Sin Unto Death

[Titus]

So when does God wash all of our sins? Is that not when we are born again>

Titus 3. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but BY HIS MERCY he saved us, by the WASHING!!!

Jesus, You are clean by the words I have spoken

washing of water by the word.

etc etc.

Your either saved or not saved there is no inbeltween

Where did you get the idea I don't believe there is a specific time in the chridtians life that they are completely 100% saved? When Jesus' blood washes away all your sins, you cannot be anything but saved!

When dies the cleansing of sins occur?
What did Paul say when his sins were washed away?

Acts 22:16
And now why are you waiting ? Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

That is the washing, in Titus 3:5,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

This verse is not teaching no obedient works are involved in salvation.
Read the verse before verse 5,
Titus 3:4,
But when the kindness and the love of God out Savior toward man appeared,
Not by works....which we have done.

Did Jesus have love and mercy on us because we did works of righteousness?
No way! We both agree!
God had love and mercy on those who HATED Him!

That is what Titus is teaching!
He is not teaching no works are involved in Jesus' gospel.
He is teaching Jesus has love and mercy for you before you even made the decision to obey Him.

now you know what Titus 3:5 is really teaching.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Where did you get the idea I don't believe there is a specific time in the chridtians life that they are completely 100% saved? When Jesus' blood washes away all your sins, you cannot be anything but saved!

When you claim those people who you claim are saved, May not in the end be saved, Which means they were not really saved at all

When dies the cleansing of sins occur?
What did Paul say when his sins were washed away?

Acts 22:16
And now why are you waiting ? Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

That is the washing, in Titus 3:5,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

This verse is not teaching no obedient works are involved in salvation.
Read the verse before verse 5,
Titus 3:4,
But when the kindness and the love of God out Savior toward man appeared,
Not by works....which we have done.

Did Jesus have love and mercy on us because we did works of righteousness?
No way! We both agree!
God had love and mercy on those who HATED Him!

That is what Titus is teaching!
He is not teaching no works are involved in Jesus' gospel.
He is teaching Jesus has love and mercy for you before you even made the decision to obey Him.

now you know what Titus 3:5 is really teaching.

Ah. So you believe in washing by the hand of men, not by the hand of God.

So your a modern day jew. Only instead of physical circumcision, You want to add physical baptism.

 

[Titus]

When you claim those people who you claim are saved, May not in the end be saved, Which means they were not really saved at all



Ah. So you believe in washing by the hand of men, not by the hand of God.

So your a modern day jew. Only instead of physical circumcision, You want to add physical baptism.

I never claimed that! Why would I? I don't believe it!
When a person obeys the gospel, they are saved period.
When Paul obeyed the gospel in Acts 9 he had ALL his sins washed away.
HE WAS SAVED!
Now if Paul would have left Jesus and thought, "I've had enough of this Jesus".
Then God by His grace gave us freewill. And God is not going to save someone who doesn't want anymore to do with God. Otherwise we have no freewill.

 

[Titus]

When you claim those people who you claim are saved, May not in the end be saved, Which means they were not really saved at all



Ah. So you believe in washing by the hand of men, not by the hand of God.


So your a modern day jew. Only instead of physical circumcision, You want to add physical baptism.

No, Jesus ended the Jews religion, Hebrews 7:12:13
For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of law.
For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe, Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood.
17 for He testifies You(Jesus) are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Change of law. Change of High Priest. We serve the law of Christ.
Under Jesus gospel, He commands baptism not me!
Matthew 28:19 ; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2:38 ; 1Peter 3:20-21.

That washing in Tius 3:5,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

Is God washing our sins away with His blood! I'm not washing away my sins, Jesus is!
God washes away our sins just like Paul. In baptism, is where God works His power on us.
The washing of sins in Baptism is done by God not men. Baptism is His work!
Colossians 2:12
Buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God who raised Him from the dead.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I never claimed that! Why would I? I don't believe it!
When a person obeys the gospel, they are saved period.
When Paul obeyed the gospel in Acts 9 he had ALL his sins washed away.
HE WAS SAVED!
Now if Paul would have left Jesus and thought, "I've had enough of this Jesus".
Then God by His grace gave us freewill. And God is not going to save someone who doesn't want anymore to do with God. Otherwise we have no freewill.

then paul was never saved.

As John said, they were never of us, if they were of us, they would have remained, but they departed (in unbelief as an antichrist) to prove they were never of us.

Obeying the gospel is simply this.

As Moses lifted up the serpent. so must the son of man be raised that whoever believes in him will never die, but live forever (literal translation) for God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes will never die, but has everlasting (eternal) life. he who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already.

Obeying the gospel is when God comes, saying yes., in true living faith

Saying you merly believe is not enough, it takes true repentance and true saving faith. Nothing else matters.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

then paul was never saved.

