SLAIN IN THE SPIRIT?

[marksman]

Yours is a very selective sampling and it comes without an examination of the etymology of adelphos (brother and sister).

That is right. I selected 12 different translations in the original Greek. My theology lecturer would be very proud of me.

 

[marksman]

Also, 1 Cor 14:26 (NIV) is dealing with adelphoi who can engage in this ministry that includes a word of didache (instruction, teaching). I've already demonstrated that in a congregation, the Greek means brothers AND sisters. So men and women are included in the ministry of the word of instruction/teaching. That's what the Greek demonstrates. I have been a teacher of NT Greek and continue to use my Greek NT in exegesis.

I know teachers of NT Greek who find the eucharist in scripture. In fact, whole denominations find the eucharist in the Greek. Finding something in the Greek doesn't make you right as I found out when I did a two year study of the life and times of the New Testament Church.

 

[marksman]

That's exactly what I said. That it refers to salvation.

However, I notice what you missed from my post - convenient for you. But I didn't mess it:

Male and female are one in Christ and God has gifted brothers and sisters with the 'word of instruction/teaching' according to 1 Cor 14:6 (NIV); 1 Cor 14:26 (NIV). The word for instruction/teaching is didache and applies to both brothers and sisters in the congregation as these 2 verses confirm.

I Cor 14: 6 (NIV) and 1 Cor 14:26 (NIV) confirm that the gift of didache, i.e. instruction/teaching, is available to both brothers and sisters in Christ. When will you come up to speed with the biblical evidence? Is there too much of a traditional blockage?

I never said that women cannot teach. Another one of your strawmen. What I DID SAY IS THAT THEY CANNOT TEACH MEN.

 

[marksman]

That's exactly what I said. That it refers to salvation.

I haven't seen you refer it to salvation once.

 

[marksman]

Another red herring. I was addressing your flaming and goading comments towards The Barrd, which you refuse to acknowledge, apologise for, and correct. When will you engage in godly language with your tongue and tame it toward The Barrd (see James 3:1-12)? 'How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire! And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness' (James 3:5-6 ESV).

​And I was addressing her flaming and goading. it seems that you are very selective in your criticism.

 

[marksman]

You have made some personal assumptions here that we will see are not backed by the text of Acts 9. These presuppositions are:
2. 'After all he only saw a bright light'. That's not what the text says. It states, 'And suddenly a light from heaven shone around him' (Ac 9:3 ESV). There is no statement here at all that he SAW a bright light. It is only reported that there was a light that shone. But it DOES say that 'he heard a voice saying to him' (Ac 9:4 ESV). There is no statement here at all that he SAW a bright li There is no indication whether he was in prayer on the ground or flat on his back or face on the ground - or any other posture. To make this equivalent to slain in the Spirit is a travesty of interpretation.
2. 'If you know what you are talking about, it is obvious there was something powerful in that bright light. My guess is it was the Holy Spirit.'. When I read the text of Acts 9, I find that you have inserted your own presuppositions here. You have told us what this is for you, 'My guess'. It is a guess and is not factual. Saul told us exactly who it was whom he encountered, with his question, 'Who are you, Lord?' (Ac 9:5)

​What a convoluted response. Most of it is doing what you accuse me of doing. I dont have the time or interest in correcting everything you said so I will point out examples.

2. Of course that is not what the text says because I was not quoting the text. He heard a voice AFTER he had fallen. If it says "suddenly a light from heaven shone around him" how come he didn't see it? "There is no statement here at all that he SAW a bright light." Then, why did he fall to the ground? Perhaps he tripped over a rock? You have admitted that we don't know what posture he was adopting so tell me, how do you know what happened? I Have been knocked down by the Spirit so Paul might have been. You said you don't know. So why is my guess wrong and yours right if you don't know?

3. I didn't say it was factual. That is your supposition and a strawman. Paul's response was obvious in the sense that he had no idea who the Holy Spirit was so he could not say "Who are you Holy Spirit?" And the word "Lord" means "supreme controller" not Jesus.

I won't waste my time pointing out all the other mistake in the post. I have got better things to do.

