SLAIN IN THE SPIRIT?

[OzSpen]

Maybe he knows it as a straw man argument? ^_^

Perhaps!

The Nizkor Project has a very accessible list of logical fallacies that people often use when online or in person. I encounter them often when I write an article for an Open Access journal online and the comments come flying in with many logical fallacies. It's almost a full time job challenging these fallacies.

Here's a link to an explanation of a straw man fallacy.

What are some of the straw men you have seen promoted in this thread?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I must admit that it doesn't bother me one little bit what people call me. I guess that is one blessing of being autistic. I am very secure in myself and what I believe. So, sticks and stones and all that is water off a duck's back.

It's time you learned you are not the only person on this forum and how you speak to another is of critical importance in a Christian environment.

Why don't you take James 3:9-12 (NIV) to heart?

9 With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness. 10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be. 11 Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? 12 My brothers and sisters, can a fig-tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

Taming the tongue applies just as much to the Internet as in person. Blaming your autism at age 74 is not a good reason for what you have said to a Christian woman on this forum.

I study the word of God to learn what IT DOES SAY, not what it doesn't say. Just imagine going into the lecture theatre at Bible College and the lecturer says "In the lecture this morning we are going to study the gospel based on what the Bible doesn't say."

Gimme strength.

I also study the Word of God and find that brothers and sisters in Christ are given the gift of instruction/teaching according to 1 Cor 14:6 (NIV); 1 Cor 14:26 (NIV). That's practising your standard - a study based on what the Bible says and doesn't say. I happen to have spent years as a Bible teacher, including as a teacher in a Bible College. When I taught, I needed to make it clear what the Bible taught and not what tradition, even evangelical tradition taught.

We know that 1 Cor 14:6 (NIV) and 1 Cor 14:26 (NIV) do not teach silence of women in teaching ministry to a mixed group of men and women. We know that brothers and sisters can be engaged in teaching, starting with the Corinthian church and extending to the ends of the earth.

It's too late to convince me that women cannot be involved in teaching ministry, based on what the Bible teaches.

And do you know what? I've been in congregations where women were excluded from teaching ministry and I've heard some of the worst teaching - lousy teaching/preaching - by men. They did not have the gift of teaching but were installed by the congregation and the group was served up some of the most atrocious teaching, all in the name of male Bible teachers.

Oz

 

[marksman]

Your comments seem to indicate otherwise.
For instance, from your post #267:

"I cut my teeth debating atheists at university so one has to be very sharp and certain when you do that because if you are not they will quickly expose the flaws in your arguments. When you do that you have to canvas every angle to cover yourself and mount a strong argument. Rely on ONE point only and you are dead meat. "

Want to tell us again how you don't go looking for a fight?

​Yes I do despite the fact that you seem incapable of accepting what anyone says. My help was sought out because I was older and more experienced than the young guys at uni. I had a strong following of younger guys who wanted to learn. I was working in a job dealing with cultural issues so I had a background of study and employment with the church advising and writing papers for their use to combat the degradation that was taking place in society. Because of my papers and the church making use of them, the government was forced to back down on some of its legislation to legalize sin.

I was involved in a Christian organisation on campus so they made us of my expertise. When I then went to university myself, my reputation went before me and I became a natural choice to take on those that went out of their way to have the christian voice closed down.

They gave in in the end when I asked one of my lecturers who was a homosexual to debate me on homosexuality and the bible. He ran away aghast at the thought of it. My final act was to put together a team of students together to contest the Student Union Election which to date had been in the hands of the atheists for 26 years. I formulated a strategy which they did not see coming and we won the election and took over the editorship of the student newspaper.

So yes, the young guys acknowledged my expertise and were happy to make us of it. The number two on my ticket at the Student Election is now the leader of the Liberal party in my State.

 

[marksman]

We have Scripture to confirm that God loves both brothers and sisters in Christ. Gal 3:28 (NIV) puts it so clearly, 'There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus'. Male and female are one in Christ and God has gifted brothers and sisters with the 'word of instruction/teaching' according to 1 Cor 14:6 (NIV); 1 Cor 14:26 (NIV). The word for instruction/teaching is didache and applies to both brothers and sisters in the congregation as these 2 verses confirm.

​Another strawman I see. No one that I can see and certainly I haven't said that God does not love both brothers and sisters.

