So then, no more boasting about human leaders! Believers need not be "club" members==calvinist!!

[GISMYS_7]

So then, no more boasting about human leaders! Believers need not be "club" members==calvinist!!​

Corinthians 3:20-23​

20“The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.”
21 So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours,
22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours,
23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

 

[Arthur81]

While I do not like to use the name of a man to describe a doctrinal view, I find what is usually considered Calvinist(the Five Points coming out of the Synod of Dort), to be squarely on scripture. To simplify, give one verse you think 'Calvinists' are misinterpreting. Don't give a flood of verses for that becomes a confusing mess. Give one scripture verse to start discussing what you must see as objectionable in the beliefs of 'Calvinists'.

 

[Pearl]

So then, no more boasting about human leaders! Believers need not be "club" members==calvinist!!​

Corinthians 3:20-23​

20“The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.”
21 So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours,
22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours,
23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

Something wrong with your quote - 1 or 2

 

[Cyd]

Calvin probably ran into this verse... how do you define this verse? What does it mean?

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Yes God is outside time and already knows the beginning to the end and what choice we will make. It Is not true that some cannot choose to believe no matter what they think say and do. God is unwilling that any perish but all come to believe but our choice.

 

[Arthur81]

Calvin probably ran into this verse... how do you define this verse? What does it mean?

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

First, what I do not see in the following verse is anything whatsoever about the question of abortion.

The verse is recording God's assurances of his being a prophet even though Jeremiah considered himself merely a boy. God speaks of his decree or the predestination of Jeremiah to be a prophet, and this decree or predestination takes place before creation, before time.

"Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak. Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the LORD." (Jer 1:4-8 KJV)

"Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." (Acts 15:18 KJV)

 

[Arthur81]

Yes God is outside time and already knows the beginning to the end and what choice we will make. It Is not true that some cannot choose to believe no matter what they think say and do. God is unwilling that any perish but all come to believe but our choice.

You've gone rambling off track. You seem to be bringing in the following verse, not addressing Jer. 1:5 -

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2Pet 3:9 KJV)

Tell us how you understand and interpret that verse. What does the phrase "not willing than any should perish" mean to you? Give scripture proof to how you understand that phrase.

 

[GISMYS_7]

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, """not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2Pet 3:9"""===God's will for ALL but still your choice.

 

[Arthur81]

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, """not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2Pet 3:9"""===God's will for ALL but still your choice.

About your last phrase "God's will for ALL but still your choice" I'd agree with what you seem to refer to in the "will" of God here. It is his preceptive will, what he prescribes for man to do for salvation; so I agree there. Now, as to "but still your choice", how and why does a person make that choice, believe unto salvation? Paul tells us as recorded by Luke:

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48 NRSV)

Faith is God's gift:

"For he has graciously granted you the privilege not only of believing in Christ, but of suffering for him as well—" (Phil 1:29 NRSV)

"Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil 2:12-13 NRSV) *If it is God's "enabling" the Christian; how much more enabling is required for the one "dead" in sins?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God—" (Eph 2:8 NRSV)

Albert Barnes gives a good parabolic understanding of this passage concerning God's will here:

"One may have a sincere desire that others should not perish, and yet it may be that, in entire consistency with that, they will perish. A parent has a sincere wish that his children should not be punished, and yet he himself may be under a moral necessity to punish them. A lawgiver may have a sincere wish that no one should ever break the laws, or be punished, and yet he himself may build a prison, and construct a gallows, and cause the law to be executed in a most rigorous manner. A judge on the bench may have a sincere desire that no man should be executed, and that everyone arraigned before him should be found to be innocent, and yet even he, in entire accordance with that wish, and with a most benevolent heart, even with tears in his eyes, may pronounce the sentence of the law."

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" (Ezek 33:11 KJV)

There is a second understanding of this difficult verse that is held by many 'Calvinists' as in:

John Gill: "not willing that any should perish; not any of the us, whom he has loved with an everlasting love, whom he has chosen in his Son, and given to him, and for whom he has died, and who are brought to believe in him."

Matthew Poole: "Not willing that any should perish; any that he hath ordained to life, though not yet called."

The idea of a sinner having "free will" to make this choice to believe on his own is contrary to so many verses on the question of belief.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Again!!! God is outside time. Before creation God knew who would choose to believe and who would choose to reject him.

John 3:16​

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that ''''whoever''' believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Again!!! God is outside time. Before creation God knew who would choose to believe and who would choose to reject him.