 

[mjrhealth]

What I DID SAY IS THAT THEY CANNOT TEACH MEN.

I think what you meant to say is that, " some men wont listen", God will use whom He will whether people choose to listen or not that is their perogative.

 

[marksman]

I haven't seen you refer it to salvation once. This is what you said after claiming that....Male and female are one in Christ and God has gifted brothers and sisters with the 'word of instruction/teaching' according to 1 Cor 14:6 (NIV); 1 Cor 14:26 (NIV). The word for instruction/teaching is didache and applies to both brothers and sisters in the congregation as these 2 verses confirm.

​What has that got to do with salvation?

 

[marksman]

I think what you meant to say is that, " some men wont listen", God will use whom He will whether people choose to listen or not that is their perogative.

I said what I said because that is what I meant to say. If I didn't say it then it is not what I meant to say. That is what happens when you are autistic. You say what you mean and mean what you say.

 

[marksman]

LOL...really, you think I have that good a memory? I only address them when I see them. ^_^

Perhaps that was strawman Stan. You know, that thing he keeps accusing everyone else of who disagrees with him.

 

[Barrd]

The Barrd,

No, I did not know your personal circumstances. You are an amazing lady. May the Lord continue to bless and encourage you in your ministry. Are you attending a church where women's ministry is appreciated and affirmed?

Our husband and father was taken from us by a drunk driver, coming home after working late one Friday night. We had never thought of having life insurance at that time...we were very young. I had married fresh out of high school. I didn't even have a driver's license at that time. Not that it would have done me any good...the car was totaled.
I don't mind telling you...that was a dark time for me. For the next several years I worked like a dog...cleaning people's houses, taking in laundry, cooking for other people, doing yard work, taking care of people's pets and/or kids...whatever would earn me a few dollars. I was a drudge...but I did manage to get an Associate's in Law from a local junior college, with transferable credits in case I wanted to continue. But it was enough to get me a job as a legal secretary, which eventually worked up to legal assistant. I got to dress pretty and wear make up...and make enough money for a decent house and other needs for myself and my kids.

I still miss him sometimes. I sit and watch out the window, even to this day, for the headlights that are never going to turn in to the driveway again. The baby is now 35 years old, with a couple of teen age girls of her own...but sometimes it feels like I just buried him.
I have dated a couple of times...almost got serious once...but he turned out to be a married man. Ugh...

I am currently involved in a house church where we all minister to one another. There is a great deal of love between our families, and we value each and every one equally.
We have even given our children the opportunity to preach for us. My grand daughter, who is about to turn 13, is amazing.

I have this theory that most people are about as happy as they make up their minds that they will be.
And I am determined to be happy...

And I do have my little one-eyed Shih Tzu. He is a little clown, and I adore him.

I am blessed with a wife who fits that of Prov 31:11-31 (ESV). She is an excellent wife who fears the Lord. On this Monday morning as I write I can hear her on the vacuum cleaner giving the house a once over before she mops the tiles. She is an impeccable house keeper, wonderful cook, very gifted pianist, and one who has memorised entire chapters of the NT in the NIV, e.g. Romans, Hebrews, 1 Peter, and Philippians. She's a very competent Bible study leader and treasurer of our church's women's group.

I don't even have to look that scripture up to know it is The Virtuous Woman. I have a poster with her in my kitchen.
Your Delsey sounds amazing.
You are both very blessed.
Next time you hold your beautiful lady in your arms, think of me, watching for those headlights...and remember to never take what you have for granted, Oz.
Treasure her always.

Thank you for your very kind wishes towards me. I hope you have picked up on a few of my articles on my homepage, Truth Challenge, on women in ministry. A search on that site will find them. I have written a new article, based on what I encountered during the Christmas season, How to Cut Christ out of Christmas.

I have added your page to my favorites, Oz.
Now, have you read any of my stuff? I have a blog on this site, called "The Barrd's Quill". I'd be more than honored if you would take a peek and tell me what you think. The link is the bottom line of my signature.

