Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[Judge Hardcastle]

You are not only claiming to be under God's permanent mercy, you also claim to have immunity for prosecution from sin.

What do you think a propitiation is?
Do you even know? I don't think you do.

Romans 3:25
25God presented Him as an atoning sacrificei (propitiation) in His blood through faith, in order to demonstrate His righteousness

1 John 4:
10And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as the atoning sacrificed (propitiation) for our sins.

You don't have to believe the Bible. And you can certainly make up your own religion. But what you CAN'T do is say the Bible doesn't say what it says.

 

[Episkopos]

The problem is your circular reasoning. You say they are righteous because they obey righteously. Then you say they obey righteously because they are righteous. What a jumbled up, illogical theology!

Only a very muddled mind see it that way. Righteous is as righteous DOES. A strong man can lift 300 pounds. Does that make him strong? Did he have no strength UNTIL he lifted 300 pounds? Or did the lifting PROVE he was strong? That is not circular reasoning...it is sound reasoning.

A righteous man chooses to do what is right. This works for either believing or actions. Phinehas killed 2 people who were offensive to God and God declared that his work was righteous. The same for Abraham. Most people would have not believed God...but he did. His faith in God was the RIGHT thing to do. His work was righteous....just like Phinehas.

A new convert to Christ is to learn righteousness...or else he will be rejected. ONLY the righteous inherit the kingdom. You need to start READING the bible. All of it.

I don't have to know you to know that you do NOT walk in perfection. You just don't.

I never said I am presently walking in perfection. I said I HAD walked in the perfection of Christ. I have this testimony. And no pretender will receive my testimony because they have not been set apart for faith.

 

[Episkopos]

The gift of righteousness is only fictitious to you.

Again, only in your very muddled mind. The GIFT of righteousness is in the higher walk...in the kingdom realm. Nobody who sins has the GIFT of righteousness. That is from the pit of hell. It is no wonder you twist the bible narrative and my own words.

The gift of righteousness is not something human.....it is only found IN Christ. In Him is no sin.

That is why you are by definition an unbeliever. You do not believe in the sacrifice of Jesus for the forgiveness of sin and a turning away of the wrath of God. You are literally an unbeliever.

Like the Romans claimed the believers to be. I don't accept your idolatry. I worship Jesus and obey Jesus. It's not about me. Your false religion is based on trying to exploit Jesus for your own ends. You speak lies from yourself and you have seen nothing. You don't even know the bible...

You believe another gospel.

I am a mirror here. The true gospel is according to POWER. Your gospel is according to imagination.

 

[Episkopos]

What I don' t understand is the need for people to justify themselves in their sins. That's a double sin. It's lying on top of basic sinning. That's the sin of the Pharisees.

Why is it so important to pretend? What ever happened to claiming LESS than one is? Why is the church so full of hypocrisy?

It's in the doctrines. People think they are doing God a favour by naming and claiming a fictitious status. But the opposite is true. God HATES a false witness and a false balance.

While we are trying to be justified by Christ in our sins....we make Jesus a minister of sin. This ought not to be. Instead we are to claim to be unprofitable servants. Let others consider you to be righteous...not yourself.

 

[Episkopos]

What do you think a propitiation is?
Do you even know? I don't think you do.

Romans 3:25
25God presented Him as an atoning sacrificei (propitiation) in His blood through faith, in order to demonstrate His righteousness

1 John 4:
10And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as the atoning sacrificed (propitiation) for our sins.

You don't have to believe the Bible. And you can certainly make up your own religion. But what you CAN'T do is say the Bible doesn't say what it says.

It's Kaparah in Hebrew. And it concerns holiness not righteousness. And there are 2 goats on Yom Kippour. One for sacrifice and one to escape. You are the escape variety...or Jesus Barabbas.


What you don't realize is that escape is not a good thing.... being sacrificed is.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Righteous is as righteous DOES

Which is exactly why you are not righteous.

But you expect to enter into the kingdom on the righteousness that you are not.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

I never said I am presently walking in perfection. I said I HAD walked in the perfection of Christ. I have this testimony. And no pretender will receive my testimony because they have not been set apart for faith.

Then you're a pretender. You're the very thing you damn others for being.

Why are you, a pretender, saved by your beliefs about not being a pretender but we pretenders are not saved by our beliefs? Your hypocrisy is astounding.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

I have this testimony. And no pretender will receive my testimony because they have not been set apart for faith.

You don't realize how Reformed your theology sounds, lol.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

A strong man can lift 300 pounds. Does that make him strong? Did he have no strength UNTIL he lifted 300 pounds? Or did the lifting PROVE he was strong? That is not circular reasoning...it is sound reasoning.

