SLAIN IN THE SPIRIT?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
4,798
111
63
70
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
The Barrd said:
Of course not, Stan. There is no need for you to say such a thing.


Why are you here, Stan? Are you here to learn? Or do you see yourself as a teacher?
There are those here that I can learn from, and there are those who have nothing to teach me. There may even be one or two that might learn something from me.

I'm really not that interested. I read what he had to say, and I checked it out with the Bible.
And what I found was that there is no real support in the verses he listed.
OK, so why did you?

I am here to discuss the Bible, and that means you have to know what you're discussing. I learn everyday, but not usually here. There are one or two I find very wise in God's word and I respect them for it. No I don't see myself as a teacher but some have said I could be....that was long ago and far away, when I was considering becoming a pastor. I realized I was NOT diplomatic enough, so I gave up the endeavour.

Well that is not surprising given what you've posted here, but I wasn't about to waste my time saying it all myself....AGAIN.
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
4,798
111
63
70
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
mjrhealth said:
Can you imagine what it would be liek if christians got on there knees before God and cried "teach me", the whole world would be rocked. But who need God, who need teh Holy Spirirt when we have men to teach us and the bible.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Belongs to nothing and no one else
Jesus made it very clear that HE gave teachers, the Holy Spirit and that we are to use the written word. Are you trying to tell us that Jesus was wrong and only YOU have the inside track. Sadly this is what many people resort to when they CAN'T prove their opinion through the existing word of God. God never dealt with people direct, EXCEPT through the prophets. Are you a prophet?
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
marksman said:
Whatever a red herring logical fallacy is. Try putting it in everyday language. We are not all as clever as you.

And you missed the point of the post which was that I do not base my study of anything on one person's views or one verse of scripture. I canvass varying viewpoints and the overall revelation of scripture.
I gave you a link that provides the meaning of a red herring fallacy. Here it is again: That's a red herring logical fallacy of a response.

What is there in this description that you don't understand?
 

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Feb 27, 2008
5,578
2,446
113
82
Melbourne Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
OzSpen said:
I gave you a link that provides the meaning of a red herring fallacy. Here it is again: That's a red herring logical fallacy of a response.

What is there in this description that you don't understand?
Now that I know what a red herring fallacy is, I am pleased to say that my comment was not a red herring fallacy. And for your information, autistic people do not always see what is obvious...to others. Until they have computed it and that can take time, it is double dutch to them. In this case, it was nothing more than some underlined words for emphasis.
 

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Feb 27, 2008
5,578
2,446
113
82
Melbourne Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
The Barrd said:
If you are always looking for a fight, you will certainly find one.

I'm not even going to comment on your demon possessed lesbian feminist snake...
Autistic people are NEVER looking for a fight. They are only looking for the obvious as that is all they can do. When you get into nuances or innuendo, they are out cold.

​I would advise you not to comment if you have no experience of same.
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
2,992
54
0
73
...following a Jewish carpenter...
StanJ said:
Jesus made it very clear that HE gave teachers, the Holy Spirit and that we are to use the written word. Are you trying to tell us that Jesus was wrong and only YOU have the inside track. Sadly this is what many people resort to when they CAN'T prove their opinion through the existing word of God. God never dealt with people direct, EXCEPT through the prophets. Are you a prophet?
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Do you believe that, Stan? Do Jesus' followers still hear His voice?
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

We must know our Master's voice...for there are strangers who will try to fool us into following them...
Do you believe that, Stan?

I do.
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
4,798
111
63
70
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
The Barrd said:
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Do you believe that, Stan? Do Jesus' followers still hear His voice?
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

We must know our Master's voice...for there are strangers who will try to fool us into following them...
Do you believe that, Stan?
I do.
Yes Barrd, and when He was here, they DID.
John 10 was from Jesus' mouth for that day, in the PRESENT tense. Remember He said he HAD two pens of sheep, not was going to have. He came for the lost sheep and those that followed Him KNEW He was their saviour.
NOW, no man comes to Him unless the father draws him....that's pretty much Christianity 101 Barrd.
 

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Feb 27, 2008
5,578
2,446
113
82
Melbourne Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
The Barrd said:
I guess you must be involved in a separate discussion. I am discussing the gifts of the Holy Spirit...what He does, and what He does not do.