As John said, they were never of us, if they were of us, they would have remained, but they departed (in unbelief as an antichrist) to prove they were never of us.

Obeying the gospel is simply this.

As Moses lifted up the serpent. so must the son of man be raised that whoever believes in him will never die, but live forever (literal translation) for God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes will never die, but has everlasting (eternal) life. he who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already.

Obeying the gospel is when God comes, saying yes., in true living faith

Saying you merly believe is not enough, it takes true repentance and true saving faith. Nothing else matters.

1. No one was ever saved by the law
2. No one was ever saved by phsical circumcision
3. No one was ever saved by any of the traditions
4. No one was ever saved by moral obedience to the law

The law symbolized as a teaching aid, to lead to Christ (gal 3) It is the spiritual aspect of what these things represent that actually do the washing and saving

Its no different in the NT

No one is saved because they are immersed in water by a pastor
No one is saved because they keep the moral law
No one is saved because they follow the traditions of the church.

 

[Titus]

then paul was never saved.

As John said, they were never of us, if they were of us, they would have remained, but they departed (in unbelief as an antichrist) to prove they were never of us.

Obeying the gospel is simply this.

As Moses lifted up the serpent. so must the son of man be raised that whoever believes in him will never die, but live forever (literal translation) for God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes will never die, but has everlasting (eternal) life. he who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already.

Obeying the gospel is when God comes, saying yes., in true living faith

Saying you merly believe is not enough, it takes true repentance and true saving faith. Nothing else matters.

Where did you give a scriptural response to your claim that John is teaching seeing physical death? Prove your claim.

If a person is saved by the gospel today and dies immediately after he is saved, he will be in heaven.
If a person is saved by the gospel today and lives, but 10 years from now sins and does not repent, 1John 1:9, he will die in his sins.

You can claim if OSAS is not true then they were never saved all you want.
But your reasoning is flawed. I have already proven your logic is flawed.
But most importantly the Bible does not teach christian cannot lose their salvation.

You never address the freewill issue. If I cannot leave God. Then God has taken my ability to choose right from wrong. If I cannot choose to leave God and become unfaithful, then why all the warnings?

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

Must endure.
If a christian cannot sin as you claim Eternally Grateful, then why must he endure temptation? No need to endure If he cannot give into temptation and sin.

Revelation 2:10
Be faithfull until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Why the warning to not sin if christians cannot sin?
Why the warning to be faithful if the saved cannot lose their salvation?

Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness.
If christians cannot leave, walk away from the Lord, why does faithfulness even need to be taught?

Hebrews 10:23
Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
Why the admonition to hold fast without wavering if christians cannot fall away from Jesus?
Cannot leave the Lord? Cannot sin?

 

[Titus]

1. No one was ever saved by the law
2. No one was ever saved by phsical circumcision
3. No one was ever saved by any of the traditions
4. No one was ever saved by moral obedience to the law

The law symbolized as a teaching aid, to lead to Christ (gal 3) It is the spiritual aspect of what these things represent that actually do the washing and saving

Its no different in the NT

No one is saved because they are immersed in water by a pastor
No one is saved because they keep the moral law
No one is saved because they follow the traditions of the church.

I do not teach anyone was ever saved by anything but the blood of Jesus Christ.

Here is all the ways involved in coming into contact with the Blood of Christ.

Salvation by faith only? James 2:24
Plainly contradicts scripture!

Nothing alone saves us!
Saved by,
God, 1Timothy 2:3-4
Christ, Matthew 18:11
Grace, Ephesians 2:8
Preaching, 1Corinthians 1:21
The gospel, 1Corinthians 15:1-4
Baptism, 1Peter 3:21

Galatians 3:26-27
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

If saved by faith alone, then we are saved without the blood of Christ!

 

[mailmandan]

then paul was never saved.

As John said, they were never of us, if they were of us, they would have remained, but they departed (in unbelief as an antichrist) to prove they were never of us.

Obeying the gospel is simply this.

As Moses lifted up the serpent. so must the son of man be raised that whoever believes in him will never die, but live forever (literal translation) for God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes will never die, but has everlasting (eternal) life. he who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already.

Obeying the gospel is when God comes, saying yes., in true living faith

Saying you merly believe is not enough, it takes true repentance and true saving faith. Nothing else matters.

Yes. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 -
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

Read

 

[Titus]

Yes. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 -
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”

Read

You just contradicted your whole faith and no obedience gospel ie sola fide.
With all these contradictions it should be obvious you are following a doctrine of men.

Make up your mind Danthemailman, either obedience is required ie obey commandments 1John 3:23-24
Or there is no obedience to the gospel to be saved, as you sometimes teach when you're not teaching the opposite!
Obey is to work, Hebrews 5:8-9.