There are a couple of excerpts from my magnum opus, "The First Sinner" which is an epic tale setting the life of the man called "Barabbas" against the life of Jesus Christ, beginning when they were boys. The premise is that Barabbas, or, in my story "Joshua" was raised to believe himself to be the promised Messiah.
All the Bible tells us of him was that he was in prison for insurrection and murder. I did a bit of research, and made him the leader of a group called "The Sicarii".
Before you correct me, Oz, remember that my book is strictly a work of fiction. But I think you might enjoy it.

I'm sure it's OK with Desley to get a 'kiss' on the Internet cheek.

Tell her that I absolutely promise...no ear nibbling.

Because of Jesus,
Oz

With all my love,
The Barrd

 

[tom55]

The Barrd,

You need to be able to demonstrate that this is what God teaches in the authoritative Scripture. I have been seeking God and pursuing this study for many years. From my study of Scripture, I have found that there has been a censorship of women in ministry that I am not convinced is supported by Scripture. Yes, isolated verses that are cherry picked seem to support an anti-women in teaching ministry (e.g. 1 Tim 2:12 ESV).

I have taken the following information from my article, Should churches have female deacons? In this article I deal with women’s ministry in the OT, including that of Deborah and Huldah. Evidence of women presbyters (elders) has been found in archaeological sites.

Archaeology, tombstones & women presbyters

Catacombs of Priscilla, Rome

It was pointed out that in the first four centuries of the NT era, archaeology has found grave sites that confirmed there were women presbyters. ‘One tombstone reads, (don’t remember the names in order) ___ the daughter of Lois the presbyter’.[8] He stated that in many areas around the Mediterranean Sea, there have been discovered paintings of women in leadership positions and inscriptions in churches and on tombstones. These women are named and their positions are that of bishops and deacons. His view was that ‘archaeology demands that we reconcile what we have from Paul with the evidence’.[9]

What is the evidence from archaeology? ‘As far as the statement that there is no tradition of women priests, there’s good evidence from archaeology and iconography, in areas of what is now the former Yugoslavia, and southern Italy, that there were women presbyters, leaders of Christian communities in those places, in the early centuries. And a presbyter is what we would call a priest today’ (Johnson 2010:98).

Aisha Taylor, a Roman Catholic, researched the archaeological evidence for women’s leadership in the early centuries of the church. She found that

This is not Scripture, but it is evidence of what happened after the Scriptures were written.

For many years I was captive to this anti-women in public teaching ministry among a mixed group. It came from the traditional evangelical church of my upbringing (Baptist). However, as I read the Scriptures and studied deeply, I found too many anomalies in the traditional view. I want to make it clear that my conclusions are based on the exegesis of Scripture and not from the influence of women's liberation. Here is one example for you to chew on. It's the one that is constantly dragged out to PROVE that women should not teach in the church. I'm speaking of 1 Tim 2:12-15 (ESV):

When I was able to work out the meaning of the beginning of v 15, 'Yet she will be saved through childbearing', was I able to unravel the meaning of v. 12. Also, I had to read 1 Tim 2:12 (ESV) in the broader context of what was happening in 1 Timothy and the Ephesian church (1 Tim 1:3 ESV). I was not trying to liberate women in ministry (although that was needed), I was also trying to make sense of 1 Cor 11-14 (ESV) where a wife was able to prophesy (1 Cor 11:5 ESV) - which one generally can't do as a silent woman (unless she writes it down) - and what was stated in 1 Cor 14:33-34 (ESV), 'As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says'.

How is it possible for a woman to be told to 'keep silent' yet a woman (a wife) can prophesy? God is a God of truth so he does not allow contradictions. I found that I had too many contradictions in my teaching when I closed down women in ministry. I still have a few fuzzy edges to knock off in gaining a better understanding of women in ministry. You can see some of my teaching on this vital subject in the topic, 'Women in ministry' in the right hand menu on my homepage, Truth Challenge. I have 12 articles on the topic. You'll also see a picture of my darling wife, Desley, and me.

Notes

[8] I have not located this statement in an online search.

[9] Christian Forums.com, Hank77#23. Available at: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/female-deacons.7904366/ (Accessed 23 September 2015).

