Slaying Sacred Cows-- examining pet beliefs

[St. SteVen]

Have fun guys. Both of you.

 

[Mr E]

Have fun guys. Both of you.

lol.... I couldn't emphasize the point better than you just did. shhhhhh.... don't talk about it.

Maybe consider a name change? Saint Stephen-- in Acts 7 does this very thing-- correcting the false premises and misunderstanding of the religious leaders.....Things they truly believed and upheld as if they were facts. They were wrong. They didn't want to talk about it either, but he forced the issue. He wouldn't let them silence him.

Of course they murdered him, so of course-- there's that. (maybe change your signature tag line too)

 

[Wrangler]

In the olden days, a scientific inquiry might start with a "What if?" postulation. A theory, or idea to be tested … And now, instead of a "what if" we are presented ideas not as concepts to be tested, but statements of fact

It’s not scientific but logic, the application of reason.

What’s changed is people are now indoctrinated, not educated.

Indoctrination starts with the conclusion, and is closed to any path leading away from the conclusion. Education starts with the reasoning process, and is open to any conclusion.

Therefore, those holding sacred cows, the indoctrinated, are fearful of any and all divergent thoughts. And the educated are courageously pursuing all paths the reasoning leads to. The show Connections showcased this phenomena.

One example I recall is how the Bernoulli Equation was successfully applied to stock market trends. Anyone who understands how the Bernoulli Equation was derived would scratch their head on that one. Yet, this is how education and knowledge makes connections. Never would this discovery be found among the indoctrinated, sacred cow folks.

 

[Mr E]

It’s not scientific but logic, the application of reason.

What’s changed is people are now indoctrinated, not educated.

Indoctrination starts with the conclusion, and is closed to any path leading away from the conclusion. Education starts with the reasoning process, and is open to any conclusion.

Therefore, those holding sacred cows, the indoctrinated, are fearful of any and all divergent thoughts. And the educated are courageously pursuing all paths the reasoning leads to. The show Connections showcased this phenomena.

One example I recall is how the Bernoulli Equation was successfully applied to stock market trends. Anyone who understands how the Bernoulli Equation was derived would scratch their head on that one. Yet, this is how education and knowledge makes connections. Never would this discovery be found among the indoctrinated, sacred cow folks.

These kinds of conversations make some people very uncomfortable.

 

[Mr E]

In the beginning-- elohiym created the heavens and the earth.

If you don't understand this, how will you understand anything that follows?

 

[Mr E]

It's a top-down approach.

Many people think in terms of bottom-up, but the physical realm is not the place to start. Everything existing was existing in the greater realm-- the greater kingdom long before anyone took any notice of anything "created" below. To understand the simplicity of things below, you first have to consider the enormity and complexity of things above and discover the meaning of "on earth, as it is in heaven."

The beginning (naturally) is where you first see this. But without this principle in mind, concepts like the two witnesses will never make sense.

 

[Waiting on him]

In the beginning-- elohiym created the heavens and the earth.

If you don't understand this, how will you understand anything that follows?

Psalm 19 should give us some insight to what the heavens and earth are?

 

[Waiting on him]

It's a top-down approach.

Many people think in terms of bottom-up, but the physical realm is not the place to start. Everything existing was existing in the greater realm-- the greater kingdom long before anyone took any notice of anything "created" below. To understand the simplicity of things below, you first have to consider the enormity and complexity of things above and discover the meaning of "on earth, as it is in heaven."

The beginning (naturally) is where you first see this. But without this principle in mind, concepts like the two witnesses will never make sense.

Well, the beginning began when Jesus entered the world, I believe John acknowledged it as when the light entered the world?

 

[Waiting on him]

This is when Gods creation began.

 

[Waiting on him]

Days of creation list​

• Day 1: Light
• Day 2: Atmosphere / Firmament
• Day 3: Dry ground & plants
• Day 4: Sun, moon & stars
• Day 5: Birds & sea creatures
• Day 6: Land animals & humans
• Day 7: The Sabbath of rest.

 

[Wrangler]

It's a top-down approach.

Many people think in terms of bottom-up, but the physical realm is not the place to start.

The place to begin is concepts, then perceptions, finally with integrating the two experiences.

For instance, it is axiomatic that everything that exists is limited. This is true for collections of things as well. Even the universe is limited. They way to confirm this is NOT a matter of perception. It does not depend on driving to the end and seeing it. It is a matter of conception.