Acts 10:35
But in ever nation he that feareth Him and worketh righteousness, is accepted by Him.

 

[mailmandan]

You just contradicted your whole faith and no obedience gospel ie sola fide.
With all these contradictions it should be obvious you are following a doctrine of men.

Make up your mind Danthemailman, either obedience is required ie obey commandments 1John 3:23-24
Or there is no obedience to the gospel to be saved, as you sometimes teach when you're not teaching the opposite!
Obey is to work, Hebrews 5:8-9.

Acts 10:35
But in ever nation he that feareth Him and worketh righteousness, is accepted by Him.

No contradiction at all. There is a difference between the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel and multiple acts of obedience/works which “follow” choosing to believe the gospel. Just like there is a difference between obeying God’s will in order to become saved (John 6:40) and I’ll be in God’s well after we have been saying. (1 Thessalonians 5:14-18) Since you subscribe to works salvation, it’s no surprise you don’t understand the difference.

In regards to 1 John 3:24-24, We are saved the moment we believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) “prior to accomplishing any works which follow” and the love of God is poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5) We love Him because he first loved us. (1 John 4:19)

In regards to Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I often hear works-salvationists cite this verse to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics, Campbellites and Mormons.

*Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) In either sense, only believers obey Him.

*Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

In regards to Acts 10:35, Peter prefaced his message with a frank admission. Up to now he had believed that God's favor was limited to the nation of Israel. Now he realized that God did not respect a man's person because of his nationality. Fearing God and working righteousness is the result of an already existing faith. We are not saved by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5), but works of righteousness are the fruit of salvation, yet not the means of obtaining it. Peter is giving a description of a believer/Christian and is not teaching salvation by works of righteousness, in contradiction to Paul.

So choosing to believe the gospel is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works as you seem to imply. Do you attend the church of Christ?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Where did you give a scriptural response to your claim that John is teaching seeing physical death? Prove your claim.

I already did by using Johns words himself.

If you disagree, you have that right.

I am not playing a kids game of someone did not do something he did. to try to point an argument your way

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I do not teach anyone was ever saved by anything but the blood of Jesus Christ.

Plus Baptism?

 

[Titus]

Dan and EG,
You both contradict yourselves by claiming no obedience which is works every time you say you obey the gospel. Sad, you both are under strong delusion.

) Since you subscribe to works salvation

We are saved by works. Could you make your faith alone and zero works salvation any more obvious it is unbiblical heresy?

John 6:28-29
Then they said to Him, what shall we do, that we may work the works of God?

Works of God save us. That is the BIBLICAL Gospel!

-29 Jesus answered and said to them,
This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent

Now, you want to hold to your heresy false gospel of No Works salvation?

YOU THINK YOU CAN BE SAVED WITHOUT GOD!!!

His work saves us. Therefore His gospel is a works based salvation!
John 17:4
I have glorified You on earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.

I Love you both. You cannot be saved without works.

 

[mailmandan]

Dan and EG,
You both contradict yourselves by claiming no obedience which is works every time you say you obey the gospel. Sad, you both are under strong delusion.

We are saved by works. Could you make your faith alone and zero works salvation any more obvious it is unbiblical heresy?

John 6:28-29
Then they said to Him, what shall we do, that we may work the works of God?

Works of God save us. That is the BIBLICAL Gospel!

-29 Jesus answered and said to them,
This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent

Now, you want to hold to your heresy false gospel of No Works salvation?

YOU THINK YOU CAN BE SAVED WITHOUT GOD!!!

His work saves us. Therefore His gospel is a works based salvation!
John 17:4
I have glorified You on earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.

I Love you both. You cannot be saved without works.

No contradictions. You just don’t get it and it’s you who is under strong delusion. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Jesus' play on words here in John 6:29 when he said, "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?"

So Jesus was not saying that believing is just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works or else it would contradict Ephesians 2:8,9. *Note the distinction between faith "and" works - "saved through faith, not works."

The gospel is the “good news” of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES. (Romans 1:16) To “believe” the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

Plus Baptism?

Of course. Titus teaches faith + works (for salvation) any way you slice it.

 

[Titus]

No contradictions. You just don’t get it and it’s you who is under strong delusion. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Jesus' play on words here in John 6:29 when he said, "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?"

So Jesus was not saying that believing is just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works or else it would contradict Ephesians 2:8,9. *Note the distinction between faith "and" works - "saved through faith, not works."

The gospel is the “good news” of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES. (Romans 1:16) To “believe” the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 and James 2:24 contradict themselves in your confused, contradictory faith and zero works salvation.

