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Featured Some good information for Dave

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Jane_Doe22, Feb 4, 2019.

  1. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    No, others have made plain what they say her beliefs must be as a result of her being Mormon. Presumption is what I would call this. Will you then beat her into submission? Will you beat her until she repents what you believe to be her errors? If she is in error but her heart is sincere in her search for truth, will not God give her what she desires without beating her? If she is not in error or not sincere, then what is your purpose in pursuing with your persecution? Are you the punisher? Or... are you God?
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
  2. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Amadeus, where have you been? Composing another concerto?:)
     
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  3. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Praise the Lord! Jane Doe is not the one being persecuted here...

    However, it is a well-known fact that those who are deeper into Mormonism and promote it are less than honest about what they really believe.

    Mormons who are brand new to the faith are allowed to have Christian beliefs; but as they go deeper into the faith, the teaching changes so that the beliefs become un-Christian.

    In answer to your questions...no, I am not the punisher, and I am not God...however, He has given us His word and we can declare His judgments based on what His word says.

    For example, it is rather clear in scripture that we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5) but that we are justified by his grace (Titus 3:7).

    True Mormonism is in opposition to these basic principles.

    If Jane Doe believes in these things, then kudos to her...but shame on her for trying to say that these beliefs are in conjunction with what real Mormonism teaches.

    If she is going to be honest with us, she needs to make a distinction between her own beliefs and the beliefs of Mormonism when they are different from each other.
     
  4. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    No, that was for Wolfgang A Mozart. My composition is for naught except when the good Lord inspires me from or with His Word.
    Give God the glory!
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  5. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Who is it then?

    "And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
    And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks
    And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do." Acts 9:4-6


    Are you being persecuted by @Jane_Doe22 ? Who is it to whom the pricks are directed? Why? If she is what you seem to believe then she is dead and what harm can a dead person accomplish against one who is on the Lord's side, which where I presume you believe that you are? Why would you attack a dead person?

    I have over the years met and known many Mormons. Only one, my brother's wife, to my knowledge persecuted others. She alone was definitely dishonest. Should I attack all the rest because of her errors or should I attack the others because I may disagree with some of the official church doctrine and guidelines. Who in any organized church believes and tries to follow every thing suggested or ordered by their leadership? Why pick on the Mormons over all of those? Do not the words penned by Paul also apply in this case?

    "For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise" II Cor 10:12

    Would it not rather be better to simply follow Jesus now as he leads us through the Holy Spirit?


    If what you say were true and true only of them how easy simply living for God might be. You know as I know that there are others for all we are able see may be as bad or worse. Who do edify by tearing down the good along with the bad. What was it Jesus said?

    "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." Matt 13:30

    Are you one of the reapers onto whom Jesus has already said to "gather" and to "bind" and to "burn"?

    Are they really dead? Then...

    Do you want to resurrect them? Did Jesus go to the graveyards and call all of them to come forth as he did with Lazarus? Why not?

    "But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:22

    Which church group [denomination] is not in opposition to some basic principles of God? Which individual in any one of these groups is not in opposition to some basic principles of God? Which group without doubt even knows what those basic principles are? If any one is without error in principle then why are sincere believers not leaving where they are and attending that one? Likely you know the answers to my questions yet you continue to stand in judgment on one person of one group which you have studied. You studied the group maybe, but can you study one person so well as to stand in judgment of that person? Does God ask for or require or even allow your assistance in His business? Did @Jane_Doe22 reach out to you asking for you assistance in straightening out any erroneous bends in her road... to help her with her business? When you offered such assistance did she say, 'Come on'?

    She has told you why she is on this forum, but you insist on pressing where she has asked you kindly not to press.

    Even if you were correct, why should anyone be required to walk along your road to continue toward their chosen destination? Even walking with the Lord, not every road is the same. Not every step along the road is the same. The "toe" does not know the business of the "arm". The Head knows everyone's business and will coordinate and harmonize those who allow it.

    If there is such a distinction why must she submit to your demand? Who are you to insist that she is dishonest and that she must follow the pathway you have put before her?
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  6. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    Which church group [denomination] is not in opposition to some basic principles of God? Which individual in any one of these groups is not in opposition to some basic principles of God? Which group without doubt even knows what those basic principles are? If any one is without error in principle then why are sincere believers not leaving where they are and attending that one? Likely you know the answers to my questions yet you continue to stand in judgment on one person of one group which you have studied. You studied the group maybe, but can you study one person so well as to stand in judgment of that person? Does God ask for or require or even allow your assistance in His business? Did @Jane_Doe22 reach out to you asking for you assistance in straightening out any erroneous bends in her road... to help her with her business? When you offered such assistance did she say, 'Come on'?

    She has told you why she is on this forum, but you insist on pressing where she has asked you kindly not to press.


    Even if you were correct, why should anyone be required to walk along your road to continue toward their chosen destination? Even walking with the Lord, not every road is the same. Not every step along the road is the same. The "toe" does not know the business of the "arm". The Head knows everyone's business and will coordinate and harmonize those who allow it.