John 3:16​

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that ''''whoever''' believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Some people read through they eyes of a doctrine.. so they can;t see anything else

 

[GISMYS_7]

Deuteronomy 30:15-20=== We all must choose!!​

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. ""''Now choose life'"'', so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

[dev553344]

So then, no more boasting about human leaders! Believers need not be "club" members==calvinist!!​

Corinthians 3:20-23​

20“The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.”
21 So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours,
22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours,
23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

I boast about little men, they often surprise you with big things!

 

[Arthur81]

Some people read through they eyes of a doctrine.. so they can;t see anything else

The YLT makes that verse a bit more clear:

"...for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during." (John 3:16 YLT)

This is an observation of an existing fact, "every one who is believing". You, as so many others, wish to rewrite the verse so as to make it read thus:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever WILL believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16 KJV)

The verse is NOT a formula or prescription on how to be 'born again'; but a statement of the existing state of affairs. The reason one is "born again", or more accurately, "born from above", is given to us in the first chapter:

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13 KJV)

This is a mystery as is described like the wind:

"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:7-8 KJV)

Man is not born again by believing! Man believes because he has been born from above, given spiritual life by which he believes, the new birth and then belief.

 

[Arthur81]

Deuteronomy 30:15-20=== We all must choose!!​

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. ""''Now choose life'"'', so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Notice, the term "in the land" is written three times. This is about living and remaining in the promised land. This is not talking about eternal salvation!

 

[GISMYS_7]

Deuteronomy 30:15-20=====says man has choice=free will. Before time God knows who will choose to believe and who will choose to reject God's love and salvation.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.​

19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now """"choose""""life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, """not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2Pet 3:9"""===God's will for ALL but still your choice.

All are called but many reject.

 

[Logikos]

So then, no more boasting about human leaders! Believers need not be "club" members==calvinist!!​

Corinthians 3:20-23​

20“The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.”
21 So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours,
22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours,
23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

Even Calvinists who happen to like or at the very least do not mind the label of "Calvinist or Calvinism" do not take that label because of Calvin himself but because of the doctrines that he taught, which happens to be merely a reformed version of Augustinian doctrine. Likewise, the term "Augustinianism" is not a means to elevate the person named Augustine per se but is a label intended to make reference to the major and distinctive points of doctrine that sets his teachings apart from other systematic theologies.

This is an extremely useful and actually am indispensable convention of language. You use it whenever you use any other term (Christian, Atheist, Catholic, Protestant, American, Italian, Male, Female, etc) intended to identify yourself as something other than merely a member of the whole human race.

Paul's injunction of I Corinthians 3 wasn't a prohibition of labels or of the use of someone's name as a label. He was saying not to elevate people beyond what is reasonable. Indeed, just a few pages after the passage you quote, we read Paul saying....

1 Corinthians 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Surely then it is more than fine to accept Paul as a human leader and that's not to mention those who are in the office of Elder or Deacon.

 

[Logikos]

Notice, the term "in the land" is written three times. This is about living and remaining in the promised land. This is not talking about eternal salvation!

The passage is very overtly talking about good and evil and about life and death. It is not talking about where you live but whether you live.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Calvinists great error= saying there are many people no matter what they believe, say and do are predestined to eternal hell. Jesus wants all to be saved and is unwilling that ANY perish.

 

[Arthur81]

Even Calvinists who happen to like or at the very least do not mind the label of "Calvinist or Calvinism" do not take that label because of Calvin himself but because of the doctrines that he taught, which happens to be merely a reformed version of Augustinian doctrine. Likewise, the term "Augustinianism" is not a means to elevate the person named Augustine per se but is a label intended to make reference to the major and distinctive points of doctrine that sets his teachings apart from other systematic theologies.

This is an extremely useful and actually am indispensable convention of language. You use it whenever you use any other term (Christian, Atheist, Catholic, Protestant, American, Italian, Male, Female, etc) intended to identify yourself as something other than merely a member of the whole human race.

Paul's injunction of I Corinthians 3 wasn't a prohibition of labels or of the use of someone's name as a label. He was saying not to elevate people beyond what is reasonable. Indeed, just a few pages after the passage you quote, we read Paul saying....

1 Corinthians 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Surely then it is more than fine to accept Paul as a human leader and that's not to mention those who are in the office of Elder or Deacon.

But with a big exception Logikos, Paul's words were holy scripture where our Elders and Deacons are not. I agree, Calvin did not come up with anything new. In the Reformation, Luther, Calvin and others of the Reformation were Augustinian in theology, and quoted from Augustine often to prove they were not preaching some new doctrine.

"And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures." (2Pet 3:15-16 RSV)