SLAIN IN THE SPIRIT?

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marksman

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StanJ said:
You actually have to SHOW it to make it conclusive. What 25 verses?
Act_14:23 And having handpicked elders for them in every assembly, having prayed with fastings, they committed them to the Lord into whom they had believed.


Act_15:2 Then dissension and not a little disputation with them having taken place by Paul and Barnabas, they appointed Paul and Barnabas and some others of them to go up into Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this question.


Act_15:4 And having arrived in Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the assembly and the apostles and the elders. And they reported what things God did with them.


Act_15:6 And the apostles and the elders were assembled to see about this matter.


Act_15:22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with all the assembly, to send chosen men from them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, Judas having been surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers,


Act_15:23 writing by their hand these things: The apostles and the elders and the brothers, to those throughout Antioch, and Syria, and Cilicia, brothers from the nations: Greeting.


Act_16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered to them the need to keep the decrees that had been determined by the apostles and the elders in Jerusalem.


Act_20:17 And sending to Ephesus from Miletus, he called for the elders of the assembly.


Act_21:18 And on the next day, Paul went in with us to James. And all the elders came.


1Ti_5:17 Let the elders who take the lead well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those laboring in Word and teaching.


Tit_1:5 For this cause I left you in Crete, that you might set in order the things lacking and appoint elders in every city, as I ordered you:


Heb_11:2 For by this the elders obtained witness.


Jas_5:14 Is any among you sick? Let him call the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.


1Pe_5:1 I, a fellow elder, exhort the elders among you, I being also witness of the sufferings of Christ, and being sharer of the glory about to be revealed:


Rev_4:4 And around the throne I saw twenty four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty four elders sitting, having been clothed in white garments. And they had golden crowns on their heads.


Rev_4:10 the twenty four elders fall down before Him sitting on the throne; and they will worship the One living to the ages of the ages, and will throw their crowns before the throne, saying,


Rev_5:5 And one of the elders said to me, Do not weep. Behold, the Lion being of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, overcame so as to open the scroll, and to loose its seven seals.


Rev_5:6 And I saw, and behold, in the midst of the throne, and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, was a Lamb standing, as having been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, having been sent out into all the earth.


Rev_5:8 And when He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having harps, and golden bowls full of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints.


Rev_5:11 And I saw, and I heard a sound of many angels around the throne, and the living creatures, and the elders, and their number was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,


Rev_5:14 And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the twenty four elders fell down and worshiped the One living forever and ever.


Rev_7:11 And all the angels and of the elders and of the four living creatures stood around the throne. And they fell before the throne on their faces, and worshiped God,


Rev_7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, These, the ones having been clothed in the white robes, who are they, and from where did they come?


Rev_11:16 And the twenty four elders sitting before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,


Rev_14:3 And they sing as a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders. And no one was able to learn the song except the hundred and forty four thousands, those having been redeemed from the earth.


Rev_19:4 And the twenty four elders, and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God sitting on the throne, saying, Amen! Hallelujah!

In every verse the word Elder means a senior older person and specifically an Israelite Sanhedrist. If that is the meaning, then that excludes women became the Sanhedrin were always men and bearing in mind that the leadership of the New Testament Church was always Elders, not pastors. These Elders had four responsibilities. Oversight, teaching, shepherding and correction.
 

marksman

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The Barrd said:
:rolleyes:

Okay.
Look, guys, this is how it is.
Women are teaching and preaching, and participating in the ministry in every possible way...and God has blessed their efforts.
I know this irks your souls, but that's just the way it is.
If God had a problem with these gals doing what they do, why is He blessing them?

And if God is okay with it, do you really wish to be found fighting against God?

Now, how 'bout we get back to the actual topic of this thread?

If you insist on discussing this, make a new thread where everyone who is interested might have a chance to participate...
And according to scripture there were those who did miracles in the name of Jesus but he rejected them.
 

OzSpen

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StanJ said:
As I said, v36.
Your view that Paul is quoting a letter is only one of the options, and it is not supported by a majority of exegetes, as demonstrated by the material in the links I supplied.

Dr Gordon Fee who is no mean exegete considers that these verses were an interpolation that were added by a scribe later in the transmission process.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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marksman said:
Act_14:23 And having handpicked elders for them in every assembly, having prayed with fastings, they committed them to the Lord into whom they had believed.


Act_15:2 Then dissension and not a little disputation with them having taken place by Paul and Barnabas, they appointed Paul and Barnabas and some others of them to go up into Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this question.


Act_15:4 And having arrived in Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the assembly and the apostles and the elders. And they reported what things God did with them.


Act_15:6 And the apostles and the elders were assembled to see about this matter.


