iniquity was comprimised. BUT, he requires us to recognise:

1. His forebearence

2. Our submission acknowledging His love, pain, purity of character and His Holiness

The condition is somewhat of a state of mind, humility to understand our sinful position before Him. Through prayer and moral living we a reverent of the cost He incurred with offering His beloved Son, in whom He was well pleased.

Therefore we now “look” at Christ where we find a perfect manifestation of Gods righteousness. We see the slaying of a lamb, not a animal under law, but and Son born of a woman born under the Law. An animal has no knowledge of sin, nor can it. The animal simply pointed forward to a lamb, in type who would take way the sin of the world.

We find then in all its ghastly detail the death of Christ took place "that God might be just" while being the One who justifies or forgives the transgressor. The sacrifice of animals could never fulfil God requirements in this regard, as a moral life was of necessity.

God choose the animal from the beginning in Eden to show forth “how” God would eventually deal with sin. In that one day He would provide himself a “Lamb” one without spot nor blemish.

The event of Abraham & Isaac is one of the greatest and most powerful explicit events that demonstrate the Father and the Son.

Abraham said to Isaac after asking him about the sacrifice...

"God shall provide Himself a lamb, my son", Abraham said to Isaac, these words would echo a future time Jesus would appear and when John would say "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world".

 

[Duckybill]

Animal Blood could not save

When they sacrificed animals they received forgiveness for their sins.

Leviticus 17:11 (NKJV)
[sup]11 [/sup]For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.'

 

[Alethos]

When they sacrificed animals they received forgiveness for their sins.

Leviticus 17:11 (NKJV)
[sup]11 [/sup]For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.'

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Knowing this Ducky, how was forgiveness to those under the law made possible?

Provide a verse to support your answer.

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

Heb 10:4

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Knowing this Ducky, how was forgiveness to those under the law made possible?

Provide a verse to support your answer.

I didn't say it took away the sin. I said they were forgiven.

Leviticus 4:20 (NKJV)
[sup]20 [/sup]And he shall do with the bull as he did with the bull as a sin offering; thus he shall do with it. So the priest shall make atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

 

[Alethos]

I didn't say it took away the sin. I said they were forgiven.

Leviticus 4:20 (NKJV)
[sup]20 [/sup]And he shall do with the bull as he did with the bull as a sin offering; thus he shall do with it. So the priest shall make atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

and the difference is?

see Rom 3:24,25