In this case it would be physical death -- the separation of the soul and spirit from the body.
Sin Unto Death
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"To go from sanctified to unsanctified would be a contradiction"
No friend.
Once a christian always a christian!
Christians who fall away from Christ are still christians.
They become apostate. No longer under Gods grace.
Here is a logical reason once saved always saved is wrong.
Since God gives us free will, we have the ability to choose.
What you are teaching is the one whom God saves no longer has free will.
This is the conclusion when one cannot turn away from God and be lost.
God therefore in your doctrine makes His saved into robots.
He takes away the freewill of those He saves.
That goes against Gods love. God has always given us the choice to serve Him or reject Him.
1Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you.
Some were what? Lost wicked reprobates who practised sin.
Now listen to what happens when the lost become the saved,
1Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
The saved are what?
Sanctified and justified!
Are there lost that are sanctified?
No way!
To be sanctified is to be made Holy like God! To be made a saint!
Are the lost Holy?
1Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours.
Danthemailman believes: "To go from sanctified to unsanctified would be a contradiction in
Hebrews 10:10 and
Hebrews 10:14"
Hebrews 10:10
By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Christ once for all.
By Gods will He sanctifies those He saves.
Gods people have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Christ, and thus brought into fellowship with God.
The word sanctified has a slightly different meaning here.
Paul in his other writings, he teaches of sanctification as a process whereby the believer grows up, matures as a christian. In Christian conduct, character.
Here, sanctification is only dealing with making one a christian, not developing Christian character in one who is already a christian.
Christ's sacrifice was a single event...once for all...unlike the animal sacrifices the Jews performed under the old law.
The single event ie Christ sacrifice on the cross, is where men are made Holy ie sanctified.
In this verse sanctification puts one in Christ, received salvation.
The other aspect of sanctification is not discussed in this verse, that is
the Christian who is already saved being sanctified, (Holy living) daily through his growing, maturing moral character.
The once for all is Christ's once sacrifice on the cross. Not once for all referring to ones eternal life, sanctification.
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Once more the writer of Hebrews emphasizes the that it is a single sacrifice not a repetitious process that leads nowhere ie animal sacrifice.
His one offering has been able to accomplish that which the sacrifices of the old testament could never have brought about.
He hath perfected forever meaning, it is perpetual in nature.
This describes the important work of our Lord.
Through His one sacrifice, perfect sacrifice He has perfected us.
The old law with its animal sacrifices never took away the sins of man, thus imperfect.
But Christs sacrifice is able to cleanse us from all sin, thus making us sinlessly perfect as He is perfect.
Conclusion: once we are saved by the work of the cross of Christ, we are made perfect ie sinless.
But that is initial salvation. We will miss the mark occasionally and sin. Without repantance 1John 1:9, we will not remain perfectly sinless.
If we choose to continue to walk in sin and not repent, we will not continue to be sanctified ie Holy saved by Jesus' sacrifice.
So, you have misunderstood the passages bringing you to the wrong conclusion that if they were once sanctified it would be a contradiction if they lost their salvation.
Hebrews 10:26 proves those who have received the knowledge of the truth can sin willfully.
Because the latter verse says,
-...there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.
Are the unsaved going to no longer have a sacrifice for their sins?
Or are those who are already saved by that ONE sacrifice no longer have another sacrifice to save them?
Verse 29 proves theses are christians ....counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified and insulted the Spirit of grace?
You know any lost folks(non-christians) that was sanctified?
No friend.
Once a christian always a christian!
Christians who fall away from Christ are still christians.
They become apostate. No longer under Gods grace.
Here is a logical reason once saved always saved is wrong.
Since God gives us free will, we have the ability to choose.
What you are teaching is the one whom God saves no longer has free will.
This is the conclusion when one cannot turn away from God and be lost.
God therefore in your doctrine makes His saved into robots.
He takes away the freewill of those He saves.
That goes against Gods love. God has always given us the choice to serve Him or reject Him.
1Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you.
Some were what? Lost wicked reprobates who practised sin.
Now listen to what happens when the lost become the saved,
1Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
The saved are what?
Sanctified and justified!
Are there lost that are sanctified?
No way!
To be sanctified is to be made Holy like God! To be made a saint!
Are the lost Holy?
1Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours.
Danthemailman believes: "To go from sanctified to unsanctified would be a contradiction in
Hebrews 10:10 and
Hebrews 10:14"
Hebrews 10:10
By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Christ once for all.