As for Galatians 3:28 you have taken it out of context. It relates to salvation, not ministries in the body of Christ. As it says in the literal translation....for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many as were baptized into Christ, you put on Christ. There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there is no slave nor free man, there is no male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

There is no male and female and he refers to everyone as "sons." I wonder why? And this verse talks about being baptised so I hope you believe that we should be baptised.

 

[marksman]

It's time you learned you are not the only person on this forum and how you speak to another is of critical importance in a Christian environment.

Taming the tongue applies just as much to the Internet as in person. Blaming your autism at age 74 is not a good reason for what you have said to a Christian woman on this forum.


I also study the Word of God and find that brothers and sisters in Christ are given the gift of instruction/teaching according to 1 Cor 14:6 (NIV); 1 Cor 14:26 (NIV). That's practising your standard - a study based on what the Bible says and doesn't say. I happen to have spent years as a Bible teacher, including as a teacher in a Bible College. When I taught, I needed to make it clear what the Bible taught and not what tradition, even evangelical tradition taught.

We know that 1 Cor 14:6 (NIV) and 1 Cor 14:26 (NIV) do not teach silence of women in teaching ministry to a mixed group of men and women. We know that brothers and sisters can be engaged in teaching, starting with the Corinthian church and extending to the ends of the earth.

It's too late to convince me that women cannot be involved in teaching ministry, based on what the Bible teaches.

And do you know what? I've been in congregations where women were excluded from teaching ministry and I've heard some of the worst teaching - lousy teaching/preaching - by men. They did not have the gift of teaching but were installed by the congregation and the group was served up some of the most atrocious teaching, all in the name of male Bible teachers.

Oz

When have I said that I thought I was the only person on this forum? Definitely a strawman.

When God appoints you as my mentor I will take your advice. Until that happens, kay sera sera.

I Cor 14:6 is about speaking in tongues and prophesying, and he is talking about HIM giving instruction, not women. And in verse 26 he is addressing the brethren. In english that means males. Definitely another strawman.

I have no interest in convincing you about women teaching. This is an open forum so I can give my understanding of scripture as well as you can. My impression is that you are trying to convince me as you keep bringing up incorrect translations of scripture and when I call you out, you revert to strawmen.

And do you know what. Your last example is just that an example. I know churches where women did not teach and the teaching given was excellent.

 

[marksman]

Back at #241 you wrote: 'Not one of these verses say that they taught men. You are getting real desperate'. So you did deny that certain verses, including Rom 16:7, did not say that women taught men. Junian is the feminine accusative for Junia. Douglas Moo's commentary in The New International Commentary on the New Testament series, The Epistle to the Romans (Eerdmans 1996) states that


You state,

Doesn't prophesy then involve public ministry? How do you reconcile women able to prophesy and being told to 'keep silent in the churches' (1 Cor 14:34 ESV)? Or do you understand this as women writing down their prophecies and keeping their mouths shut?


Where did I state that? I have never ever called the work of the Holy Spirit the work of Satan.


That is a disgusting, pejorative put down. Please quit that kind of attack. We don't need it on this forum.

Oz

241 was written to Barrd.

​Simple. Prophesying is not teaching. It is exhorting and encouraging. Nowhere does it say that women cannot prophesy. The only instruction is that women cannot teach men.

I never said you did. I said that Barrd is calling the work of the Holy Spirit the work of satan and she has said several examples I gave of the Holy Spirit at work is counterfeit. In other words the work of satan. And it is not a put down. It is the truth because I was there and saw the Holy Spirit at work.

 

[marksman]

Is the second Brethren assembly you mentioned associated with the Exclusive Brethren? I went to school with a family from this group. We only found out via the grapevine where they met. There is no sign out front to say that it was a meeting hall for the Exclusives.

So your charismatic UK Brethren assembly would not allow women to teach men. Was 1 Cor 14:26 cut out of your/their Bible (along with some other verses that use the Greek, didache)? 'What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up' (1 Cor 14:26 NIV).

Eleven out of the 12 translations of the bible I have interpret 1 Cor 14:26 "What shall we say then brethren..." What you are saying is that these 11 are wrong. And my charismatic Brethren in the UK didn't cut anything out as they didn't need to. They just followed the teaching of 11 of the 12 translations of scripture which any sensible person would do.

​I have no idea if they are associated with the Exclusive Brethren as I never attend it and as there was no advertising one could not find out and I wasn't interested enough to ask questions.

