Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[1stCenturyLady]

It depends on if you are committing it in unbelief, or not.

Explain how a believer is off the hook?

Galatians 5:17
17For the cravings of the lower nature are opposed to those of the Spirit, and the cravings of the Spirit are opposed to those of the lower nature; because these are antagonistic to each other, so that you cannot do everything to which you are inclined.

This is not true for a born again of the Spirit believer. Galatians 5:17 is the same as Romans 7:25 and neither is born again. The Spirit in Galatians 5:17 is actually our spirit, meaning mind. It is a publisher's error.

Willful sin signifies unbelief. For them all sin is unto death. For the believer, only the sin of unbelief expressed in a choice to return to willful sin is unto death. And of course, the great debate goes on as to whether or not a true born again believer can return to unbelief.

At least you do not believe in the heresy of OSAS. Good for you, though it sounded like it in what my first post above responded to. I'd still like to know what you were saying.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

but can we achieve this?

remember, John says if we say we have no sin we decieve ourselves and there is no truth in us.

so if it can be achieved, why would john say if even himself said he has achieved it he is decieved?

Read my OP again #1, I've addressed 1 John 1 which you seem to be ignorant of. Justifying your sin with 1 John 1:8 is from the heresies you've been taught. The gospel is the "power of God," and 1 John 3:9 contradicts your misinterpretation of 1 John 1:8 as your "go to" verse that will send you to hell.

EG, by letting 1 John 1:8 be a verse you live your life by, you are NOT reckoning yourself free from sin, lest you sin. You are not obeying Paul's warning and Proverbs 23:7 that what a man thinks in his heart, so is he." I will repeat what I said in #1, the OP. So listen with your heart.

Both Paul and Peter taught we are dead to sin. Romans 6:5-7, 22; 1 Peter 2:24. John taught we cannot sin, 1 John 3:9; 1 John 5:18. John has also been misquoted with 1 John 1:8 which contradicts 1 John 3:9, and 1 John 1:9 that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. Those who want to justify their sin twist these scriptures backwards and believe 1 John 1:8 over 1 John 3:9, and 1 John 1:9. Look at 1 John 2:4 if you want to know what lie 1 John 1:8 is really saying, 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 1 is written with a Semitic writing style. Verse 5 through 10 is a contrast between Light vs. Darkness. 1 John 1:6, 8 and 10 are all unsaved darkness. 1 John 1:9 is how to become a born again Christian ONCE, not over and over as you are a slave to sin. It is the same as Peter's Acts 2:38 "REPENT, ... and you will be given the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[CrowCross]

and a car is an automobile.

You are just presenting a synonym and not a definition. Now if I said a car is a motorized vehicle capable of transporting people from one place to another I would be giving a definition. (albeit incomplete) The same can be said of grace, while it is initially unmerited (the humble receive more) it is actually the POWER of God to obey Him and walk in His ways. That is a definition

Using the bible...show me this definition.

 

[shepherdsword]

Using the bible...show me this definition.

1 Co 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

 

[CrowCross]

1 Co 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

The enabling power of Grace is salvation.
Paul labored in his salvation, the un-merited gift from God that is with all christians.

 

[shepherdsword]

The enabling power of Grace is salvation.
Paul labored in his salvation, the un-merited gift from God that is with all christians.

Only the initial infusion of grace is unmerited. There is an impartation of grace that is merited by humility:

Jas 4:6
But he giveth MORE grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

 

[CrowCross]

Only the initial infusion of grace is unmerited. There is an impartation of grace that is merited by humility:

Jas 4:6
But he giveth MORE grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

As one commentary outs it....God’s grace is greater than the sinful desires, envy, and divided loyalties exposed in James 4:1–5. He does not abandon His people in their failure but supplies mercy, forgiveness, and strength for repentance and obedience. Salvation is received by grace rather than human merit, and believers continue to depend on that same grace for daily holiness.

Grace is a fine line...I try not to under step it but you seem to overstep it.

 

[shepherdsword]

As one commentary puts it....

I'll stick with what the bible says....He gives MORE grace to the humble.