By Gods will He sanctifies those He saves.
Gods people have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Christ, and thus brought into fellowship with God.
The word sanctified has a slightly different meaning here.
Paul in his other writings, he teaches of sanctification as a process whereby the believer grows up, matures as a christian. In Christian conduct, character.
Here, sanctification is only dealing with making one a christian, not developing Christian character in one who is already a christian.
Christ's sacrifice was a single event...once for all...unlike the animal sacrifices the Jews performed under the old law.
The single event ie Christ sacrifice on the cross, is where men are made Holy ie sanctified.
In this verse sanctification puts one in Christ, received salvation.
The other aspect of sanctification is not discussed in this verse, that is
the Christian who is already saved being sanctified, (Holy living) daily through his growing, maturing moral character.
The once for all is Christ's once sacrifice on the cross. Not once for all referring to ones eternal life, sanctification.
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Once more the writer of Hebrews emphasizes the that it is a single sacrifice not a repetitious process that leads nowhere ie animal sacrifice.
His one offering has been able to accomplish that which the sacrifices of the old testament could never have brought about.
He hath perfected forever meaning, it is perpetual in nature.
This describes the important work of our Lord.
Through His one sacrifice, perfect sacrifice He has perfected us.
The old law with its animal sacrifices never took away the sins of man, thus imperfect.
But Christs sacrifice is able to cleanse us from all sin, thus making us sinlessly perfect as He is perfect.
Conclusion: once we are saved by the work of the cross of Christ, we are made perfect ie sinless.
But that is initial salvation. We will miss the mark occasionally and sin. Without repantance 1John 1:9, we will not remain perfectly sinless.
If we choose to continue to walk in sin and not repent, we will not continue to be sanctified ie Holy saved by Jesus' sacrifice.
So, you have misunderstood the passages bringing you to the wrong conclusion that if they were once sanctified it would be a contradiction if they lost their salvation.
Hebrews 10:26 proves those who have received the knowledge of the truth can sin willfully.
Because the latter verse says,
-...there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.
Are the unsaved going to no longer have a sacrifice for their sins?
Or are those who are already saved by that ONE sacrifice no longer have another sacrifice to save them?
Verse 29 proves theses are christians ....counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified and insulted the Spirit of grace?
You know any lost folks(non-christians) that was sanctified?
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
I already thoroughly explained all of this to you in my previous post, but the truth just keeps going right over your head.
I already thoroughly explained all of this to you in my previous post, but the truth just keeps going right over your head.
Mental gymnastics Dan.
You're making these passages in
Hebrews fit your churches doctrine instead of letting the writer of Hebrews speak for himself.
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Physical death is seperation of the body and spirit
They did not die the sin unto death, No.
Excuse me sir, but Paul said if you see your brother sin a sin that does not lead to death
1. You can not see a person die spiritually
2. A person is born spiritually. Once they are born again, they have spiritual life. They can not die spiritually again. Otherwise, they do not have eternal life and God lied
3. You can only witness physical death. so Physical death is what is being spoken of here.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Some people jump to the conclusion that John is talking about believers committing sin that leads them to spiritual death, but that does not fit the context. 1 John 5:16 - If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly practice committing] sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
Sin Unto Death 1John 5:16-17
-If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
In the Bible death means:
1. Seperation of body and spirit, James 2:26.
2. Condition of one out of Christ, Ephesians 2:1.
3.banishment from the presence of God at judgement, Rev. 21:8 ; 2Thess. 1:9 ; Rom. 6:23.
Which of these is referred to in 1John 5:17?
It is not speaking of one out of Christ for John says all unrighteousness is sin,
And then draws a distinction between this and a particular sin(condition).
It is not speaking of physical death because there is no need for such instruction,
destiny is sealed at physical death.
It must be speaking of the final seperation from God at the judgment.
Many people make the mistake of making this refer to an act, one particular sin.
John speaks not of the nature of the sinful act, but of the condition of the one sinning.
I have the authority to pray for the one who confesses his sin, James 5:16,
-confess your trespasses to one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
But not for the brother who does not repent nor confess his sins.
Any sin unrepented, remains unforgiven and is therefore sin unto death.
1John 5:17
....I do not say he should pray about that....