 

[Barrd]

To quote what someone said...the verses do not say they weren't slain the spirit. Just one verse for example Acts 9:4 where it says he, Paul fell to the earth.

What made him fall to the earth? He had no reason to in the natural. After all he only saw a bright light. If you know what you are talking about, it is obvious there was something powerful in that bright light. My guess is it was the Holy Spirit. He fell because he was overwhelmed by the power of the Spirit. Which is exactly what happens when one is "Slain by the spirit."

I don't think for one moment he said to himself "Oh, a bright light. I had better fall to the ground."

Fall/fell/slain are all just different words to describe the same experience. Just like the young people that I saw walk through the fire tunnel and as they did so, they fell to the ground. No one touched them or pushed them. They just fell because the power of the Spirit gave them no choice.

Act 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Act 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Act 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Act 9:8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
Act 9:9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Now think of what you have seen and experienced in church. Faithful Christians line up, eager for the touch, and when it comes, they topple over backwards into the waiting arms of "catchers" who lower them gently to the floor. They speak of feelings of great joy, and/or peace. They may speak of "resting in the Spirit".

Does this sound like what happened to Paul?

No, I'm afraid not.
Paul was on his way to Damascus to arrest Christians....he was hardly a fan. He was "breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord."
Not the kind of guy one would expect to come to the altar and wait obligingly for the touch...
But, you are right....the bright light came, and Jesus spoke to him...and he fell to the ground.
When Jesus was through speaking with him, and he stood up again, he was blind.

I'm thinking that the average charismatic would be quite upset if the same thing were to happen to him...

 

[Barrd]

Thank you The Barrd for your lovely compliment re Desley and me. In 2016 we celebrate our 48th wedding anniversary (5.5 months time), DV.

48 years...how wonderful, Oz.
As you may or may not know, I was widowed very young...left with seven kids, no insurance, and no marketable skills...but I managed to keep my family together, get myself an associate's degree, and find a respectable job that allowed us to live fairly well.
When I say, treasure what you have with your lovely wife, I am being very, very serious, as I know how easily it can be taken away.
I offer, then, this blessing for you both:

Wishing you a house full of sunshine,
And hearts full of cheer, ​

Love that grows deeper ​

Each day of the year.​

You don't have to be a scholar. That calling is to only a few. However you can benefit from their scholarship if they make it available in reasonably understandable language. That can be a hindrance for some scholars. With the arrival of the Internet more is available online. Mine is available through Creative Commons open access, as long as it is not for sale and as long as credit is given.

Well, Oz, I have this friend who has become quite dear to my heart...he is a scholar, you see...and I believe I am benefiting from his scholarship, as well as his friendship.
And I thank God for giving me the opportunity of knowing that Aussie bloke... :wub:
I do hope the lovely Desley doesn't mind me kissing you on your cheek...I've a hug for her, as well, just for being wise enough to marry my friend and make him the happy man that he is.

We have Scripture to confirm that God loves both brothers and sisters in Christ. Gal 3:28 (NIV) puts it so clearly, 'There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus'. Male and female are one in Christ and God has gifted brothers and sisters with the 'word of instruction/teaching' according to 1 Cor 14:6 (NIV); 1 Cor 14:26 (NIV). The word for instruction/teaching is didache and applies to both brothers and sisters in the congregation as these 2 verses confirm.

Thank you for pointing that out, Oz.

There is a tricky verse at 1 Tim 2:12 that is generally brought up over and over by those opposed to female teachers to a mixed group of men and women. I have attempted to address some of these issues in, Must women never teach men in the church?
It's a few years since I wrote this article and it probably needs a review and second edition.

Some men are intimidated by a strong woman, although I have never understood why. Inferiority complex, perhaps...a need to dominate? I would advise any woman to steer clear of such men...

Keep up the good work of challenging those with opposing opinions - but not resorting to what one person has done to you with his flaming/goading approach.

Thanks, Oz. I'll do my best!

In Christ,
Oz

Much, much love,
The Barrd

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

You are really stretching hermeneutics big time to make these verses you have quoted refer to being 'slain in the Spirit'. The context of these quotes tells a very different story.

So do you believe that a person needs the initial evidence of speaking in tongues to demonstrate he/she has been filled with the Holy Spirit? Is that your theology?

Oz

Well as the vernacular is NOT in the Bible, I can only use verses that show how God can incapacitate some, so yes it would be in the vain of being incapacitated.