Do you not know the Ephesians were not saved by faith only?
They were saved by Grace through faith.
1 Grace +1 Faith + 1 obedience

The conversion of the Ephesians is recorded in Acts 19:1-7
Not only did Paul not preach to them faith onlyism.
Paul commanded them to be baptized again! Into Jesus' gospel, Mark 16:15-16.

They had already been baptized into John's baptism. They had to be baptized twice!
They did not receive the Holy Spirit when they had faith only in Jesus.
They only received the Holy Spirit after they were water baptized!
Proving you do not get the Holy Spirit when you believe only.

We are saved by works:
Acts 5:38-39
And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing.
But if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it--lest you even be found to fight against it.

You put all your faith in salvation in your faith only.

I have put my faith and trust and obedience in the works of God,
Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord God,
That I may declare all Your works.

 

[mailmandan]

Ephesians 2:8-9 and James 2:24 contradict themselves in your confused, contradictory faith and zero works salvation.

Paul clearly states saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS and in James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) *Perfect Harmony*

Do you not know the Ephesians were not saved by faith only?
They were saved by Grace through faith.
1 Grace +1 Faith + 1 obedience

The Ephesians were saved by grace (God’s part) through faith (their part) not works. You “added” + obedience, which is works. Don’t confuse salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone with what James refers to as “faith only” - empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - “barren of works” (James 2:14-17)

The conversion of the Ephesians is recorded in Acts 19:1-7
Not only did Paul not preach to them faith onlyism.
Paul commanded them to be baptized again! Into Jesus' gospel, Mark 16:15-16.

Paul clearly taught salvation by grace through faith, not works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and what is the common denominator? So it’s salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone. Did Jesus preach a different gospel than Paul? (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:17; 15:1-4)

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

They had already been baptized into John's baptism. They had to be baptized twice! They did not receive the Holy Spirit when they had faith only in Jesus.
They only received the Holy Spirit after they were water baptized!
Proving you do not get the Holy Spirit when you believe only.

In Acts 19:2, Paul asked these disciples of John if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed and their answer in verses 2-3 reveals that they had not yet believed in Christ unto salvation. They had not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit and they received the baptism of John, but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving belief in Christ, they were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit which is the exception, not the rule.

We are saved by works:

Absolutely false! (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). You are on dangerous ground.

Acts 5:38-39
And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing.
But if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it--lest you even be found to fight against it.

Oh the irony.

You put all your faith in salvation in your faith only.

I put all my faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. I am trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. Wish I could say the same for you.

I have put my faith and trust and obedience in the works of God,
Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord God,
That I may declare all Your works.

Bottom line - you trust in works for salvation and not in Christ alone. You teach a “works based” false gospel.

I don’t recall you ever answering my question: Where do you attend church?

 

[Titus]

You have shown your doctrine to be inconsistent, and contradictory,

No contradiction at all. There is a difference between the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel

Above quote, you teach, include obedience in salvation.
Next quote, you contradict yourself and condemn obedience and exclude obedience from the gospel, quote below,

The Ephesians were saved by grace (God’s part) through faith (their part) not works. You “added” + obedience, which is works

Clear contradiction! Inconsistent!
You just admitted obedience is works.

YOU ADDED OBEDIENCE! THEN YOU REMOVED OBEDIENCE!

Your false gospel adds obedience when it is convenient for you.
Then you remove it when it is not convenient!

I know God has given you the intelligence to see your error.
You are making yourself look foolish, friend.

You teach no works in Jesus' gospel, sometimes then teach obedient works to be saved at other times.
No way, I can be convinced by your unstable reasoning you have the truth.

James 1:8
He is a double minded man unstable in all his ways.

Salvation is cooperation between God and man.
Gods grace, Gods part
Man's obedient faith, Mans part

Without man cooperating with Gods terms, no salvation will be given by God as a free gift.
Can anyone be saved if they do not meet the condition to believe? No

We are saved by Jesus' work on the cross! Saved by works of God! You say,

Absolutely false! (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). You are on dangerous ground.

Fine, Danthemailman, if you want to believe you can be saved without God working His power on you, you are without hope.
John 17:4
I have glorified You on earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.

Danthemailman's gospel is no works salvation.
Saved without the work of Jesus Christ.
Doctrines of demons.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Dan and EG,
You both contradict yourselves by claiming no obedience which is works every time you say you obey the gospel. Sad, you both are under strong delusion.

Sorry my friend, We are not under delusion, We are under the knowledge that no one is saved under any circumstance by works. No work you could ever possibly do will erase 1 sin, let alone the many sins you have charged to your account.

As paul said, it is of grace. not work. otherwise grace is no longer grace.

If anyone us under a delusion. It is the person who think grace and works can co-exist as requirements for salvation. When they can not.