Act_15:22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with all the assembly, to send chosen men from them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, Judas having been surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers,


Act_15:23 writing by their hand these things: The apostles and the elders and the brothers, to those throughout Antioch, and Syria, and Cilicia, brothers from the nations: Greeting.


Act_16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered to them the need to keep the decrees that had been determined by the apostles and the elders in Jerusalem.


Act_20:17 And sending to Ephesus from Miletus, he called for the elders of the assembly.


Act_21:18 And on the next day, Paul went in with us to James. And all the elders came.


1Ti_5:17 Let the elders who take the lead well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those laboring in Word and teaching.


Tit_1:5 For this cause I left you in Crete, that you might set in order the things lacking and appoint elders in every city, as I ordered you:


Heb_11:2 For by this the elders obtained witness.


Jas_5:14 Is any among you sick? Let him call the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.


1Pe_5:1 I, a fellow elder, exhort the elders among you, I being also witness of the sufferings of Christ, and being sharer of the glory about to be revealed:


Rev_4:4 And around the throne I saw twenty four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty four elders sitting, having been clothed in white garments. And they had golden crowns on their heads.


Rev_4:10 the twenty four elders fall down before Him sitting on the throne; and they will worship the One living to the ages of the ages, and will throw their crowns before the throne, saying,


Rev_5:5 And one of the elders said to me, Do not weep. Behold, the Lion being of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, overcame so as to open the scroll, and to loose its seven seals.


Rev_5:6 And I saw, and behold, in the midst of the throne, and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, was a Lamb standing, as having been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, having been sent out into all the earth.


Rev_5:8 And when He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having harps, and golden bowls full of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints.


Rev_5:11 And I saw, and I heard a sound of many angels around the throne, and the living creatures, and the elders, and their number was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,


Rev_5:14 And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the twenty four elders fell down and worshiped the One living forever and ever.


Rev_7:11 And all the angels and of the elders and of the four living creatures stood around the throne. And they fell before the throne on their faces, and worshiped God,


Rev_7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, These, the ones having been clothed in the white robes, who are they, and from where did they come?


Rev_11:16 And the twenty four elders sitting before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,


Rev_14:3 And they sing as a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders. And no one was able to learn the song except the hundred and forty four thousands, those having been redeemed from the earth.


Rev_19:4 And the twenty four elders, and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God sitting on the throne, saying, Amen! Hallelujah!

In every verse the word Elder means a senior older person and specifically an Israelite Sanhedrist. If that is the meaning, then that excludes women became the Sanhedrin were always men and bearing in mind that the leadership of the New Testament Church was always Elders, not pastors. These Elders had four responsibilities. Oversight, teaching, shepherding and correction.

A marvellous list of eisegesis.
 

StanJ

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OzSpen said:
Your view that Paul is quoting a letter is only one of the options, and it is not supported by a majority of exegetes, as demonstrated by the material in the links I supplied.

Dr Gordon Fee who is no mean exegete considers that these verses were an interpolation that were added by a scribe later in the transmission process.

Oz
Yes I have read that POV, but as v36 follows what 34-35 state, it is, IMO, more in keeping with the context.
I'm not a big believer in pseudographic content purported by some, but the following article makes a compelling argument;
https://bible.org/seriespage/6-silent-churches-role-women-1-corinthians-1433b-36
Here is another link that shows a different scenario.
http://fuller.edu/about/women-in-ministry/women-in-ministry--1-corinthians-14-34%E2%80%9335/

Gordon Fee also wrote about this in his book on 1 Corinthians, page 772-773, that these verses do NOT reflect ANY of Paul's teachings nor are consistent with the style being used here. He call them "clearly intruding and thoroughly un-Pauline".

Regardless of which perspective one ascribes to, they both dispel this as a teaching FROM Paul thus NOT inspired of God.
 

StanJ

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marksman said:
In every verse the word Elder means a senior older person and specifically an Israelite Sanhedrist. If that is the meaning, then that excludes women became the Sanhedrin were always men and bearing in mind that the leadership of the New Testament Church was always Elders, not pastors. These Elders had four responsibilities. Oversight, teaching, shepherding and correction.
Actually, Mounce defines the Greek, πρεσβύτερος (presbyteros), as connoting
Definition:


older; ancestral; (n.) in the Gospels and Acts, elder, usually as an official leader of the Jewish community, in the epistles, older man and older woman, who may or may not be official leaders of the church, depending on the context.

Sadly you also insert your POV into the definition and prevaricate about it's true meaning. As Oz states above, a real example of EISEGESIS.
 

marksman

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StanJ said:
Actually, Mounce defines the Greek, πρεσβύτερος (presbyteros), as connoting
Definition:


older; ancestral; (n.) in the Gospels and Acts, elder, usually as an official leader of the Jewish community, in the epistles, older man and older woman, who may or may not be official leaders of the church, depending on the context.