-If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
In the Bible death means:
1. Seperation of body and spirit, James 2:26.
2. Condition of one out of Christ, Ephesians 2:1.
3.banishment from the presence of God at judgement, Rev. 21:8 ; 2Thess. 1:9 ; Rom. 6:23.
Which of these is referred to in 1John 5:17?
It is not speaking of one out of Christ for John says all unrighteousness is sin,
And then draws a distinction between this and a particular sin(condition).
It is not speaking of physical death because there is no need for such instruction,
destiny is sealed at physical death.
It must be speaking of the final seperation from God at the judgment.
Many people make the mistake of making this refer to an act, one particular sin.
John speaks not of the nature of the sinful act, but of the condition of the one sinning.
I have the authority to pray for the one who confesses his sin, James 5:16,
-confess your trespasses to one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
But not for the brother who does not repent nor confess his sins.
Any sin unrepented, remains unforgiven and is therefore sin unto death.
1John 5:17
....I do not say he should pray about that....
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Of SIN because they believe not on ME .
I said unto you that ye shall die IN YOUR SINS
for if you believe NOT that i am HE ye shall die in your sins .
COME TO THE GLORIOUS LORD JESUS and recieve the gift of eternal life . Now let all praise and thank the glorious LORD .
I said unto you that ye shall die IN YOUR SINS
for if you believe NOT that i am HE ye shall die in your sins .
COME TO THE GLORIOUS LORD JESUS and recieve the gift of eternal life . Now let all praise and thank the glorious LORD .
1John 5:18 Exegesis
-we know whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself and the wicked one does not touch him.
1John 3:6; 9 helps us better understand 1John 5:18.
-Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
-Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
One who is born of God does not let sin reign in his mortal body(keeps himself).
Romans 6:12
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey its lusts.
He does not live a life devoted to sin.
That is the thought of 1John 5:18.
How is this obtained and maintained?
The begotten one keepeth himself
We are to keep ourselves in the love of God,
Jude 21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
We are to head the word of God and keep it,
Luke 11:28
But He said, More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!
Can you see the righteous are responsible for keeping themselves from willful sin?
This proves the righteous can commit willful sin!
But what if one ceases to keep himself from willful sin?
Can a christian who does not repent stay saved? NO
John 8:51
Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.
1John 2:3-5
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
He who says, I know Him, and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.
But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him.
By this we know that we are in Him.
The righteous christian must repent of his sins or else become unrighteous and lost
Revelation 2:15-16
Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolatians, which thing I hate.
Repent(Of the sin of following false doctrine) or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them
With the sword of My mouth.
-we know whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself and the wicked one does not touch him.
1John 3:6; 9 helps us better understand 1John 5:18.
-Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
-Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
One who is born of God does not let sin reign in his mortal body(keeps himself).
Romans 6:12
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey its lusts.
He does not live a life devoted to sin.
That is the thought of 1John 5:18.
How is this obtained and maintained?
The begotten one keepeth himself
We are to keep ourselves in the love of God,
Jude 21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
We are to head the word of God and keep it,
Luke 11:28
But He said, More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!
Can you see the righteous are responsible for keeping themselves from willful sin?
This proves the righteous can commit willful sin!
But what if one ceases to keep himself from willful sin?
Can a christian who does not repent stay saved? NO
John 8:51
Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.
1John 2:3-5
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
He who says, I know Him, and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.
But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him.
By this we know that we are in Him.
The righteous christian must repent of his sins or else become unrighteous and lost
Revelation 2:15-16
Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolatians, which thing I hate.
Repent(Of the sin of following false doctrine) or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them
With the sword of My mouth.
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Flaws in your reasoning
1. It can not be physical death.
Flaw. Paul said if you see them commit this sin, and it does not lead to death. The only death you can personly witness is physical death. Non of the others fit.
2. Concerning, IT MUST BE FINAL DESTINATION.
We can not see this, Paul said if you SEE IT.
Really? That's a flaw to think of the sin unto death as spiritual death?
According to you I cannot see spiritual death, therefore John must be teaching physical death caused by sin.
I know your false belief of once saved always saved will not permit you to accept sins which can lead to spiritual death for the saved christian.
That is the main reason you will not except my position.
Since your position on christians losing their salvation is error.
You cannot believe there is such a thing as seeing spiritual death from the saved.
But you are mistaken, friend.
We are dealing with a member once faithful that have quit worshipping God.
Her parents found out and confronted her and her husband.
They admitted to being unfaithful.