This is why the Buddha says to understand a single grain of sand, truly, is to understand the whole universe.

 

[Mr E]

The place to begin is concepts, then perceptions, finally with integrating the two experiences.

For instance, it is axiomatic that everything that exists is limited. This is true for collections of things as well. Even the universe is limited. They way to confirm this is NOT a matter of perception. It does not depend on driving to the end and seeing it. It is a matter of conception.

This is why the Buddha says to understand a single grain of sand, truly, is to understand the whole universe.

I quite like this @Wrangler - it’s akin to the difference between apprehend and comprehend. I would say however we begin with ideas (which we can call concepts) and from there we develop our own ideas about those ideas. These are our perceptions (or precepts).

It is most often the precepts we develop around certain concepts, that get us into trouble. These are beliefs. As such they should be constantly examined. They are very susceptible to error.

The original concepts are foundational to our beliefs, but when our understanding of those founding principles is lacking, everything that follows is similarly lacking and only wine gets better with time as the saying goes.

 

[Mr E]

Psalm 19 should give us some insight to what the heavens and earth are?

A most excellent and beautiful Psalm. Absolutely perfect for this thread.

Thank you

 

[Waiting on him]

A most excellent and beautiful Psalm. Absolutely perfect for this thread.

Thank you

He indeed placed a tabernacle in them.

 

[Wrangler]

It is most often the precepts we develop around certain concepts, that get us into trouble.

Agreed. In the youtube vid Is Genesis Real, the narrator explores the notion of paradigm.

Both groups of scientists are looking at the same set of facts. It's just that the Atheist scientists and Christian scientists have different paradigms to explain the facts. Regarding the flood, the Atheists embrace little water and LONG TIME. (Long time is the proposed solution to all their theoretical explanations). Christian scientists believe an easier to understand explanation is little time and a lot of water.

As science advances, LONG TIME fails. One reason it fails is what is called irreducible complexity.

A wise person remains grounded in facts and logic but is open to changing their paradigm to better explain what we experience and observe.

 

[Wrangler]

A most excellent and beautiful Psalm. Absolutely perfect for this thread.

Psalm 19 is my favorite Psalm.

 

[Mr E]

Psalm 19 is my favorite Psalm.

I love verse 5 concerning the sun (Son).

 

[Mr E]

Agreed. In the youtube vid Is Genesis Real, the narrator explores the notion of paradigm.

Both groups of scientists are looking at the same set of facts. It's just that the Atheist scientists and Christian scientists have different paradigms to explain the facts. Regarding the flood, the Atheists embrace little water and LONG TIME. (Long time is the proposed solution to all their theoretical explanations). Christian scientists believe an easier to understand explanation is little time and a lot of water.

As science advances, LONG TIME fails. One reason it fails is what is called irreducible complexity.

A wise person remains grounded in facts and logic but is open to changing their paradigm to better explain what we experience and observe.

As far as sacred cows go, people are very protective of their pet beliefs and their particular way of looking at things— those paradigms or constructs you mention.

Some will try to restrict, or limit, or even forbid discussion of those ideas— it’s too threatening to them to allow examination and so they create safe zones for themselves where conversation of difficult topics is forbidden. It’s a knee jerk reaction based on fear.

Some get nervous about the cow if you even walk too close to the milk pail.

Heresy! Blasphemy!

Dude…. Relax. Im just passing by. Just whistling a tune perhaps you’ve never heard before, but I’m not here to kick your bucket over, nor kill your cow directly. I’m happy to let it die of natural causes.

 

[Waiting on him]

As far as sacred cows go, people are very protective of their pet beliefs and their particular way of looking at things— those paradigms or constructs you mention.

Some will try to restrict, or limit, or even forbid discussion of those ideas— it’s too threatening to them to allow examination and so they create safe zones for themselves where conversation of difficult topics is forbidden. It’s a knee jerk reaction based on fear.

Some get nervous about the cow if you even walk too close to the milk pail.

Heresy! Blasphemy!

Dude…. Relax. Im just passing by. Just whistling a tune perhaps you’ve never heard before, but I’m not here to kick your bucket over, nor kill your cow directly. I’m happy to let it die of natural causes.

One sacred cow I’m particularly interested in is the the sons of God. The notion there could be any prior to the birth of Jesus.

 

[Waiting on him]

Psalm 19 is my favorite Psalm.

Why is this your favorite?