[10] A mosaic is ‘a picture or pattern produced by arranging together small pieces of stone, tile, glass, etc.’ (Oxford Dictionaries 2015. S v mosaic).

[11] A fresco is ‘a painting done rapidly in watercolour on wet plaster on a wall or ceiling, so that the colours penetrate the plaster and become fixed as it dries’ (Oxford Dictionaries 2015. S v fresco).

[12] They are in Rome. ‘The Catacombs of Priscilla sit on the Via Salaria, with its entrance in the convent of the Benedictine Sisters of Priscilla. It is mentioned in all of the most ancient documents on Christian topography and liturgy in Rome; because of the great number of martyrs buried within it, it was called “regina catacumbarum – the queen of the catacombs.” Originally dug out from the second to fifth centuries, it began as a series of underground burial chambers, of which the most important are the “arenarium” or sand-quarry, the cryptoporticus, (an underground area to get away from the summer heat), and the hypogeum with the tombs of the Acilius Glabrio family)’ (Catacombs of Priscilla, available at: http://www.catacombepriscilla.com/index_en.html, accessed 25 September 2015).

[13] The full details for author and book are, J N M Wijngaards 2006. Women Deacons in the Early Church: Historical Texts and Contemporary Debates. New York: Crossroad Publishing Company (Herder & Herder).


Works consulted
Johnson, A 2010. Roman Catholic Woman Bishop, in M E Fiedler (ed), Breaking through the Stained Glass Ceiling: Women Religious Leaders in Their Own Words, 96-99. New York, NY: Seabury Books.

Taylor, A 2010. Former executive director, Women’s Ordination Conference on the archaeological evidence for women’s leadership, in M E Fiedler (ed), Breaking through the Stained Glass Ceiling: Women Religious Leaders in Their Own Words, 91-96. New York, NY: Seabury Books.

Cherry picked? What about I Cor. 14:34-35 and 1Tim 3:12?

Come on now lets be honest about our Christian sister, Aisha Taylor. She is anti-Catholic. And the "works" you consulted are from anti-Catholic and pro-woman in church leadership authors. This would be like me going and finding your or The Barrd's or my own enemies and asking them to write book on what they think of us.

Jesus didn't choose any woman apostles. The apostles didn't replace Judas with a woman. No where in scripture is a woman chosen to lead a church. The early Church Fathers preached (wrote) against it. Your theory is not based on scripture or written history or the traditional history of the Christian Church.

This silly article you provided as archeological "evidence" is not supported by any legitimate scholar. The article even states that Pro-women in ministries groups are the ones saying it is evidence of woman priest in the early church.

The pastor of the church I attend allows his wife to preach in his absence. It bothers me but he is a good preacher and the church as a whole does a lot of good things.

 

[mjrhealth]

Jesus didn't choose any woman apostles. The apostles didn't replace Judas with a woman.

Oh Man, didnt you know Jesus came to fullfill teh law, the old jewish religion had no place for women. we are not under the law but a new testament. Even the disciples where Jews coming out of an old religion to a new faith, the old all of the flesh the new of the spirit. God has and will use women who will listen to Him, pity men will disregard what He has to say, because of ignorance. God is no respector of personm even if men are biased.

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

My reasons for not believing the baptism of the Holy Spirit is accompanied by tongues is examined in my article, Tongues and the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. I used to believe that but now any more, after I examined the biblical evidence.

Oz

I've gone back and forth on this in my life and am more convinced than ever that the INITIAL evidence IS speaking in tongues. Don't want to go off track here so maybe you can start a thread about it and I'll read your link.

 

[StanJ]

Perhaps that was strawman Stan. You know, that thing he keeps accusing everyone else of who disagrees with him.

No, I know Oz fairly well, well as well as someone can know a person I have never met but online, and he doesn't make accusations lightly. As I don't really get into arguments between other individuals to any depth, I'm not sure what he saw, but I would tend to think he did see a strawman.

 

[OzSpen]

I know teachers of NT Greek who find the eucharist in scripture. In fact, whole denominations find the eucharist in the Greek. Finding something in the Greek doesn't make you right as I found out when I did a two year study of the life and times of the New Testament Church.