I believe a person NEEDS the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, as Paul taught in Acts 19:1-7 and I also believe receiving it causes one to speak in NEW tongues. The precedent is set in Acts.

 

[StanJ]

Perhaps!

The Nizkor Project has a very accessible list of logical fallacies that people often use when online or in person. I encounter them often when I write an article for an Open Access journal online and the comments come flying in with many logical fallacies. It's almost a full time job challenging these fallacies.

Here's a link to an explanation of a straw man fallacy.

What are some of the straw men you have seen promoted in this thread?

Oz

LOL...really, you think I have that good a memory? I only address them when I see them. ^_^

 

[OzSpen]

To quote what someone said...the verses do not say they weren't slain the spirit. Just one verse for example Acts 9:4 where it says he, Paul fell to the earth.

What made him fall to the earth? He had no reason to in the natural. After all he only saw a bright light. If you know what you are talking about, it is obvious there was something powerful in that bright light. My guess is it was the Holy Spirit. He fell because he was overwhelmed by the power of the Spirit. Which is exactly what happens when one is "Slain by the spirit."

I don't think for one moment he said to himself "Oh, a bright light. I had better fall to the ground."

Fall/fell/slain are all just different words to describe the same experience. Just like the young people that I saw walk through the fire tunnel and as they did so, they fell to the ground. No one touched them or pushed them. They just fell because the power of the Spirit gave them no choice.

You have made some personal assumptions here that we will see are not backed by the text of Acts 9. These presuppositions are:

1. 'He had no reason to in the natural'. Of course he didn't. This was a once off supernatural encounter at Paul's conversion according to Acts 9.
2. 'After all he only saw a bright light'. That's not what the text says. It states, 'And suddenly a light from heaven shone around him' (Ac 9:3 ESV). There is no statement here at all that he SAW a bright light. It is only reported that there was a light that shone. But it DOES say that 'he heard a voice saying to him' (Ac 9:4 ESV). We are not told what his 'falling to the ground' involved. There is no indication whether he was in prayer on the ground or flat on his back or face on the ground - or any other posture. To make this equivalent to slain in the Spirit is a travesty of interpretation.
3. 'If you know what you are talking about, it is obvious there was something powerful in that bright light. My guess is it was the Holy Spirit.'. When I read the text of Acts 9, I find that you have inserted your own presuppositions here. You have told us what this is for you, 'My guess'. It is a guess and is not factual. Saul told us exactly who it was whom he encountered, with his question, 'Who are you, Lord?' (Ac 9:5)
4. 'He fell because he was overwhelmed by the power of the Spirit'. That is not what the text states. When Paul asked, 'Who are you, Lord?' the Lord responded, 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting' (Ac 9:5). It is not being overwhelmed by the power of the Spirit. It is being overwhelmed by Jesus in this supernatural manifestation that led to Saul of Tarsus's conversion.
5. 'Which is exactly what happens when one is "Slain by the spirit."' How I wish that were so. What I have seen of these alleged slayings in the Spirit has been that of existential pneumatological encounters that have zero parallel with Paul's conversion. They are experiential manifestations that pay more attention to the individual experience than to uplifting Jesus.
6. 'I don't think for one moment he said to himself "Oh, a bright light. I had better fall to the ground."' I find this to be sacrilegious. We have recorded in Acts 9 the supernatural conversion of Saul. It was 'the Lord' who spoke to Ananias (Ac 9:10). What was the response of Ananias? 'Here I am, Lord' (Ac 9:10). Do you get it? Ananias knew it was the LORD. It was not, 'Here I am Holy Spirit'. It was the Lord who spoke to Ananias (Ac 9:11-12). Ananias answered, 'Lord, I have heard from many about this man....' (Ac 9:13). Then the Lord, not the Holy Spirit, spoke to Ananias (Ac 9:15-15).
7. 'My guess is it was the Holy Spirit'. It sure is your guess and it is right off track. That is NOT what Ananias reported to Saul. He said, 'Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road....' (Ac 9:17). Do you get it? This was not some slain in the Spirit encounter by Saul. It was the Lord Jesus appearing to Saul to bring him supernaturally to faith in the Lord. It was only when Ananias revealed to Saul that it was the Lord Jesus who appeared to Saul that Ananias said that he 'has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit' (Ac 9:17).
8. 'Fall/fell/slain are all just different words to describe the same experience'. That's your invention. It does not come from the text of Acts 9.
9. 'Just like the young people that I saw walk through the fire tunnel and as they did so, they fell to the ground'. There is zero of a parallel with Saul's conversion - zilch!