 

[CrowCross]

I'll stick with what the bible says....He gives MORE grace to the humble.
View attachment 91090

Then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Episkopos]

Then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Better to that than to progress in understanding, right?

 

[ProDeo]

1 Co 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

I looked up in my Bible software the combination of grace + power and it returned zero matches.

I think grace is the initiative of the Father to send the Son to earth to take away the sins of the world by the ultimate sign of His love for His fallen creation, sacrificing a part of Himself by the Son, willing to obey the Father.

What a powerful message, why would anyone reject the declaration of love.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I'm sorry, but I just have to ask.

Have you personally achieved this sinless perfection of which you speak? Or know anyone other than Christ who has?

If so, was it sustainable?

I've had some really great days in the Lord, have been graced with much victory over sin, and fought my way upon my knees to other victories that didn't come so easily. But this idea of sinless perfection. It's a precious notion for sure, but achievable?

You said, "sinless perfection of which I speak"? Didn't you understand the OP that I do not teach sinless perfection, as they are in reality two different categories of purity? Righteousness and holiness are those two different levels. Freedom from sin is sinlessness called righteousness, but it only applies to the worst type of sin - lawlessness, 1 John 3. Jesus takes away our sins of lawlessness when we are born again of the Spirit. Once our sin nature has been cleansed we cannot commit lawlessness anymore, because it is no longer in our nature to do so. But perfection, also called holiness is a whole other level and has to do with the maturity of all the fruit of the Spirit. Once completely mature in Christ we are then holy. Then and only then can the two words be put together as sinless perfection. No one who wants to see Jesus should ever stop the process of His glorification in us according to Hebrews 12:14.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

But hey, what do I know. I'm not sinless like some in this crowd claim to be. And as much as I wish it were otherwise, knowing just what I'm capable of, and not diluding myself to the contrary, is very good thing.

It is only "a good thing" if you confess that you are a sinner and ask Jesus to give you His Holy Spirit that can give you freedom from your sin. I was like you for the first 30 years of my life going to church. The problem was, I was not saved. So, it is NOT a good thing for you if you stay a sinner.

 

[shepherdsword]

I looked up in my Bible software the combination of grace + power and it returned zero matches.

I think grace is the initiative of the Father to send the Son to earth to take away the sins of the world by the ultimate sign of His love for His fallen creation, sacrificing a part of Himself by the Son, willing to obey the Father.

What a powerful message, why would anyone reject the declaration of love.

I can't find any place where grace is called the initiative of the Father...can you? You hold me to an exact wording but then turn around and use your own terminology that is not in the scripture.

1 Co 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Tells us very plainly that Paul labored by God's grace. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand and equate it with God's enabling power.

 

[Episkopos]

You said, "sinless perfection of which I speak"? Didn't you understand the OP that I do not teach sinless perfection, as they are in reality two different categories of purity? Righteousness and holiness are those two different levels. Freedom from sin is sinlessness called righteousness, but it only applies to the worst type of sin - lawlessness, 1 John 3. Jesus takes away our sins of lawlessness when we are born again of the Spirit. Once our sin nature has been cleansed we cannot commit lawlessness anymore, because it is no longer in our nature to do so. But perfection, also called holiness is a whole other level and has to do with the maturity of all the fruit of the Spirit. Once completely mature in Christ we are then holy.

I have to differ with you here my sister. Holiness is not our attainment but an entrance into Christ to be where He is to live and walk in God's very presence. It is His presence that makes us holy...even in our immaturity.

Notice this...

And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein. Is 35:8

Then and only then can the two words be put together as sinless perfection. No one who wants to see Jesus should ever stop the process of His glorification in us according to Hebrews 12:14.

There is a big difference between purity and maturity. The pure can fall from grace and go in and out of the Spirit until maturity allows people to REMAIN in holiness. Such is the training of God in Christ.

SO whether present or absent from the Lord (in Zion) we do all to be at least accepted of Him.