By the way, the word you were looking for is "penchant"...not "penchance". Just trying to help you out.


Do you see a difference between the things Jesus teaches and the Word of God?
That is interesting...
You do know that Jesus is God manifested in the flesh, I hope?
Therefore, every word out of His mouth is the Word of God....
Were you? This is what you said...What we were discussing was gifts of the Holy Spirit. How you get that having a church building or driving a car are gifts of the Holy Spirit is beyond me. You drew that conclusion and I asked you where I said that. Still waiting for your answer.

Do you see the difference?

You do know that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh...I hope.
 

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Feb 27, 2008
5,578
2,446
113
82
Melbourne Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
OzSpen said:
Stan,

You are really stretching hermeneutics big time to make these verses you have quoted refer to being 'slain in the Spirit'. The context of these quotes tells a very different story.

So do you believe that a person needs the initial evidence of speaking in tongues to demonstrate he/she has been filled with the Holy Spirit? Is that your theology?

Oz
To quote what someone said...the verses do not say they weren't slain the spirit. Just one verse for example Acts 9:4 where it says he, Paul fell to the earth.

What made him fall to the earth? He had no reason to in the natural. After all he only saw a bright light. If you know what you are talking about, it is obvious there was something powerful in that bright light. My guess is it was the Holy Spirit. He fell because he was overwhelmed by the power of the Spirit. Which is exactly what happens when one is "Slain by the spirit."

I don't think for one moment he said to himself "Oh, a bright light. I had better fall to the ground."

Fall/fell/slain are all just different words to describe the same experience. Just like the young people that I saw walk through the fire tunnel and as they did so, they fell to the ground. No one touched them or pushed them. They just fell because the power of the Spirit gave them no choice.
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
The Barrd said:
Oz

I think it is very sad, when a church denies women the right to participate in the leadership. It is like denying them needed nourishment.
Yes, there are basic differences between men and women....and viva la difference!...and these are not all only physical differences.
But there is no reason whatsoever why a woman can not be as good a teacher as a man.
Don't we have female teachers in adult education? Female professors who teach college-level subjects? And the men who are their students have no problem learning from them.
I'm sure that Paul's instructions to Timothy had to do with the cult of Diana that was prevalent in Ephesus, as you pointed out.

The Bible has many stories of women in leadership positions...women chosen by God to fulfill His purposes.

Deborah immediately comes to mind...a woman who was a warrior and who, with Barak, led Israel in battle against the armies of Sisera, who was defeated by a woman. She (Deborah) was an amazing lady.

I will continue to say that God loves His daughters every bit as much as He loves His sons, and He puts no difference between them. God bless the men, and the women, who have been chosen by God to lead and to teach His people.

I am proud to call this Aussie bloke my friend.

In Christian love,
The Barrd
The Barrd,

You need to be able to demonstrate that this is what God teaches in the authoritative Scripture. I have been seeking God and pursuing this study for many years. From my study of Scripture, I have found that there has been a censorship of women in ministry that I am not convinced is supported by Scripture. Yes, isolated verses that are cherry picked seem to support an anti-women in teaching ministry (e.g. 1 Tim 2:12 ESV).

I have taken the following information from my article, Should churches have female deacons? In this article I deal with women’s ministry in the OT, including that of Deborah and Huldah. Evidence of women presbyters (elders) has been found in archaeological sites.

Archaeology, tombstones & women presbyters

slide4.jpg

Catacombs of Priscilla, Rome

It was pointed out that in the first four centuries of the NT era, archaeology has found grave sites that confirmed there were women presbyters. ‘One tombstone reads, (don’t remember the names in order) ___ the daughter of Lois the presbyter’.[8] He stated that in many areas around the Mediterranean Sea, there have been discovered paintings of women in leadership positions and inscriptions in churches and on tombstones. These women are named and their positions are that of bishops and deacons. His view was that ‘archaeology demands that we reconcile what we have from Paul with the evidence’.[9]

What is the evidence from archaeology? ‘As far as the statement that there is no tradition of women priests, there’s good evidence from archaeology and iconography, in areas of what is now the former Yugoslavia, and southern Italy, that there were women presbyters, leaders of Christian communities in those places, in the early centuries. And a presbyter is what we would call a priest today’ (Johnson 2010:98).

