Sin-Nature Problem

[soul man]

Nothing that Israel was instructed to do in the Old Testament to be acceptable to God, ever destroyed (killed out) the sin nature.
They did not even know they had a sin nature, they knew they sinned but did not know they had a sin nature compelling them.
Abraham had great faith to do things for God, but as great as his faith was it could not rid him of the sin nature. A point should be made about nature; stability is found in nature, because nature cannot and does not change.
You will find great benefit in that understanding as you see the new Christ in you nature.
The sin nature seeks to controll and desires to be in total control of the individuals mind, Romans 7:17
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

I have had Christians asked me "do you think God has turned me over to a reprobate mind" my answer is simply "no."
A reprobate mind can only afflict those that have a sin nature. The question will come up why do Christians "sin," again the answer is simply because their minds were trained by the sin nature and against that nature they warred, even as a non-believer.
Very important for the believer to be renewed in mind at best they will not live under condemnation, because you will never perfect this life in the flesh.
We strive to be christ-like and allow the mind of Christ to freely express itself, but as long as you are in this body you will sin.
The pulls of your body and areas of the mind that remain unrenewed cause the believer to fail.
If you fast and walk by a refrigerator you will see how strong the body pulls can be.
If you desire to quit smoking, drinking or some other body pull, you will see how the mind and the body work together.
It is not a spirit thing as some suppose, it is mind given to body, nothing wrong with your spirit you are one with Christ.
Learning that and getting your mind renewed will help you live life as your father intended you to live, which is by your new Christ in you nature. We have a choice, before the cross there was no choice, they had to live with a nature they didn't even know existed. The only people that can be double-minded is believers, simply because they have a choice.

 

[bbyrd009]

didn't the Israelites have the instruction "love your neighbor" too? i'm not sure about this

before the cross there was no choice, they had to live with a nature they didn't even know existed.

wadr

 

[soul man]

didn't the Israelites have the instruction "love your neighbor" too? i'm not sure about this
wadr

When they failed to obey God they thought they had failed to obey the law of God, they had no idea what caused the disobedience.
No man did, that is a main point in OP to show until Paul we knew nothing about a nature.
They knew they sinned but didnt know why, Romans 7:14-15
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul describes the sin-nature for the first time in Romans 7.
He can look at it retrospectively because of standpoint of in Christ now.

 

[bbyrd009]

they had no idea what caused the disobedience.
No man did, that is a main point in OP to show until Paul we knew nothing about a nature.

so you're saying that the Israelites could not connect breaking the law with the consequences that reaped?
and that this was occluded until Paul?

 

[bbyrd009]

be interesting to see where this goes, all of my Quotes are really inferences, and i dunno when the consequences of "reap/sow" become apparent, really. i always assumed that was the def of "age of accountability" hmm

 

[soul man]

so you're saying that the Israelites could not connect breaking the law with the consequences that reaped?
and that this was occluded until Paul?

I'm saying it is not recorded as Paul recorded it, they knew they sinned, were sinners but know one knew (Jew or Gentile) they did what they did by their nature.
Not until it was revealed to Paul mankind had a sin nature.
That was part of the revelations he was given by our risen Lord.
Paul had many revelations none as far reaching as his revelation of the indwelling Christ as the life of the believer, Gal. 1:11-12, 15-16, & 2:20.
Which in turn constitutes a birthing (born again) by the new Christ in you nature brought about by the cross.

 

[bbyrd009]

no one knew they sinned bc they were inclined to, hmm.

 

[soul man]

no one knew they sinned bc they were inclined to, hmm.

Please don't miss quote

 

[bbyrd009]

Please don't miss quote

ah, didn't mean to do that, i find that rephrasing concepts often clarifies them.
You think that characterization is inaccurate somehow?

 

[soul man]

ah, didn't mean to do that, i find that rephrasing concepts often clarifies them.
You think that characterization is inaccurate somehow?

No problem I was trying to get what you were saying and didnt make since, got it now I post crazy stuff all the time ✌

 

[DPMartin]

you are definitely in error here:

"They did not even know they had a sin nature, they knew they sinned but did not know they had a sin nature compelling them."



Psa_51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

also God stated way before that:

Gen_8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

so yea the Israelites knew that their nature is contrary to God's, hence a "sin nature" as you like.


those who care to understand know, that one can not escape what is in their heart, therefore it must be replaced with what is in God's Heart.

 

[soul man]

you are definitely in error here:

"They did not even know they had a sin nature, they knew they sinned but did not know they had a sin nature compelling them."



Psa_51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

also God stated way before that:

Gen_8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

so yea the Israelites knew that their nature is contrary to God's, hence a "sin nature" as you like.


those who care to understand know, that one can not escape what is in their heart, therefore it must be replaced with what is in God's Heart.

Those scriptures do not say they knew they had a sin nature, all they knew was they sinned.
It is a matter of understanding, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, you are free to follow what you understand.

 

[DPMartin]

Those scriptures do not say they knew they had a sin nature, all they knew was they sinned.
It is a matter of understanding, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, you are free to follow what you understand.

what part of " for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth" don't you understand? the Lord their God tells them plainly man's nature. then of course if you don't believe what scripture says then you wouldn't know would you? and in your case it seems you don't know they knew though it plainly says in scripture that man's nature is the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth.

they were inform of their nature, what you are trying to convince yourself of here doesn't make sense. NT isn't new information NT is fulfillment of OT information.