Then stop saying we are made righteous by being righteous!

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

It's Kaparah in Hebrew. And it concerns holiness not righteousness. And there are 2 goats on Yom Kippour. One for sacrifice and one to escape. You are the escape variety...or Jesus Barabbas.


What you don't realize is that escape is not a good thing.... being sacrificed is.

Does Jesus being a ransom for mankind mean he takes our place, in the place of God's judgement, or does it mean I remain in the place of God's wrath?

You do know Jesus came to be a ransom for mankind, don't you?

Matthew 20:28
th Son of Man came...to give his life as a ransom for many.

There is no ransom, no life in exchange for another, no propitiation in your theology. You are the one who needs to start reading ALL of the Bible.

You need to start READING the bible. All of it.

Your Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible.

 

[Episkopos]

Does Jesus being a ransom for mankind mean he takes our place, in the place of God's judgement, or does it mean I remain in the place of God's wrath?

Jesus bought back- redeemed-mankind from the devil, and death. Jesus defeated sin and death in a mortal body, so that we could do the same in our mortal bodies (among His disciples). The wrath of God is on the wicked (unrighteous) and the filthy believers (unholy) who cause God's name to be blasphemed in the world.

What is NOT happening is people who are allowed to name and claim to be righteous based on their beliefs. God's wrath is on them.

You do know Jesus came to be a ransom for mankind, don't you?

That's what I have been trying to explain to you....without success. For God so loved the WORLD.....not just the church. The church is for holiness and glory. Those who fail that better hope that they are received among the righteous. To do that you have to be merciful and not judgmental towards the meek.

Matthew 20:28
th Son of Man came...to give his life as a ransom for many.

There is no ransom, no life in exchange for another, no propitiation in your theology. You are the one who needs to start reading ALL of the Bible.

You are contradicting yourself as usual. Jesus took the place of all who will dwell in God's presence in eternity. God is holy...and there must be holiness in God's people. The many who are redeemed are the righteous...whether believers or not...and the saints who walk IN Christ.... especially the saints.

The righteous inherit life. The saints inherit glory. Do yourself a favour. Read the bible. Check out Prov 10 and learn how God sees the righteous.

Your Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible.

Your Jesus is Jesus Barabbas...who is in the bible.... but as a thief and brigand.

 

[Episkopos]

Then stop saying we are made righteous by being righteous!

We are deemed (imputed) righteous by being righteous. Your idea of "made righteous" is your fiction.

The righteousness of God is imparted to the righteous who fully surrender to God. They take on the higher righteousness as a garment or armour that sees them overcome as Jesus did. Grace EMPOWERS us to fulfill the will of God or it is not grace.

 

[Lizbeth]

What I don' t understand is the need for people to justify themselves in their sins. That's a double sin. It's lying on top of basic sinning. That's the sin of the Pharisees.

Why is it so important to pretend? What ever happened to claiming LESS than one is? Why is the church so full of hypocrisy?

It's in the doctrines. People think they are doing God a favour by naming and claiming a fictitious status. But the opposite is true. God HATES a false witness and a false balance.

While we are trying to be justified by Christ in our sins....we make Jesus a minister of sin. This ought not to be. Instead we are to claim to be unprofitable servants. Let others consider you to be righteous...not yourself.

He HAS made us righteous.....it is "righteousness unto holiness". Born again believers are not in our sins as you accuse. (Unless someone chooses to leave the path of righteousness that we were placed on by the Lord as a gift...which I know is tragically happening far too much these days.)

 

[Episkopos]

He HAS made us righteous.....it is "righteousness unto holiness".

I don't think you understand what you are saying from anything in the bible.

Was the Publican who beat his chest MADE righteous? Or did God merely impute (deem) righteousness to him based on the evidence? God being a righteous judge.

Your god is NOT righteous and condemns the just and justifies wickedness, lying, and pretending.

Born again believers are not in our sins as you accuse.

Born again believers are not mature or knowledgeable in righteousness until they heed true doctrine. The false doctrines circulating in the churches have undermined any possible progression in knowledge and wisdom.

(Unless someone chooses to leave the path of righteousness that we were placed on by the Lord as a gift...which I know is tragically happening far too much these days.)

The path of righteousness is humility and the fear of the Lord which are both spoken against in most modern churches. These wise things have been replaced with naming and claiming and religious certainty and hubris. The iniquity in the churches is basically full and ready to be judged.