Aisha Taylor, a Roman Catholic, researched the archaeological evidence for women’s leadership in the early centuries of the church. She found that
there are iconography pieces all throughout the Mediterranean region … and they are not only mosaics[10] and frescos.[11] They are also inscriptions on tombs and artwork. They are on catacomb walls and on church walls, in very holy places. One of these is in the Catacombs of Priscilla.[12] It’s a second century fresco and it pictures a woman presiding at Eucharist, which is a role reserved specifically for priests, and only for priests. Another example is the fourth-century inscription on a tombstone in Jerusalem where it says in Greek, “Here lies the minister and bride of Christ, Sophia the Deacon, a second Phoebe.” This is also important in that it relates to the biblical person of Phoebe, a New Testament woman, who Paul references as a deacon. And the other important thing about that is the word for deacon, diakonos, is the word that’s used for Paul’s ministry as well. So it really shows an egalitarian form of ministry in the early church. These women had the same ministry as Paul….

I think the evidence is very convincing and one of the reasons is because of the large number of archaeological finds around the Mediterranean. In almost every major Christian community in the early church, you’ll find images of women as priests, bishops or deacons. And that’s convincing evidence. The other pieces that are important are the inscriptions on tombstones. People wanted future generations to remember these women as leaders in the church. They put them in the holiest places they could: in churches and on tombstones….

We know that in the first nine centuries in many places in the church, women were serving in ordained deacon roles. The scholarly evidence shows that there are sixty-one inscriptions and forty-one literary references to women deacons in the church.

One of the foremost scholars on women’s ordination is John Wijngaards. He was a former Roman Catholic priest and he actually left the priesthood over women’s ordination. In 2006, he published his book, Women Deacons in the Early Church,[13] so evidence is getting out there’ (Aisha Taylor 2010:92, 93).
This is not Scripture, but it is evidence of what happened after the Scriptures were written.

For many years I was captive to this anti-women in public teaching ministry among a mixed group. It came from the traditional evangelical church of my upbringing (Baptist). However, as I read the Scriptures and studied deeply, I found too many anomalies in the traditional view. I want to make it clear that my conclusions are based on the exegesis of Scripture and not from the influence of women's liberation. Here is one example for you to chew on. It's the one that is constantly dragged out to PROVE that women should not teach in the church. I'm speaking of 1 Tim 2:12-15 (ESV):

12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
When I was able to work out the meaning of the beginning of v 15, 'Yet she will be saved through childbearing', was I able to unravel the meaning of v. 12. Also, I had to read 1 Tim 2:12 (ESV) in the broader context of what was happening in 1 Timothy and the Ephesian church (1 Tim 1:3 ESV). I was not trying to liberate women in ministry (although that was needed), I was also trying to make sense of 1 Cor 11-14 (ESV) where a wife was able to prophesy (1 Cor 11:5 ESV) - which one generally can't do as a silent woman (unless she writes it down) - and what was stated in 1 Cor 14:33-34 (ESV), 'As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says'.

How is it possible for a woman to be told to 'keep silent' yet a woman (a wife) can prophesy? God is a God of truth so he does not allow contradictions. I found that I had too many contradictions in my teaching when I closed down women in ministry. I still have a few fuzzy edges to knock off in gaining a better understanding of women in ministry. You can see some of my teaching on this vital subject in the topic, 'Women in ministry' in the right hand menu on my homepage, Truth Challenge. I have 12 articles on the topic. You'll also see a picture of my darling wife, Desley, and me.

Notes

[8] I have not located this statement in an online search.

[9] Christian Forums.com, Hank77#23. Available at: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/female-deacons.7904366/ (Accessed 23 September 2015).

[10] A mosaic is ‘a picture or pattern produced by arranging together small pieces of stone, tile, glass, etc.’ (Oxford Dictionaries 2015. S v mosaic).

[11] A fresco is ‘a painting done rapidly in watercolour on wet plaster on a wall or ceiling, so that the colours penetrate the plaster and become fixed as it dries’ (Oxford Dictionaries 2015. S v fresco).