Sadly you also insert your POV into the definition and prevaricate about it's true meaning. As Oz states above, a real example of EISEGESIS.
I am not really interested in what Mounce says. I am more interested what the scripture says. In scripture the word woman does not appear.
 

Barrd

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marksman said:
I am not really interested in what Mounce says. I am more interested what the scripture says. In scripture the word woman does not appear.
You are aware, I'm sure, that scripture was not written in English?
Therefore, the way that the Greek was spoken 2000 years ago is kinda important, if you really want to understand scripture.

It was enough for me to know that in Christ, all the old barriers have been knocked down.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

There is no more "male or female"...we are all one.
It's been that way for over 2000 years.
Get used to it.
 

OzSpen

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marksman said:
A marvelous list of exegesis actually.
Quoting a long list of verses as you did in #422 is just that - quoting verses. It is not engaging in the task of exegesis.

Exegesis means to obtain the meaning out of a text and involves the hermeneutics of a particular text so that it is properly interpreted.

You have not done that. In fact, citing a text without doing exegesis is an excuse for not engaging in exegesis.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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marksman said:
I am not really interested in what Mounce says. I am more interested what the scripture says. In scripture the word woman does not appear.
How do you determine the meaning of presbuteros?

For you to say that the word 'woman' does not appear in Scripture demonstrates your ignorance of NT Greek.

The Greek gune means,

1. A woman of any age, whether a virgin, married or widow;
2. A wife,
a. of a bethrothed woman (source)

The longer you go in this discussion, the more you reveal your ignorance - as demonstrated with your false statement of there being no word for 'woman' in Scripture.

I notice you have a bad habit of making assertions without providing sources for your information. Could they be out of your own mind and on this occasion they are proved to be false?

Oz
 

StanJ

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marksman said:
I am not really interested in what Mounce says. I am more interested what the scripture says. In scripture the word woman does not appear.
and this just proves you do NOT have a teachable spirit, so no use wasting my time repeating myself to you.
 

marksman

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StanJ said:
and this just proves you do NOT have a teachable spirit, so no use wasting my time repeating myself to you.
No it doesn't. all it says is that I am not influenced by every wind of doctrine. I have shelves of commentaries, dictionaries and teaching which shows that I am teachable because if I wasn't I would not buy all those sorts of books. And the fact that I buy on average 20 books a year, mostly teaching says otherwise.

​The bottom line for me is the scriptures and anything or anyone that contradicts what the scriptures say is of no interest to me. The scripture teaches me that the Holy Spirit will lead me into all truth. Unless you believe that you wil never know what the truth is. All you will know is someone's idea of the truth.

​It also says that the foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of man. It doesn't say that the foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of unbelievers. That shows that we need God's foolishness. If God's foolishness is contrary to man's wisdom I am happy to side with God. I am happy to say that over my 63 years as a christian it has stood me in good stead.
 

marksman

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The Barrd said:
You are aware, I'm sure, that scripture was not written in English?
Therefore, the way that the Greek was spoken 2000 years ago is kinda important, if you really want to understand scripture.

It was enough for me to know that in Christ, all the old barriers have been knocked down.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

There is no more "male or female"...we are all one.
It's been that way for over 2000 years.
Get used to it.
​And get used to the idea that that verse has nothing at all to do with leadership in the Church. it refers to salvation but I guess context is not important to you.
 

marksman

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OzSpen said:
How do you determine the meaning of presbuteros?

For you to say that the word 'woman' does not appear in Scripture demonstrates your ignorance of NT Greek.

The Greek gune means,

1. A woman of any age, whether a virgin, married or widow;
2. A wife,
a. of a bethrothed woman (source)

The longer you go in this discussion, the more you reveal your ignorance - as demonstrated with your false statement of there being no word for 'woman' in Scripture.

I notice you have a bad habit of making assertions without providing sources for your information. Could they be out of your own mind and on this occasion they are proved to be false?

Oz
​And you are not so good yourself. I mean, how can a 2. A wife, be of a bethrothed woman (source) whatever a bethrothed woman is.

And I NEVER said a "that the word 'woman' does not appear in Scripture". Never have and never will.

The longer you go in this discussion you show that you put your own spin on things.
 

StanJ

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The Barrd said:
Fair warning, Marksman.
Starting now, I intend to report any abusive posts you might make toward me.
Quite honestly, I'm generally a very patient kind of gal.
But you are getting on my last nerve...
Just put him on ignore. He's not worth the headache Barrd.
 
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