Another red herring fallacy! opcorn:

 

[OzSpen]

I never said that women cannot teach. Another one of your strawmen. What I DID SAY IS THAT THEY CANNOT TEACH MEN.

Another red herring.

 

[OzSpen]

​And I was addressing her flaming and goading. it seems that you are very selective in your criticism.

And I was referring you to James 3:1-12. Doesn't this scriptural warning have any impact on you?

 

[OzSpen]

Our husband and father was taken from us by a drunk driver, coming home after working late one Friday night. We had never thought of having life insurance at that time...we were very young. I had married fresh out of high school. I didn't even have a driver's license at that time. Not that it would have done me any good...the car was totaled.
I don't mind telling you...that was a dark time for me. For the next several years I worked like a dog...cleaning people's houses, taking in laundry, cooking for other people, doing yard work, taking care of people's pets and/or kids...whatever would earn me a few dollars. I was a drudge...but I did manage to get an Associate's in Law from a local junior college, with transferable credits in case I wanted to continue. But it was enough to get me a job as a legal secretary, which eventually worked up to legal assistant. I got to dress pretty and wear make up...and make enough money for a decent house and other needs for myself and my kids.

I still miss him sometimes. I sit and watch out the window, even to this day, for the headlights that are never going to turn in to the driveway again. The baby is now 35 years old, with a couple of teen age girls of her own...but sometimes it feels like I just buried him.
I have dated a couple of times...almost got serious once...but he turned out to be a married man. Ugh...

I am currently involved in a house church where we all minister to one another. There is a great deal of love between our families, and we value each and every one equally.
We have even given our children the opportunity to preach for us. My grand daughter, who is about to turn 13, is amazing.

I have this theory that most people are about as happy as they make up their minds that they will be.
And I am determined to be happy...

And I do have my little one-eyed Shih Tzu. He is a little clown, and I adore him.



I don't even have to look that scripture up to know it is The Virtuous Woman. I have a poster with her in my kitchen.
Your Delsey sounds amazing.
You are both very blessed.
Next time you hold your beautiful lady in your arms, think of me, watching for those headlights...and remember to never take what you have for granted, Oz.
Treasure her always.

I have added your page to my favorites, Oz.
Now, have you read any of my stuff? I have a blog on this site, called "The Barrd's Quill". I'd be more than honored if you would take a peek and tell me what you think. The link is the bottom line of my signature.

There are a couple of excerpts from my magnum opus, "The First Sinner" which is an epic tale setting the life of the man called "Barabbas" against the life of Jesus Christ, beginning when they were boys. The premise is that Barabbas, or, in my story "Joshua" was raised to believe himself to be the promised Messiah.
All the Bible tells us of him was that he was in prison for insurrection and murder. I did a bit of research, and made him the leader of a group called "The Sicarii".
Before you correct me, Oz, remember that my book is strictly a work of fiction. But I think you might enjoy it.


Tell her that I absolutely promise...no ear nibbling.


With all my love,
The Barrd

The Barrd,

Thank you so much for your transparency in sharing your heartache of your personal journal. I have now read your blog and made a couple of comments. You have a special gift with poetry. May the Lord encourage you with this ministry and bless it to many others. You'll get wider coverage with your Internet exposure.

I'm encouraged to see you attending a house church where there is open ministry. I'm convinced that that is the kind of church gathering that should be happening around the world to get back to a biblical model of church function. I tried to locate such a church locally, and I tell about my experience in this article, Charismatic chaos in a Brisbane house church. I cannot find another house church locally that represents sane Christianity instead of charismatic commotion, disorder or way out misbehaviour.

You'll get no ear nibbling from me for your fictional book, Can you give us a link to your book availability online. Be warned. I'm not a great fan of fiction and read very little of it. I find it hard enough reading biography. I'm wading my way through the biography of Australian tennis great, Rod Laver that was given to me by my son for Christmas 2014 and one of my favourite singers, the Life of Johnny Cash. Yes, I'm a country music fan from way back, even before my days as a radio DJ. I'm a DJ from the time of the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Beach Boys, Jimi Hendrix, etc.