 

[Godssrvr]

This teaching from the OP stems from "one naturism", which is being taught by a few increasingly popular teachers. One of them is Andrew Farley, who seems to have a good grasp of the gospel and teaches it well, but he and others are in error with this teaching of one nature for believers. I wonder if Farley knows John MacArthur teaches this one nature thing too?

It's true the believer has only the divine nature in spirit because it has been born of God and is incorruptible, but the mortal person was never changed. We still have the nature of sin within our mortal person. "Sin nature" would probably be more accurately termed as the "flesh nature", because it is only capable of unrighteousness before God. If we had no flesh nature, no one would ever sin because having only the divine nature would make sin impossible. Our nature as mortals will not ever change until we are "changed" by Him one day (which is very soon I believe). This one nature teaching is not supported by scripture, but only opinion.

Isaiah 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

1 Corinthians 15:42-52
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[soul man]

This teaching from the OP stems from "one naturism", which is being taught by a few increasingly popular teachers. One of them is Andrew Farley, who seems to have a good grasp of the gospel and teaches it well, but he and others are in error with this teaching of one nature for believers. I wonder if Farley knows John MacArthur teaches this one nature thing too?

It's true the believer has only the divine nature in spirit because it has been born of God and is incorruptible, but the mortal person was never changed. We still have the nature of sin within our mortal person. "Sin nature" would probably be more accurately termed as the "flesh nature", because it is only capable of unrighteousness before God. If we had no flesh nature, no one would ever sin because having only the divine nature would make sin impossible. Our nature as mortals will not ever change until we are "changed" by Him one day (which is very soon I believe). This one nature teaching is not supported by scripture, but only opinion.

Isaiah 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

1 Corinthians 15:42-52
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Matter of interpretation, you are seeing alot of what has happened to you but it takes some study to see the difference in natures and the believer totally free from the sin natue.
I dont think I have ever heard of Andrew F.
I will say there is a worldwide move of God where believers are seeing Christ as their life.
I'm not for sure I get your other quote about the natures.
I will hold to the fact that if the cross did not kill out the old man as scripture says, what pray tell will.

 

[Godssrvr]

I will hold to the fact that if the cross did not kill out the old man as scripture says, what pray tell will.

You have a misunderstanding of scripture, and when you decide to consider scripture rather than opinion, you will start to understand that you have indeed misunderstood.

You and others have misunderstood Romans 6:6

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

It is not the physical body that is destroyed. It is "the body of sin", which is the spirit which was of Adam! We are "baptized into His death" (vs3). This is a spiritual truth, not a physical truth correct? The "old man" (physical body of flesh) is still alive and well and is a reference to our mortal person. No need to be given this instruction from Paul in Ephesians if the old man has been "killed out". You (and this teaching) views only the spiritual truth, but ignoring the physical truth that our body has not been changed by the spiritual work completed by the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 4:22-24
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

 

[bbyrd009]

“One-Naturism” is the view held by. Calvinists(& Arminians)that a believer upon conversion, no longer has an old nature. He now possesses only a remnant of his old nature which, in time, eventually passes away. A mature believer should not feel the pull of the old. (sin)nature. one naturism - Google Search

hmm, interesting. if only it were automatically true, huh?

 

[soul man]

You have to work the word really hard to do away with the multitude of scripture that has the old man crucified in Christ.

Correction; that was to read you not I.

 

[Godssrvr]

I have to work the word really hard to do away with the multitude of scripture that has the old man crucified in Christ.

Corinthians 15:45-50
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we *shall* also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

John 3:5-6
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[DPMartin]

This teaching from the OP stems from "one naturism", which is being taught by a few increasingly popular teachers. One of them is Andrew Farley, who seems to have a good grasp of the gospel and teaches it well, but he and others are in error with this teaching of one nature for believers. I wonder if Farley knows John MacArthur teaches this one nature thing too?

It's true the believer has only the divine nature in spirit because it has been born of God and is incorruptible, but the mortal person was never changed. We still have the nature of sin within our mortal person. "Sin nature" would probably be more accurately termed as the "flesh nature", because it is only capable of unrighteousness before God. If we had no flesh nature, no one would ever sin because having only the divine nature would make sin impossible. Our nature as mortals will not ever change until we are "changed" by Him one day (which is very soon I believe). This one nature teaching is not supported by scripture, but only opinion.

Isaiah 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

1 Corinthians 15:42-52
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

absolutely correct most don't seem to get that, it seems to stem from a desire to justify one's own nature. you know the philosophy that there is good in human nature, that most want to believe. its a tickling of that most want to believe that they are basically good. you know, Disney magic dust.

the ignorant part of it is, if there was good in man's nature then God would require man's righteousness to save himself. and being born again wouldn't be required. but this "there is good in human nature" is another disregard for God's Judgement.

most don't understand that the Life Adam die from was the Life Jesus has restored us to, so its imposable for the life Adam and Eve were left with (ashes to ashes dust to dust as any other flesh) that we have received via the flesh, would meet that requirement at all.