[12] They are in Rome. ‘The Catacombs of Priscilla sit on the Via Salaria, with its entrance in the convent of the Benedictine Sisters of Priscilla. It is mentioned in all of the most ancient documents on Christian topography and liturgy in Rome; because of the great number of martyrs buried within it, it was called “regina catacumbarum – the queen of the catacombs.” Originally dug out from the second to fifth centuries, it began as a series of underground burial chambers, of which the most important are the “arenarium” or sand-quarry, the cryptoporticus, (an underground area to get away from the summer heat), and the hypogeum with the tombs of the Acilius Glabrio family)’ (Catacombs of Priscilla, available at: http://www.catacombepriscilla.com/index_en.html, accessed 25 September 2015).

[13] The full details for author and book are, J N M Wijngaards 2006. Women Deacons in the Early Church: Historical Texts and Contemporary Debates. New York: Crossroad Publishing Company (Herder & Herder).


Works consulted
Johnson, A 2010. Roman Catholic Woman Bishop, in M E Fiedler (ed), Breaking through the Stained Glass Ceiling: Women Religious Leaders in Their Own Words, 96-99. New York, NY: Seabury Books.

Taylor, A 2010. Former executive director, Women’s Ordination Conference on the archaeological evidence for women’s leadership, in M E Fiedler (ed), Breaking through the Stained Glass Ceiling: Women Religious Leaders in Their Own Words, 91-96. New York, NY: Seabury Books.
 

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Feb 27, 2008
5,578
2,446
113
82
Melbourne Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
OzSpen said:
It has more to do with his inflammatory, ungodly language towards you in this public forum. This kind of attack on you should not be allowed on any Christian forum.
Of course we won't talk about her snide below the belt comments will we like "Of course you know the difference don't you..."
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
2,992
54
0
73
...following a Jewish carpenter...
marksman said:
Autistic people are NEVER looking for a fight. They are only looking for the obvious as that is all they can do. When you get into nuances or innuendo, they are out cold.

​I would advise you not to comment if you have no experience of same.
Your comments seem to indicate otherwise.
For instance, from your post #267:

"I cut my teeth debating atheists at university so one has to be very sharp and certain when you do that because if you are not they will quickly expose the flaws in your arguments. When you do that you have to canvas every angle to cover yourself and mount a strong argument. Rely on ONE point only and you are dead meat. "

Want to tell us again how you don't go looking for a fight?
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
2,992
54
0
73
...following a Jewish carpenter...
marksman said:
Were you? This is what you said...What we were discussing was gifts of the Holy Spirit. How you get that having a church building or driving a car are gifts of the Holy Spirit is beyond me. You drew that conclusion and I asked you where I said that. Still waiting for your answer.

Do you see the difference?

You do know that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh...I hope.
Why would you inject buildings or cars into a discussion about the Holy Spirit?
There is no reason, obviously.
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
marksman said:
Now that I know what a red herring fallacy is, I am pleased to say that my comment was not a red herring fallacy. And for your information, autistic people do not always see what is obvious...to others. Until they have computed it and that can take time, it is double dutch to them. In this case, it was nothing more than some underlined words for emphasis.
It was a red herring because you refused to engage with me on the meaning of 1 Tim 2:12 (ESV) after I provided N T Wright's exegesis of the text. All you wanted to tell me was that you want to a Brethren Bible College and you don't base your teaching on one person's view.

That was NOT the topic of my post. The topic was a broader understanding that the one you are giving of 1 Tim 2:12 (ESV). But you weren't interested in the material given by N T Wright to refute your view.

So what did you do? You gave your red herring fallacy of response to divert attention away from the topic.

Oz
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
marksman said:
Of course we won't talk about her snide below the belt comments will we like "Of course you know the difference don't you..."
Now it's time to apologise to The Barrd for your inflammatory and ungodly comments to her. I was embarrased that a fellow Aussie would treat a woman like this. Please quit it and repent of your attitude to her. Can't you handle those who oppose your anti-women in teaching ministry?
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
2,992
54
0
73
...following a Jewish carpenter...
OzSpen said:
The Barrd,

You need to be able to demonstrate that this is what God teaches in the authoritative Scripture. I have been seeking God and pursuing this study for many years. From my study of Scripture, I have found that there has been a censorship of women in ministry that I am not convinced is supported by Scripture. Yes, isolated verses that are cherry picked seem to support an anti-women in teaching ministry (e.g. 1 Tim 2:12 ESV).