I urge you to read the text of Acts 9 before you engage in this kind of eisegesis. You have given us an interpretation that is as postmodern as any postmodern interpreter I have read. However, the Bible requires that we get the meaning directly from/out of the text through exegesis and not through what you have done here by imposing your personal meaning on the text (eisegesis).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Of course we won't talk about her snide below the belt comments will we like "Of course you know the difference don't you..."

Another red herring. I was addressing your flaming and goading comments towards The Barrd, which you refuse to acknowledge, apologise for, and correct. When will you engage in godly language with your tongue and tame it toward The Barrd (see James 3:1-12)? 'How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire! And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness' (James 3:5-6 ESV).

 

[OzSpen]

​Another strawman I see. No one that I can see and certainly I haven't said that God does not love both brothers and sisters.

As for Galatians 3:28 you have taken it out of context. It relates to salvation, not ministries in the body of Christ. As it says in the literal translation....for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many as were baptized into Christ, you put on Christ. There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there is no slave nor free man, there is no male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

There is no male and female and he refers to everyone as "sons." I wonder why? And this verse talks about being baptised so I hope you believe that we should be baptised.

That's exactly what I said. That it refers to salvation.

However, I notice what you missed from my post - convenient for you. But I didn't mess it:

Male and female are one in Christ and God has gifted brothers and sisters with the 'word of instruction/teaching' according to 1 Cor 14:6 (NIV); 1 Cor 14:26 (NIV). The word for instruction/teaching is didache and applies to both brothers and sisters in the congregation as these 2 verses confirm.

I Cor 14: 6 (NIV) and 1 Cor 14:26 (NIV) confirm that the gift of didache, i.e. instruction/teaching, is available to both brothers and sisters in Christ. When will you come up to speed with the biblical evidence? Is there too much of a traditional blockage?

 

[OzSpen]

I Cor 14:6 is about speaking in tongues and prophesying, and he is talking about HIM giving instruction, not women. And in verse 26 he is addressing the brethren. In english that means males. Definitely another strawman.

1 Cor 14:6 (NIV) is addressed to adelphoi, which means brothers and sisters. I've already provided you the exegesis thanks to Arndt & Gingrich. Yes, 1 Cor 14:6 is referring to tongues and the need for 'revelation, knowledge, prophecy or teaching (didache)' to come through this ministry.

English does not determine the meaning of the NT. We depend on our understanding of Greek grammar and usage.

Also, 1 Cor 14:26 (NIV) is dealing with adelphoi who can engage in this ministry that includes a word of didache (instruction, teaching). I've already demonstrated that in a congregation, the Greek means brothers AND sisters. So men and women are included in the ministry of the word of instruction/teaching. That's what the Greek demonstrates. I have been a teacher of NT Greek and continue to use my Greek NT in exegesis.

 

[OzSpen]

The only instruction is that women cannot teach men.

marksman,

That is not the case as I have shown from 1 Cor 14:6 (NIV) and 1 Cor 14:26 (NIV). Adelphoi means brothers and sisters, as translated by the NIV, NLT, NET, God's Word translation, and NRSV. Other translations have 'Or brothers and sisters' as with the ESV.

The largest ever word studies examination of Greek words is in tje Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (G Kittel ed; Tr & ed G W Bromiley into English. 1964. Eerdmans).

In this study on adelphos and adelphe, it expounds the reasons why these words refer to 'physical brotherhood' and the 'spiritual brotherhood' of Israelites or Christians. 'In a more general sense adelphos in the NT denotes "fellow-Christians" or "Christian brothers". 'Many instances may be given from all parts of the NT; there are some 30 in Acts and 130 in Paul (in Kittel, vol 1, 1964:144-145).

So, adelphos refers to fellow Christians, both brothers and sisters in Christ. That's what the etymology of the Greek word teaches. No amount of anti-women theological tradition can contradict this meaning of the Greek noun.

Works consulted
Kittel, G (ed) 1964. Theological dictionary of the New Testament, vol 1. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

Oz

 

[Barrd]

Wow....I never meant to stir up so much controversy.