The scriptures are clear that only the faithful in Christ can be saved,
Revelation 2:10
...Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Jesus taught in Revelation 2:10 that the faithful must remain faithfull until death.
This proves that since Jesus is warning us to remain faithfull, then logically the faithfull can become unfaithful.
If not then why the warning?
Danthemailman believes the righteous can never sin.
That is obviously not true by just this one verse in Revelation 2:10.
So, since I've seen with my own eyes sins that are unrepentant of some once faithful, righteous christians,
I know we can see sin unto death. We can observe spiritual death.
All arguments are true, or both arguments are true (imo). Because of our completion in spirit, and being completed in soul. Understanding is a powerful tool to knowing what it is we want to know. So thank you for giving your understanding. The understanding you have is a leading of the Spirit for each individual to be led into the things of God. It will be the leading of the Holy Spirit into all truth. Ty for your input.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
There we go. We get to the heart of the issue.
You can't see reality. Because you think eternal life is really conditional life. So it can;t be physical death to you. Even though there is no other explanation.
Thank you
By the way, I have had a few sins commits sins which led to death. And I have had a few friends who commits some sins that should have led to death But God spared them.
So I look at reality.
If it were physical death,
That would not violate any Biblical principle, on the subject of salvation.
It simply is not.
If it were it would not disprove that christians can die spiritually from their sins.
Salvation is conditional. Can you be saved without faith? Salvation never ceases to be conditional. It is based on your faith and continued faithfulness, Revelation 2:10.
Therefore salvation can be lost,
1John 3:1
Behold what manner of love God has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
John is speaking to saved christians.
Now listen to what John says to saved christians that hate their brother.
1John 3:15
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
John teaches that christians who hate their brethren have no eternal life!
That is plain to see.
Now you can agree with this simple to understand passage.
Or you can deny it. And use mental gymnastics to explain it away.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
This is not the topic. the topic is what did Paul mean.
He said if you SEE (visually) a person commit a sin which does not lead to death.
so lets stick to that why don.t we. Not trying to prove or disprove some other doctrine
Then it is not of grace, it is of works. And God and all the apostles have misled us.
Then you do not have eternal life. you have conditional life.
Your not saved, Your trying to be saved.
You begin in the spirit. but must perfect in the flesh (remember what Paul calls those who attempt this)
Yes, Lets listen to what John says about children of God
1 John 3:
Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
You have not proven John means seeing the sinner visually physically die.
Prove that with scripture.
I looked for the meanings of the word see in 1John 5:16
From Thayers Greek Lexicon
1. To see with the eyes
2. To see with the mind
3. To become acquainted with, experience
4. To take heed, beware
Now prove 1John 5:16-17 is visually seeing with the eyes a physical death.
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When the blood of Christ washes away all sins one is saved, not trying to be saved.
Acts 2:38.
Your salvation was not conditioned on your faith? Ephesians 2:8-9
The one who does not sin, does not sin because he keeps himself from sin. This does not mean he cannot literally sin.
]1John 5:18 Exegesis
-we know whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself and the wicked one does not touch him.
1John 3:6; 9 helps us better understand 1John 5:18.
-Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
-Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
One who is born of God does not let sin reign in his mortal body(keeps himself).
Romans 6:12
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey its lusts.
He does not live a life devoted to sin.
That is the thought of 1John 5:18.
How is this obtained and maintained?
The begotten one keepeth himself
We are to keep ourselves in the love of God,
Jude 21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
We are to head the word of God and keep it,
Luke 11:28
But He said, More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!
Can you see the righteous are responsible for keeping themselves from willful sin?
This proves the righteous can commit willful sin!
But what if one ceases to keep himself from willful sin?
Can a christian who does not repent stay saved? NO
John 8:51
Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.
1John 2:3-5
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
He who says, I know Him, and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.
But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him.
By this we know that we are in Him.
The righteous christian must repent of his sins or else become unrighteous and lost
Revelation 2:15-16
Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolatians, which thing I hate.
Repent(Of the sin of following false doctrine) or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them
With the sword of My mouth.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Can you SEE a person die spiritually - NO
can you SEE a person Die physically - YES
Pretty much end of discussion right there..
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
So when does God wash all of our sins? Is that not when we are born again>
Titus 3. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but BY HIS MERCY he saved us, by the WASHING!!!
Jesus, You are clean by the words I have spoken
washing of water by the word.
etc etc.
Your either saved or not saved there is no inbeltween
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