SLAIN IN THE SPIRIT?

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StanJ

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marksman said:
No it doesn't. all it says is that I am not influenced by every wind of doctrine. I have shelves of commentaries, dictionaries and teaching which shows that I am teachable because if I wasn't I would not buy all those sorts of books. And the fact that I buy on average 20 books a year, mostly teaching says otherwise.

​The bottom line for me is the scriptures and anything or anyone that contradicts what the scriptures say is of no interest to me. The scripture teaches me that the Holy Spirit will lead me into all truth. Unless you believe that you wil never know what the truth is. All you will know is someone's idea of the truth.

​It also says that the foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of man. It doesn't say that the foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of unbelievers. That shows that we need God's foolishness. If God's foolishness is contrary to man's wisdom I am happy to side with God. I am happy to say that over my 63 years as a christian it has stood me in good stead.
You even misuse the very scripture you quote from Eph 4:14. That comes AFTER Paul stated WHY Jesus gave us all the offices he lists in verses 11-13. You appear to pick and choose those you accept rather than the other way around. You also don't cite any of those books or authors you say you read. From my POV, you don't sound like somebody who has studied God's word for over 63 years.

The bottom line is you're convinced in your own mind and will NOT receive proper instruction, no matter how sound and obvious it is.
Yes, the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth, unless we refuse to follow, then He stops leading. As the vast majority of those here don't your opinion on women teaching, and the vast majority of scholars do, then either the majority is right or you think you alone have been lead by the Holy Spirit into something that has clearly been refuted. In either case, YOU are WRONG.

It's an analogy, because God is NOT foolish in anyway. Anyone who thinks so doesn't know God at all. Rewording or repurposing what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 1 is just another example of how you twist and rework scripture to fit your own ideas. A very clear example of EISEGESIS !!!
 

OzSpen

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marksman said:
​And you are not so good yourself. I mean, how can a 2. A wife, be of a bethrothed woman (source) whatever a bethrothed woman is.

And I NEVER said a "that the word 'woman' does not appear in Scripture". Never have and never will.

The longer you go in this discussion you show that you put your own spin on things.
marksman,


I do wish you would quote my source accurately. This is what it stated for the meaning of gune:

1. A woman of any age, whether a virgin, married or widow;
2. A wife,
a. of a betrothed woman (source)

The second meaning of gune is 'a wife', one who is 'a betrothed woman'. She is a wife who is betrothed. I'm not the one who is confused. You can't read a source that demonstrates the meaning of gune. You are digging yourself further into the hole of ignorance.

Go back to #429 where you DID SAY: 'In scripture the word woman does not appear'. So for you to now claim that you NEVER said 'that the word "woman" does not appear in Scripture' is for you to demonstrate that you are declaring a falsehood - you are lying about what you wrote.

Your hole into theological ignorance is being dug deeper, thanks to your own actions.

Oz
 

tom55

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OzSpen said:
I most certainly am not cherry picking verses. I'm trying to be an honest exegete who sees apparent contradictions in Scripture and make an honest attempt to harmonise them. God is not the God of contradiction. He is the God of truth (Deut 32:4; Ps 57:10; 86:15; Is 55:8; Heb 6:18).
Now to the verses you raise:

1 Cor. 14:33-35 (ESV)
These verses state, 'For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church'.

So women in Corinth 'should keep silent.... They are not permitted to speak', says 1 Cor 14:33-35.

However, God’s Word states that women can speak in the church — they can pray and prophesy according to I Cor. 11:5 (NIV), 'But every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head — it is the same as if her head were shaven'. Here a woman in the church is able to pray and prophesy. The head covering is another issue, but not considered here as it is not relevant to the primary topic of the validity or otherwise of women in public ministry.

It is possible to pray without opening the mouth, but I do not know how a woman can prophesy in the church gathering with her mouth closed.

We know what is involved in praying, but what does the Scripture mean when it says that a woman is able to prophesy? Surely that can’t be done through silence!

Gordon Fee, a contemporary Bible scholar and exegete, states that


Therefore, we can conclude that for women to prophesy, it meant that they gave an oral message in a church gathering. They could not prophesy and remain silent at the same time.

1 Timothy 3:12

The ESV translation reads, 'Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well' ?

How does the NIV translate it, 'A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well'? For the ESV translation, 'husband of one wife', we have at least 4 possibilities as to its meaning:

1. The deacon needs to be married to a woman (wife);
2. It prohibits polygamy;
3. Marital fidelity between husband and wife.
4. It prohibits second marriages.

This is the parallel qualification to bishops (1 Tim 3:2).