However, the Bible does not have any support whatsoever for the phenomenon known as "slain in the spirit".
There is certainly no support for such nonsense as "holy laughter" or "drunk in the spirit" or people behaving like farm animals "in the spirit", or this thing Marksman calls a "tunnel of fire".
Jesus did not practice such things, or teach such things to his followers.
When He left for the final time, He gave His apostles specific instructions:

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Notice three things:
They were to baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

I have said, and I believe, that each person who accepts Christ as his/her Savior receives the gift of the Holy Spirit. No exceptions.
Yes, I know that there were some folks in Acts who, having received John's baptism, had not received the HS...however, I can confidently say that, in our day, there isn't one single person who was baptized by John the Baptist. I'm fairly sure that anyone today who has received a Christian baptism was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

They were to teach the things that Jesus had commanded them. What things? I would refer you to the four gospels. You will find things like:

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

or this:

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

or this:

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

or finally, this:

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Finally, He left His apostles...and us...with a promise:

lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Oh, wait! I nearly forgot the most important thing of all!

All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

In my humble opinion, for what it's worth, I think we are spending way too much time worrying about what is essentially a show, and not nearly enough time concerning ourselves with the things Christ thought were important...like love.

 

[OzSpen]

Eleven out of the 12 translations of the bible I have interpret 1 Cor 14:26 "What shall we say then brethren..." What you are saying is that these 11 are wrong. And my charismatic Brethren in the UK didn't cut anything out as they didn't need to. They just followed the teaching of 11 of the 12 translations of scripture which any sensible person would do.

​I have no idea if they are associated with the Exclusive Brethren as I never attend it and as there was no advertising one could not find out and I wasn't interested enough to ask questions.

Yours is a very selective sampling and it comes without an examination of the etymology of adelphos (brother and sister).

 

[OzSpen]

48 years...how wonderful, Oz.
As you may or may not know, I was widowed very young...left with seven kids, no insurance, and no marketable skills...but I managed to keep my family together, get myself an associate's degree, and find a respectable job that allowed us to live fairly well.
When I say, treasure what you have with your lovely wife, I am being very, very serious, as I know how easily it can be taken away.
I offer, then, this blessing for you both:

Wishing you a house full of sunshine,
And hearts full of cheer, ​

Love that grows deeper ​

Each day of the year.​

Well, Oz, I have this friend who has become quite dear to my heart...he is a scholar, you see...and I believe I am benefiting from his scholarship, as well as his friendship.
And I thank God for giving me the opportunity of knowing that Aussie bloke... :wub:
I do hope the lovely Desley doesn't mind me kissing you on your cheek...I've a hug for her, as well, just for being wise enough to marry my friend and make him the happy man that he is.


Thank you for pointing that out, Oz.

Some men are intimidated by a strong woman, although I have never understood why. Inferiority complex, perhaps...a need to dominate? I would advise any woman to steer clear of such men...

Thanks, Oz. I'll do my best!


Much, much love,
The Barrd

The Barrd,

No, I did not know your personal circumstances. You are an amazing lady. May the Lord continue to bless and encourage you in your ministry. Are you attending a church where women's ministry is appreciated and affirmed?

I am blessed with a wife who fits that of Prov 31:11-31 (ESV). She is an excellent wife who fears the Lord. On this Monday morning as I write I can hear her on the vacuum cleaner giving the house a once over before she mops the tiles. She is an impeccable house keeper, wonderful cook, very gifted pianist, and one who has memorised entire chapters of the NT in the NIV, e.g. Romans, Hebrews, 1 Peter, and Philippians. She's a very competent Bible study leader and treasurer of our church's women's group.

Thank you for your very kind wishes towards me. I hope you have picked up on a few of my articles on my homepage, Truth Challenge, on women in ministry. A search on that site will find them. I have written a new article, based on what I encountered during the Christmas season, How to Cut Christ out of Christmas.

I'm sure it's OK with Desley to get a 'kiss' on the Internet cheek.

Because of Jesus,
Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Well as the vernacular is NOT in the Bible, I can only use verses that show how God can incapacitate some, so yes it would be in the vain of being incapacitated.

I believe a person NEEDS the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, as Paul taught in Acts 19:1-7 and I also believe receiving it causes one to speak in NEW tongues. The precedent is set in Acts.

Stan,

My reasons for not believing the baptism of the Holy Spirit is accompanied by tongues is examined in my article, Tongues and the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. I used to believe that but now any more, after I examined the biblical evidence.

Oz