So then, no more boasting about human leaders! Believers need not be "club" members==calvinist!!

[Arthur81]

Calvinists great error= saying there are many people no matter what they believe, say and do are predestined to eternal hell. Jesus wants all to be saved and is unwilling that ANY perish.

Friend, I've been responding to your ideas about certain scriptures, now I'll give you a couple from various translations so you can tell us what they mean, and why they do not support the absolute sovereignty of God in salvation.


"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48 RSV)

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48 NRSV)

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the Lord's message; and those who had been chosen for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48 GNB92)

It is NOT those who believed were destined for eternal life, but those who were destined for eternal life believed.

"...and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain." (Rev 13:8 RSV)

"All people living on earth will worship it, except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to the Lamb that was killed." (Rev 13:8 GNB92)

"The beast was worshiped by everyone whose name wasn't written before the time of creation in the book of the Lamb who was killed." (Rev 13:8 CEV)

The elect's names were written in the Lamb's book of life at the creation, or before.

IF, as some say, God looked forward and predestined those he saw would believe; that would mean he looked forward and saw those who would not believe. In that case, how could Jesus say the following:

"And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'" (Matt 7:23 RSV)

 

[GISMYS_7]

The elect's names were written in the Lamb's book of life at the creation, or before.==YES God is outside time and knew before people were born who would choose to believe or reject.

 

[Logikos]

But with a big exception Logikos, Paul's words were holy scripture where our Elders and Deacons are not. I agree, Calvin did not come up with anything new. In the Reformation, Luther, Calvin and others of the Reformation were Augustinian in theology, and quoted from Augustine often to prove they were not preaching some new doctrine.

"And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures." (2Pet 3:15-16 RSV)

It's not that I disagree with the sentiment. People aught not elevate people too highly. My only point is that we should take that principle so far as to prohibit the use of very useful conventions of language such a labels which serve to, in a single word, distinguish whole lists of doctrines from other whole lists of doctrines. Without labels, communication between such groups become so cumbersome as to be practically impossible.

 

[Logikos]

The elect's names were written in the Lamb's book of life at the creation, or before.==YES God is outside time and knew before people were born who would choose to believe or reject.

There is no such thing as "outside of time". It's a self-contradictory fantasy that is utterly foreign to scripture.

 

[Arthur81]

It's not that I disagree with the sentiment. People aught not elevate people too highly. My only point is that we should take that principle so far as to prohibit the use of very useful conventions of language such a labels which serve to, in a single word, distinguish whole lists of doctrines from other whole lists of doctrines. Without labels, communication between such groups become so cumbersome as to be practically impossible.

Yes, I agree with you on that. It is just that the label "Calvinist" has been turned into such a pejorative word in modern evangelicalism, I find it introduces a strong negative thought process before the scriptures can be examined. When I read Martin Luther's "Bondage of the Will", I see how clearly modern evangelicals are overwhelmingly regressing to Roman Catholic doctrine on the question of the will of fallen man.

 

[GISMYS_7]

There is no such thing as "outside of time". It's a self-contradictory fantasy that is utterly foreign to scripture.

Time is for man. God IS ===

2 Peter 3:8​

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

[Logikos]

Yes, I agree with you on that. It is just that the label "Calvinist" has been turned into such a pejorative word in modern evangelicalism, I find it introduces a strong negative thought process before the scriptures can be examined. When I read Martin Luther's "Bondage of the Will", I see how clearly modern evangelicals are overwhelmingly regressing to Roman Catholic doctrine on the question of the will of fallen man.

As far as I'm concerned, I take it as good news to hear that the term Calvinism "introduces a strong negative thought process". By any righteous means, the larger the number of people who reject Calvinism the better.

God is just! Therefore, Calvinism is false!