Why the divergence in translations for 1 Tim 3:12? The ESV is a formal equivalence translation, which is an attempt at word-for-word. The NIV is a dynamic equivalence translation, which is meaning-for-meaning. So the translators of the NIV were of the understanding that the meaning of 'husband of one wife' was to 'be faithful to his wife'.

However, we need to ask the other question: Since a married deacon needs to be faithful to his wife, are there examples of female deacons in the NT? See the articles:
While the answer to the question is not definitive, it does seem that there were females in the NT church who had the ministry of serving, which is like that of deaconesses.
Notes
[1] Fee (1987:505-506).
[2] Fee (1987:595).
Works consulted
Fee, G D, 1987. The First Epistle to the Corinthians (The New International Commentary on the New Testament, F. F. Bruce, (gen.ed.). Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
I have never contested that females could not serve, pray or prophesy in the church. Scripture and Church history clearly shows they can not be elders (priest, deacons) or leaders of a church. I believe what scripture says.
 

marksman

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The Barrd said:
You are aware, I'm sure, that scripture was not written in English?
Therefore, the way that the Greek was spoken 2000 years ago is kinda important, if you really want to understand scripture.

It was enough for me to know that in Christ, all the old barriers have been knocked down.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

There is no more "male or female"...we are all one.
It's been that way for over 2000 years.
Get used to it.
​This verse is about salvation, not what people do regarding ministry so get used to it.
 

marksman

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StanJ said:
You even misuse the very scripture you quote from Eph 4:14. That comes AFTER Paul stated WHY Jesus gave us all the offices he lists in verses 11-13. You appear to pick and choose those you accept rather than the other way around. You also don't cite any of those books or authors you say you read. From my POV, you don't sound like somebody who has studied God's word for over 63 years.

The bottom line is you're convinced in your own mind and will NOT receive proper instruction, no matter how sound and obvious it is.
Yes, the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth, unless we refuse to follow, then He stops leading. As the vast majority of those here don't your opinion on women teaching, and the vast majority of scholars do, then either the majority is right or you think you alone have been lead by the Holy Spirit into something that has clearly been refuted. In either case, YOU are WRONG.

It's an analogy, because God is NOT foolish in anyway. Anyone who thinks so doesn't know God at all. Rewording or repurposing what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 1 is just another example of how you twist and rework scripture to fit your own ideas. A very clear example of EISEGESIS !!!
I used to enjoy your writing but not any more because you are getting personal and making accusations that are pure speculation and cannot be back up with any credible evidence. I expect that from atheists who have no morals but not from believers.
 

marksman

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tom55 said:
I have never contested that females could not serve, pray or prophesy in the church. Scripture and Church history clearly shows they can not be elders (priest, deacons) or leaders of a church. I believe what scripture says.
Like me Tom, you probably believe that being the majority does not make it right. Being autistic as I am, you develop a dogged attitude to life because if you don't you go under very quickly. I have noticed when you have a disability like I have, there are plenty of people out there who are good at telling you what is good for you. They don't bother to understand the autistic mind because if they did, they would not say the things they do.

Under the circumstances all you can do is ignore their accusations and follow those who have your best at heart who you know will not go out of their way to put you right and tell you that you are wrong. I can see you have a love of truth and are not swayed by every wind of doctrine like so many here.

The future is bright whilst we have people like you to draw our truth from.
 

marksman

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OzSpen said:
Quoting a long list of verses as you did in #422 is just that - quoting verses. It is not engaging in the task of exegesis.

Exegesis means to obtain the meaning out of a text and involves the hermeneutics of a particular text so that it is properly interpreted.

You have not done that. In fact, citing a text without doing exegesis is an excuse for not engaging in exegesis.

Oz
I was asked for the 25 verses. I was not asked for an exegesis of them. Being autistic, I don't do what I am not asked to do.
 

marksman

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StanJ said:
Just put him on ignore. He's not worth the headache Barrd.
Your constant avoiding of the truth gets on my nerve but I don't threaten childish responses like reporting you because I am offended. I am more mature than that.

This is addressed to Barrd.
 

StanJ

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marksman said:
I was asked for the 25 verses. I was not asked for an exegesis of them. Being autistic, I don't do what I am not asked to do.
Who asked you for verses? I'm pretty sure you were asked for corroboration.
Being autistic may well mean you have Asperger's, which would clarify a whole lot.
 

StanJ

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marksman said:
Your constant avoiding of the truth gets on my nerve but I don't threaten childish responses like reporting you because I am offended. I am more mature than that.
This is addressed to Barrd.
Yeh, this response is REALLY mature. <_<
Do you know what they say about a person who thinks everybody else does it wrong and they are the only person who does it right?