I have taken the following information from my article, Should churches have female deacons? In this article I deal with women’s ministry in the OT, including that of Deborah and Huldah. Evidence of women presbyters (elders) has been found in archaeological sites.

Archaeology, tombstones & women presbyters

slide4.jpg

Catacombs of Priscilla, Rome

It was pointed out that in the first four centuries of the NT era, archaeology has found grave sites that confirmed there were women presbyters. ‘One tombstone reads, (don’t remember the names in order) ___ the daughter of Lois the presbyter’.[8] He stated that in many areas around the Mediterranean Sea, there have been discovered paintings of women in leadership positions and inscriptions in churches and on tombstones. These women are named and their positions are that of bishops and deacons. His view was that ‘archaeology demands that we reconcile what we have from Paul with the evidence’.[9]

What is the evidence from archaeology? ‘As far as the statement that there is no tradition of women priests, there’s good evidence from archaeology and iconography, in areas of what is now the former Yugoslavia, and southern Italy, that there were women presbyters, leaders of Christian communities in those places, in the early centuries. And a presbyter is what we would call a priest today’ (Johnson 2010:98).

Aisha Taylor, a Roman Catholic, researched the archaeological evidence for women’s leadership in the early centuries of the church. She found that

This is not Scripture, but it is evidence of what happened after the Scriptures were written.

For many years I was captive to this anti-women in public teaching ministry among a mixed group. It came from the traditional evangelical church of my upbringing (Baptist). However, as I read the Scriptures and studied deeply, I found too many anomalies in the traditional view. I want to make it clear that my conclusions are based on the exegesis of Scripture and not from the influence of women's liberation. Here is one example for you to chew on. It's the one that is constantly dragged out to PROVE that women should not teach in the church. I'm speaking of 1 Tim 2:12-15 (ESV):


When I was able to work out the meaning of the beginning of v 15, 'Yet she will be saved through childbearing', was I able to unravel the meaning of v. 12. Also, I had to read 1 Tim 2:12 (ESV) in the broader context of what was happening in 1 Timothy and the Ephesian church (1 Tim 1:3 ESV). I was not trying to liberate women in ministry (although that was needed), I was also trying to make sense of 1 Cor 11-14 (ESV) where a wife was able to prophesy (1 Cor 11:5 ESV) - which one generally can't do as a silent woman (unless she writes it down) - and what was stated in 1 Cor 14:33-34 (ESV), 'As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says'.

How is it possible for a woman to be told to 'keep silent' yet a woman (a wife) can prophesy? God is a God of truth so he does not allow contradictions. I found that I had too many contradictions in my teaching when I closed down women in ministry. I still have a few fuzzy edges to knock off in gaining a better understanding of women in ministry. You can see some of my teaching on this vital subject in the topic, 'Women in ministry' in the right hand menu on my homepage, Truth Challenge. I have 12 articles on the topic. You'll also see a picture of my darling wife, Desley, and me.

Notes

[8] I have not located this statement in an online search.

[9] Christian Forums.com, Hank77#23. Available at: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/female-deacons.7904366/ (Accessed 23 September 2015).

[10] A mosaic is ‘a picture or pattern produced by arranging together small pieces of stone, tile, glass, etc.’ (Oxford Dictionaries 2015. S v mosaic).

[11] A fresco is ‘a painting done rapidly in watercolour on wet plaster on a wall or ceiling, so that the colours penetrate the plaster and become fixed as it dries’ (Oxford Dictionaries 2015. S v fresco).

[12] They are in Rome. ‘The Catacombs of Priscilla sit on the Via Salaria, with its entrance in the convent of the Benedictine Sisters of Priscilla. It is mentioned in all of the most ancient documents on Christian topography and liturgy in Rome; because of the great number of martyrs buried within it, it was called “regina catacumbarum – the queen of the catacombs.” Originally dug out from the second to fifth centuries, it began as a series of underground burial chambers, of which the most important are the “arenarium” or sand-quarry, the cryptoporticus, (an underground area to get away from the summer heat), and the hypogeum with the tombs of the Acilius Glabrio family)’ (Catacombs of Priscilla, available at: http://www.catacombepriscilla.com/index_en.html, accessed 25 September 2015).