Religious certainty is antithetical to the fear of the Lord. Therefore it is foolish.

Can you say...counting your chickens before they are hatched? Can you say...not thinking you need extra oil for your lamp?

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

(Hope you don't mind me butting in here, @Lizbeth )

Was the Publican who beat his chest MADE righteous?

He was declared to be righteous. That's what 'justified' means in it's purest form.

Luke 18:13
13...he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’ 14I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified.

Or did God merely impute (deem) righteousness to him based on the evidence?

Read the passage. He had no evidence upon which to be declared righteous. Yet, completely contrary to your theology, he was declared righteous, while the Pharisee who did have evidence wasn't declared righteous. He was declared righteous on the basis of God's mercy, not his righteous life.

Titus 3:5
5He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy

He didn't have a righteous life upon which to be declared righteous. He was declared righteous by God's mercy. But you are sure this is a fictitious righteousness, because it is not based on your 'righteous is as righteous does' philosophy. But there it is right in the pages of the Bible. A righteousness that is by faith in God's mercy, not by works. And taught to us by Jesus himself.

God being a righteous judge.

Your god is NOT righteous and condemns the just and justifies wickedness, lying, and pretending.

James 2:13
13Mercy triumphs over judgment.

I think you even quoted this verse somewhere in the defense of your theology. What, is it not true now that it defends the righteousness that is by faith, not by works?

Born again believers are not mature or knowledgeable in righteousness until they heed true doctrine. The false doctrines circulating in the churches have undermined any possible progression in knowledge and wisdom.

Convince us that Jesus' theology in the Luke passage I quoted from above is false.

The path of righteousness is humility and the fear of the Lord which are both spoken against in most modern churches.

No, humility and fear of the Lord are not spoken against in most churches. That's a ridiculous argument.

These wise things have been replaced with naming and claiming and religious certainty and hubris.

You can't have the forgiveness God has provided in Christ unless you claim it for yourself by having faith in it. The person who does that will indeed have the certainty of what they access by faith because faith by Biblical definition is 'the surety of things not seen' (Hebrews 11:1). And because the gift of righteousness/eternal life is by believing, not by the merit of ones righteousness it excludes the occasion for hubris. Your theology is the one that affords the occasion to be boastful and proud because it is by works.

Romans 4:2
2If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God.

Romans 3:27-28
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Justification by faith removes the possibility of boasting. Your justification by works theology installs it because it is in that theology that a person can boast in the (supposed) greatness of their righteous life. Like the Pharisee in the Luke passage I quoted above. Completely contrary to your theology, the Pharisee with his boast of righteousness and 'not being like other men' was rejected, while the humble plea for mercy of the unrighteous tax collector was received, and it is he who went home justified, not the righteous Pharisee. Your theology says it's the other way around.

Religious certainty is antithetical to the fear of the Lord. Therefore it is foolish.

You are terribly ignorant of the scriptures that speak of assurance of salvation.

Can you say...counting your chickens before they are hatched?

What is it about already passing from death to life, and from darkness to light that you do not understand in Jesus' teachings?

John 5:24
24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.

You're the one waiting to see if your works will be good enough to save you, while we have the assurance of faith (Hebrews 11:1) and the evidence of our ever-increasing traits of the Spirit (2 Peter 1:10) to know, now, that we are already saved.

Can you say....not thinking you need extra oil for your lamp?

Where do you come up with this false accusation that the church teaches that you do not need the Holy Spirit to be prepared for the Judgment and identified as a true believer? I think it is your theology that says the Holy Spirit is not necessary. You are the one who defends other religions and their works above the teachings of Christianity. Did you forget?

 

[Episkopos]

You can't have the forgiveness God has provided in Christ unless you claim it for yourself by having faith in it.

Bologna. Faith is towards God not your religious certainty. This statement of yours is so obviously false that some here will agree with it.

Name it claim it strikes again.

In your scheme a man is saved by claiming to be saved. If he doesn't claim to be saved then he can't be. This is the very opposite of God's ways. It would be like saying that the Publican was justified because he looked up to heaven and claimed to be righteous.

 

[ProDeo]

Will devout Muslims enter the Kingdom ?

No. They will enter the nations.

So devout Muslims will be given eternal life on the new Earth without knowing or even rejecting Christ ???

Jesus is the Saviour of the whole world...especially those who believe.

That's an UR core verse from Scripture, hope you realize.

God's mercy does not stop at death, not in Scripture, but it comes down what you are preaching here.

Whoever obeys Christ, whether believer or not is saved. Jesus' blood covers all who obey Him.