May the Lord guide you to the special man he has for you. However, also be prepared that your special man is the one that was taken from you suddenly and in tragic circumstances.

In Christ,
Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Cherry picked? What about I Cor. 14:34-35 and 1Tim 3:12?

Come on now lets be honest about our Christian sister, Aisha Taylor. She is anti-Catholic. And the "works" you consulted are from anti-Catholic and pro-woman in church leadership authors. This would be like me going and finding your or The Barrd's or my own enemies and asking them to write book on what they think of us.

Jesus didn't choose any woman apostles. The apostles didn't replace Judas with a woman. No where in scripture is a woman chosen to lead a church. The early Church Fathers preached (wrote) against it. Your theory is not based on scripture or written history or the traditional history of the Christian Church.

This silly article you provided as archeological "evidence" is not supported by any legitimate scholar. The article even states that Pro-women in ministries groups are the ones saying it is evidence of woman priest in the early church.

The pastor of the church I attend allows his wife to preach in his absence. It bothers me but he is a good preacher and the church as a whole does a lot of good things.

I most certainly am not cherry picking verses. I'm trying to be an honest exegete who sees apparent contradictions in Scripture and make an honest attempt to harmonise them. God is not the God of contradiction. He is the God of truth (Deut 32:4; Ps 57:10; 86:15; Is 55:8; Heb 6:18).

Now to the verses you raise:

1 Cor. 14:33-35 (ESV)

These verses state, 'For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church'.

So women in Corinth 'should keep silent.... They are not permitted to speak', says 1 Cor 14:33-35.

However, God’s Word states that women can speak in the church — they can pray and prophesy according to I Cor. 11:5 (NIV), 'But every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head — it is the same as if her head were shaven'. Here a woman in the church is able to pray and prophesy. The head covering is another issue, but not considered here as it is not relevant to the primary topic of the validity or otherwise of women in public ministry.

It is possible to pray without opening the mouth, but I do not know how a woman can prophesy in the church gathering with her mouth closed.

We know what is involved in praying, but what does the Scripture mean when it says that a woman is able to prophesy? Surely that can’t be done through silence!

Gordon Fee, a contemporary Bible scholar and exegete, states that

The two verbs ‘pray and prophesy’ make it certain that the problem has to do with the assembly at worship. One may pray privately; but not so with prophecy. This was the primary form of inspired speech, directed toward the community [of believers] for its edification and encouragement (cf. 14:1-5).” [1] Specifically, the gift of prophecy “consisted of spontaneous, Spirit-inspired, intelligible messages, orally delivered in the gathered assembly, intended for the edification or encouragement of the people.” [2]

Therefore, we can conclude that for women to prophesy, it meant that they gave an oral message in a church gathering. They could not prophesy and remain silent at the same time.

1 Timothy 3:12

The ESV translation reads, 'Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well' ?

How does the NIV translate it, 'A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well'? For the ESV translation, 'husband of one wife', we have at least 4 possibilities as to its meaning:

1. The deacon needs to be married to a woman (wife);
2. It prohibits polygamy;
3. Marital fidelity between husband and wife.
4. It prohibits second marriages.

This is the parallel qualification to bishops (1 Tim 3:2).

Why the divergence in translations for 1 Tim 3:12? The ESV is a formal equivalence translation, which is an attempt at word-for-word. The NIV is a dynamic equivalence translation, which is meaning-for-meaning. So the translators of the NIV were of the understanding that the meaning of 'husband of one wife' was to 'be faithful to his wife'.

However, we need to ask the other question: Since a married deacon needs to be faithful to his wife, are there examples of female deacons in the NT? See the articles:

• John MacArthur, 'Was Phoebe a deaconess?' (Rom 16:1);
• 'Can women serve as deacons in the church?' (GotQuestions).

While the answer to the question is not definitive, it does seem that there were females in the NT church who had the ministry of serving, which is like that of deaconesses.

Notes
[1] Fee (1987:505-506).
[2] Fee (1987:595).

Works consulted
Fee, G D, 1987. The First Epistle to the Corinthians (The New International Commentary on the New Testament, F. F. Bruce, (gen.ed.). Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.