[13] The full details for author and book are, J N M Wijngaards 2006. Women Deacons in the Early Church: Historical Texts and Contemporary Debates. New York: Crossroad Publishing Company (Herder & Herder).


Works consulted
Johnson, A 2010. Roman Catholic Woman Bishop, in M E Fiedler (ed), Breaking through the Stained Glass Ceiling: Women Religious Leaders in Their Own Words, 96-99. New York, NY: Seabury Books.

Taylor, A 2010. Former executive director, Women’s Ordination Conference on the archaeological evidence for women’s leadership, in M E Fiedler (ed), Breaking through the Stained Glass Ceiling: Women Religious Leaders in Their Own Words, 91-96. New York, NY: Seabury Books.
First of all, Desley is lovely. You are a lucky guy, Oz.
Treasure what the two of you have...it is rare and priceless.

I've said often enough, Oz, that I am no scholar. I feel very lucky to have met you.
It is just common sense to me that God loves His daughters every bit as much as He loves His sons.
Christians, of all people, ought to be past the nonsense over sexual discrimination. Jesus never discriminated against women.
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
marksman said:
That is your perception, not mine and as I don't know you from a bar of soap, I am not going to start backtracking on what I said. When she apologizes for calling the work of the Holy Spirit the work of satan (does that bother you?) then I might listen.

None of those verses say that they taught men.

"These two different translations show some of the dimensions of the difficulties in translating this verse" is what I said so what is your problem? And how can Junia be a kinsman if he is a woman?

I have NEVER said that women are excluded from public ministry in the church.
Back at #241 you wrote: 'Not one of these verses say that they taught men. You are getting real desperate'. So you did deny that certain verses, including Rom 16:7, did not say that women taught men. Junian is the feminine accusative for Junia. Douglas Moo's commentary in The New International Commentary on the New Testament series, The Epistle to the Romans (Eerdmans 1996) states that

probably, then, "Junia" was the wife of Andronicus (note the other husband and wife pairs in this list, Prisca and Aquila [v. 3] and [probably], Philogus and Julia.... The first description might mean taht Andronicus and Junia were "esteemed by the apostles." But it is more natural to translated "esteemed among the apostles." And it is because Paul thus calls Junia(s) an "apostle" that earlier interpreters tended to argue that Paul must be referring to a man; for they had difficulty imagining that a woman could hold such authority in the early church. [v. 15]. Yet it is just for this reason that many contemporary scholars are eager to identify Junia(s) as a woman, for Pauline recognition of a female apostle would support the notion that the NT places no restrictions on the ministry of women.

But many scholars on both sides of this issue are guilty of accepting too readily a key supposition in this line of reasoning: that "apostle" here refers to an authoritative leadership position such as that held by the "Twelve" and by Paul. In fact, Paul often uses the title "apostle" in a "looser" sense: sometimes simply to denote a "messenger" or "emissary" and sometimes to denote a "commissioned missionary" (Moo 1996:923-924).
You state,
I NEVER said women cannot prophesy.

​Putting words in my mouth wil not solve anything and will not make your arguments any more authoritative.
Doesn't prophesy then involve public ministry? How do you reconcile women able to prophesy and being told to 'keep silent in the churches' (1 Cor 14:34 ESV)? Or do you understand this as women writing down their prophecies and keeping their mouths shut?

You may be happy with error or calling the work of the Holy Spirit the work of satan but I am not and have never been.
Where did I state that? I have never ever called the work of the Holy Spirit the work of Satan.

And no doubt our resident female authority on the scriptures will tell us you can't find this in the bible so it must be counterfeit.
That is a disgusting, pejorative put down. Please quit that kind of attack. We don't need it on this forum.

Oz
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
marksman said:
No, I am not part of the Brethren movement. In England, I studied at a Brethren Bible College and then spent 10 years in a charismatic Brethren assembly. I don't know much about the brethren movement here as like all denominations they express themselves in different ways.

Where I live there are two Brethren Assemblies in the one town. One is now called the community church, has a paid pastor and youth pastor. it tries to emulate the charismatic church but fails miserably as they have a notice in the entrance that says "We do not accept the gifts of the Spirit here."