Matt 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Matt 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Matt 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Matt 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Matt 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Matt 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’

Good news for Atheists ??

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

In your scheme a man is saved by claiming to be saved.

No, lol, that's not what being saved by faith in God means.
Being saved by faith means you believe God's promise about salvation through Jesus Christ.
When you put your faith in what God has said about salvation he does what he promised to do, he saves you.

Romans 10:13
13“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”f

Romans 10:11
11“Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame.”e

Our friend the tax collector in Luke 18:13-14 is an example of this. There is no 'naming and claiming' going on. He's approaching God, in faith, for mercy in his sinful condition. And he received that mercy, because he approached God in faith for it.

13But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’ 14I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified.

Notice no works of righteousness were necessary for him to be justified. He only brought his faith that God would have mercy on him, and he was justified. Meanwhile, the Pharisee who trusted in his righteousness and was 'not like other men' did NOT go home justified.

 

[Lizbeth]

I don't think you understand what you are saying from anything in the bible.

Was the Publican who beat his chest MADE righteous? Or did God merely impute (deem) righteousness to him based on the evidence? God being a righteous judge.

Your god is NOT righteous and condemns the just and justifies wickedness, lying, and pretending.

Remember Jesus was telling that story to the Jews before He had been crucified. It's purpose was to give a lesson about hypocrisy.....aimed at the religious Jews under the Law especially. In the story the publican repented in heartfelt sincerity and turned to God. (The best that one could do before the cross, not being able to be born again yet.) That would have taken FAITH wouldn't it? Like Abraham and other OT saints cited in the new testament had before the cross.

My God is righteous, holy, and does all things well in perfect accord with His word.

Born again believers are not mature or knowledgeable in righteousness until they heed true doctrine. The false doctrines circulating in the churches have undermined any possible progression in knowledge and wisdom.

We may not be entirely perfect in our walk in the beginning, even though we have been graciously declared righteous in God's sight and have left our old life of sin behind......but we should grow in righteousness and gain understanding as we seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness.

I believe from scripture that suffering is the necessary fertilizer for growth and sanctification......as we undergo the Lord's chastisements as sons bearing His reproach when Satan starts to persecute and attack and sift us.....being refined in the crucible of life as the Lord leads or allows........as well as sound doctrine, which includes all the warnings and admonitions as well as encouragements in the scriptures. Which yes is lacking in most of today's churches. Even back in the '80's when I was saved, and after a brief joyous honeymoon period with the Lord, my life turned into a nightmare and there was no encouragement or explanation for it coming from any pulpits that I saw to help me understand or navigate what I was going through. It was by the grace of God that my anchor held fast. Understanding of suffering came later from the Lord and scripture (I don't claim to be a fast learner), and not from the churches/ministries at all.

The path of righteousness is humility and the fear of the Lord which are both spoken against in most modern churches. These wise things have been replaced with naming and claiming and religious certainty and hubris. The iniquity in the churches is basically full and ready to be judged.

Religious certainty is antithetical to the fear of the Lord. Therefore it is foolish.

Can you say...counting your chickens before they are hatched? Can you say...not thinking you need extra oil for your lamp?

All the warnings and admonitions of scripture should serve to keep us from religious certainty. Take heed who thinks he stands lest he fall is just one example. Certainly agree we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling......perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord, etc. And I agree these are not being preached and taught in today's churches/ministries. We are not to rest on our laurels and fall asleep so to speak but stay sober and alert and watchful because the devil is always seeking who he may devour........and keep moving forward with the Lord.....forgetting what lies behind and pressing on to what lies ahead.......leaving the first principles and going on to perfection....that theme is also in the OT in Isaiah 43. Not in a literal sense, but in the sense that we need to keep growing and moving forward in the upward call. We are always being tested and tried in this life, and need to endure faithful to the end. Nobody knows when or how we will finish our race on this earth....finishing well is not guaranteed.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

If he doesn't claim to be saved then he can't be.

Correction: If he doesn't claim the offer of salvation by believing in it, then he can't be saved.

That is the argument. Stop hearing an argument for salvation that is not being made.

The promise of God is if you acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, and you believe by faith that he is the sacrifice that God has provided for the forgiveness of sin and a turning away of God's wrath, you will be saved. That is the faith that saves.

Romans 10:8-9
8...that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

We can tell who really believes this message and has received it into themselves and retained it in their heart by if they then begin to live for God. The pretenders, as you call them, show by how they live that they really don't believe Jesus is Lord and have not placed their faith and trust in his sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin. That's an indictment against them, not the gospel message.