 

[Lizbeth]

It is only "a good thing" if you confess that you are a sinner and ask Jesus to give you His Holy Spirit that can give you freedom from your sin. I was like you for the first 30 years of my life going to church. The problem was, I was not saved. So, it is NOT a good thing for you if you stay a sinner.

Knowing what one is capable of (in the flesh) is not the same thing as committing the sin. As Paul said, "In me, that is in my flesh, dwells no good thing." I consider that coming to realize this is part of growing in the Lord.

And since we are warned against wilfully sinning after knowing the Lord, it must be possible for a born again believer to commit wilful sins if they choose to do so.

 

[CrowCross]

Better to that than to progress in understanding, right?

right.

 

[ProDeo]

I can't find any place where grace is called the initiative of the Father...can you? You hold me to an exact wording but then turn around and use your own terminology that is not in the scripture.

1 Co 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Tells us very plainly that Paul labored by God's grace. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand and equate it with God's enabling power.

Paul - For by grace you have been saved through faith

What are we saved from (hell) and by Whom (Jesus) = grace.

Grace -> clemency -> pardon

So, saving grace (Jesus) was with Paul.

You may call grace power, but you won't find the word combination in Scripture, grace is much more, what we are saved from to begin with.

 

[amigo de christo]

I understand perfectly what you are saying, and I agree. Thus the reason for this OP. And what I named it. I've heard so many warnings from people who are actually taught we will commit sins until we die, describing a slave to sin, certainly not being freed from sin, and thus the Law also which is not on the outside engraved on stone, but on our inside and are now a part of the center of our being.

so let me ask you . IS calling GOD a liar or saying its okay to call GOD a liar seem in any way to you
as SINLESS . even if they talk about living a life free of sin . I mean talks about holiness , righteous living
doing good to others , OH it would be a good thing , BUT NOT IF YOU CALL GOD A LIAR or even dare
to imply its okay to call GOD a liar . SO y ou need to know that . seeing you seem to like what epi says .
The dude wont even preach the dire need to believe on JESUS to an athiest .
And when i went and did so , WELL mr sin free holy and righteous man epi , called me a reli gious extremist .
SO i dont think them works gonna be saving him or any one else sister .
I believe in the power of GOD and in holy and righteous living that the SPIRIT does empower us to do .
I JUST DONT BELIEVE in men who call GOD a liar and imply its okay to do so
WHo try and preach these so called righteous acts and holy living .
cause DO I NEED to remind us all again , IT AINT VERY RIGHTEOUS and IT AINT VERY HOLY
TO CALL GOD A LIAR . not at all . OH i say , and say i do , NOT AT ALL .
His gospel of inclusivsim will not save him or anyone else . Its gonna be the cause of their own damantion on JESUS day .
And i would be a liar if i said otherwise sister .

 

[amigo de christo]

right.

and how far is one progressiving in understanding if their understanding led them
to call GOD A LIAR and imply its all good to do so .
HELLO mr epi wont even preach the dire need to even have to beleive on JESUS
CAUSE BY GOLLY HE DONT BELIEVE ONE NEEDS TOO .
As he himself even called me a religous extremist for telling an athiest of his dire need to BELEIVE on JESUS .
And what did epi tell the atheist . WHO I THINK we sho uld know b y now an ATHEIST DONT BLEIVE IN GOD or IN HIS CHRIST .
But what did epi tell this athiest . ITS OKAY , if you just do good to a righteous man you will recieve a righteous mans reward .
REALLY . SO lets get this straight . AN atheist does not recieve GOD or HIS TESTIMONY ON JESUS .
THUS it means HE CALLS GOD A LIAR .
SO lets see what epi really just told that atheist . HEY BUDDY CALL GOD A LIAR ALL DAY , ITS OKAY
just do some good . talk about a false inclusive gospel .
YET when i come on to preach teh gospel to this atheist . Not only would epi not agree with me
HE CALLED ME A RELIGIOUS extremists . SO . THERE IT IS bud . YOU DECIDE who you gonna follow .
But as for me and the sheep , IT AINT GONNA BE THE INCLUSIVE PARTY . NO SIR .
ITS GONNA BE JESUS .