You would not know the other assembly existed. It meets in a building behind tall fences. Has no signage outside and it does no advertising. I pass it on the way to our house fellowship during the week. I usually follow a line of expensive cars turning right into the building.

In my charismatic Brethren Assembly in the UK, women were allowed to do a lot of things. The one thing that was missing from their repertoire was teaching men. Otherwise, everything was open to them. Our first national conference was organised by a committee of five people. Three men and two women. I was one of the men and my wife was one of the women.
Is the second Brethren assembly you mentioned associated with the Exclusive Brethren? I went to school with a family from this group. We only found out via the grapevine where they met. There is no sign out front to say that it was a meeting hall for the Exclusives.

So your charismatic UK Brethren assembly would not allow women to teach men. Was 1 Cor 14:26 cut out of your/their Bible (along with some other verses that use the Greek, didache)? 'What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up' (1 Cor 14:26 NIV).

What is a word of 'instruction'? It is a didache, which has the meaning of 'teaching as an activity, instruction.... speak in the form of teaching (1 Cor 14:6); 'in every kind of instruction' (1 Tim 4:2); 'Jesus' teaching activity' (Mk 4:2; 12:38). 'Teaching, of what is taught ... [by] the apostles' (Ac 2:42; 5:28; 13:12; Rom 16:17; 1 Cor 14:26; 2 John 1:9ff; Rev 2:24). The word refers to 'teaching ... in accordance with the teaching' (Tit 1:9); 'teaching about baptisms (Heb 6:2); 'patterns of teaching (of Christianity)' (Rom 6:17) [Arndt & Gingrich 1957:191].

According to 1 Cor 14:26, who are allowed to deliver this word of teaching? The verse tells us, 'brothers and sisters'. When adelphoi (plural of adelphos) is used in a congregational setting, it refers to brothers and sisters and not just brothers. This is confirmed by Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon 1(957:15-16).

In this verse we have a clear example of brothers AND sisters being available to provide instruction/teaching to the church in a mixed gathering. I find it disappointing that your blockage in relation to women in ministry can be easily challenged, but that doesn't seem to come into your calculations.

I was stuck in your kind of rut myself about 20 years ago until I was shaken by careful exegesis. I have a high view of Scripture, believing in the inerrancy of the original documents, so I want to hear what the Scriptures say. I found previously that I was articulating what I had been taught by rote from my Baptist upbringing but without thinking through the biblical material.

I thank the Lord for the new light He has given me.

Sincerely in Christ,
Oz

Works consulted

Arndt, W F & Gingrich, F W 1957. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press (limited edition licensed to Zondervan Publishing House).
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
The Barrd said:
First of all, Desley is lovely. You are a lucky guy, Oz.
Treasure what the two of you have...it is rare and priceless.

I've said often enough, Oz, that I am no scholar. I feel very lucky to have met you.
It is just common sense to me that God loves His daughters every bit as much as He loves His sons.
Christians, of all people, ought to be past the nonsense over sexual discrimination. Jesus never discriminated against women.
Thank you The Barrd for your lovely compliment re Desley and me. In 2016 we celebrate our 48th wedding anniversary (5.5 months time), DV.

You don't have to be a scholar. That calling is to only a few. However you can benefit from their scholarship if they make it available in reasonably understandable language. That can be a hindrance for some scholars. With the arrival of the Internet more is available online. Mine is available through Creative Commons open access, as long as it is not for sale and as long as credit is given.

We have Scripture to confirm that God loves both brothers and sisters in Christ. Gal 3:28 (NIV) puts it so clearly, 'There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus'. Male and female are one in Christ and God has gifted brothers and sisters with the 'word of instruction/teaching' according to 1 Cor 14:6 (NIV); 1 Cor 14:26 (NIV). The word for instruction/teaching is didache and applies to both brothers and sisters in the congregation as these 2 verses confirm.

There is a tricky verse at 1 Tim 2:12 that is generally brought up over and over by those opposed to female teachers to a mixed group of men and women. I have attempted to address some of these issues in, Must women never teach men in the church?
It's a few years since I wrote this article and it probably needs a review and second edition.

Keep up the good work of challenging those with opposing opinions - but not resorting to what one person has done to you with his flaming/goading approach.

In Christ,
Oz
 
Status
Not open for further replies.