It's a PUBLIC forum marksman. If you don't like being challenged, don't post.
 

Barrd

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StanJ said:
Yeh, this response is REALLY mature. <_<
Do you know what they say about a person who thinks everybody else does it wrong and they are the only person who does it right?

It's a PUBLIC forum marksman. If you don't like being challenged, don't post.
It's okay, Stan, he isn't bothering me.
A long time ago, my grandma taught me that a person's opinion is only worth as much as the person. There are some folks in this forum who have really hurt me with their negative opinions...but Marksman is not one of them...
 

StanJ

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The Barrd said:
It's okay, Stan, he isn't bothering me.
A long time ago, my grandma taught me that a person's opinion is only worth as much as the person. There are some folks in this forum who have really hurt me with their negative opinions...but Marksman is not one of them...
I get that Barrd, but this type of sanctimonious clap trap bugs me to no end so I address it.
 

marksman

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StanJ said:
Yeh, this response is REALLY mature. <_<
Do you know what they say about a person who thinks everybody else does it wrong and they are the only person who does it right?

It's a PUBLIC forum marksman. If you don't like being challenged, don't post.
​What you are unable to grasp is that I had no opinion at all about leadership of the NTC until I did a two year study of the subject which included reading over 40 books on the subject. And I didn't say to myself whilst I was doing it "I will have to make a list of all the books I read as someone might ask me what books I read."

In addition, I read the scriptures that related to the NTC.

​Now let's face facts. If that upsets you that is your problem not mine. I know what I did and I am not ashamed that I did it and came to the conclusions I did. As my wife knows I am very thorough when I study anything and I don't say a word until I have studied it.

Whilst it is a public forum, mainly inhabited by christians, I do not expect to be slandered, called a liar and described in pejorative terms as you tend to do.
 
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marksman

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StanJ said:
I get that Barrd, but this type of sanctimonious clap trap bugs me to no end so I address it.
​"Sanctimonious claptrap." More pejorative language Stan. Is that the best you can do?
 

marksman

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StanJ said:
You even misuse the very scripture you quote from Eph 4:14. That comes AFTER Paul stated WHY Jesus gave us all the offices he lists in verses 11-13. You appear to pick and choose those you accept rather than the other way around. You also don't cite any of those books or authors you say you read. From my POV, you don't sound like somebody who has studied God's word for over 63 years.

The bottom line is you're convinced in your own mind and will NOT receive proper instruction, no matter how sound and obvious it is.
Yes, the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth, unless we refuse to follow, then He stops leading. As the vast majority of those here don't your opinion on women teaching, and the vast majority of scholars do, then either the majority is right or you think you alone have been lead by the Holy Spirit into something that has clearly been refuted. In either case, YOU are WRONG.

It's an analogy, because God is NOT foolish in anyway. Anyone who thinks so doesn't know God at all. Rewording or repurposing what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 1 is just another example of how you twist and rework scripture to fit your own ideas. A very clear example of EISEGESIS !!!
It's an analogy, because God is NOT foolish in anyway. Anyone who thinks so doesn't know God at all.

Not according to scripture but I guess that is your POV.
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
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marksman said:
What you are unable to grasp is that I had no opinion at all about leadership of the NTC until I did a two year study of the subject which included reading over 40 books on the subject. And I didn't say to myself whilst I was doing it "I will have to make a list of all the books I read as someone might ask me what books I read."

In addition, I read the scriptures that related to the NTC.

​Now let's face facts. If that upsets you that is your problem not mine. I know what I did and I am not ashamed that I did it and came to the conclusions I did. As my wife knows I am very thorough when I study anything and I don't say a word until I have studied it.

Whilst it is a public forum, mainly inhabited by christians, I do not expect to be slandered, called a liar and described in pejorative terms as you tend to do.
You keep thinking that if it makes you feel better, but most of us KNOW the truth.
Did you throw all those books out? Did they even ever exist?

The whole NT relates to the NT church, so use them...properly.

It's not a problem, it's a fact. Sadly you are not ashamed of your obvious bias that goes against God's word. More the sadder.

Who is doing any of that to you, and where?
 

StanJ

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marksman said:
It's an analogy, because God is NOT foolish in anyway. Anyone who thinks so doesn't know God at all.

Not according to scripture but I guess that is your POV.
You're basically just agreeing with me. Thanks for making my point.
 

marksman

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StanJ said:
I always call a spade a spade. It's not hard to identify.
​But when it is pejorative, it is not acceptable. I expect that from atheists, not christians.
 
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