    If there is such a distinction why must she submit to your demand? Who are you to insist that she is dishonest and that she must follow the pathway you have put before her?[/QUOTE]
    the one who posted, "I'm Done", should read this.

    PICJAG.
     
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  7. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    I have been persecuted for many years by many people because my beliefs (or more accurately: what these people incorrectly think are my beliefs). I can not tell you how many thousands of times I had my relationship with Christ denied, been cast out of places, have heard lines like "oh you're just brainwashed" or "oh I know what you believe better than you do" or "you don't know what real Mormonism teaches" or a whole series blatantly false lies being told. After decades of thorough study in my own faith, hearing this from people who learned 'everything' from a 15-minute-primer gets really irritating.

    I do not condone persecution or abuse in any form for any reason-- these actions are sinful.

    However, I also readily acknowledge that very frequently these persecutors are victims themselves: people whom have been given bad information from a source they trust and are then operating off that bad information. They haven't ever actually talked to me or step foot in a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Frequently the trusted source that gave them this bad information was a person who didn't even know that information was bad in the first place and likewise has never done that first-hand research. These people usually have good intentions, just bad information. Some people have the simple courage to check out first-hand sources and get good info. Other people... things are complicated.

    Knowing this, and having seen the good-intentions-bad-info played out so many time, it really just convicts me more of God's words in Romans 12:14 and Matthew 5:44. I honestly really pray for these people. That their good intentions may eventually be met with good information. That "Bob" comes to realize that accurately understanding another person doesn't threaten Bob's faith. And of course (and most importantly), that Bob simply ever grow closer to God.
     
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  8. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Being persecuted on account of group identity is not the same as following Christ and being condemned for doing good to others. Loosing jobs over it. Taking a stand against tyranny in the workplace. If I were a "Hell's Angel" or member of the Manson cult, and persecuted for it, it is not the same as being persecuted for doing good in the face of evil.
     
  9. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Were you raised a Mormon
     
  10. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    Persecution is inherently wrong, no matter who is doing it to who, or what form that persecution takes.
     
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  11. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    But, we drag some of it in on top of ourselves unnecessarily.
     
  12. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    I have been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for 30+ years.

    Whether or not a person was raised going to a church building (any church building) does not matter because what matters is the faith (the actual beliefs/actions) a person embraces.

    I'm also just a huge theology nerd, and have thoroughly studied many other faiths over the last many years. Throughly studying = months of regularly walking into the building, sitting down, listening to sermons, chatting with believers about what they believing, opening first-hand materials and reading myself. If you want to ask me the last time I visited a service of X, feel free to ask.
     
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  13. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Ok now that everyone has had a good cry.
    1 Corinthians 12:3 KJV
    [3] Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

    Tecarta BibleYou can only confess him as Lord by the power of the Holy Ghost. This in my opinion implies Paul received the Spirit of God prior to rebirth
     
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  14. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    In the same vein, it is by the Spirit of God that believers cry 'Abba, Father' (Romans 8.15).
     
  15. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    The one persecuting me here, by claiming that I am persecuting Jane Doe, is simply not realizing that I am simply attempting to make sure that someone does not get deceived here.

    I suppose that you can go into the realm of Mormonism, believing Jane Doe that the beliefs of Mormonism is what she says and not what is said about Mormonism from sources that are attempting to keep you from being deceived by entering into the realm of becoming Mormon and going through all the trouble of becoming an initial Mormon and then working your way up into the upper eschelons of the faith where you will be required to believe preposterous things in order to keep your standing...(and by that time you will have emotional reasons for wanting to keep your standing)...and then, if you are wise, you will reject Mormonism, having found out that it really does teach what you were warned that it does teach, and that you were deceived (lied to) when you were told that Mormonism really does not teach those things.

    So, if I can save you the trouble of having gone through all of that (and there is also the possibility that if you enter into the initial stages of being a Mormon, you could swallow their lies whole), I feel that I will have done you a favour.
     
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  16. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    A mysteriously wonderful collaboration
     
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  17. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Come into my parlor, said the spider to the fly...
     
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    To @amadeus,

    If @Jane_Doe22 knows that she has the truth, and that she is being persecuted for righteousness' sake;

    Then it should not bother her that she is being persecuted; for the scripture declares that hers is the kingdom of heaven over it.

    But if she is being persecuted for unrighteousness' sake, well, I can see why she would be bothered, because in that the statements that are being leveled against her beliefs (not her, mind you, but her beliefs) are based in truth; and that this means that she is not going to heaven for that she believes false doctrines that will keep her out of the kingdom.
     
  19. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    Here's my story--

    When I was ~6 six years old, I was going through a really rough time in life. I was bogged down in the difficulties of life and in pain this existence can bring. I also felt weighed down for my own shortcomings- that I couldn’t do this or that, that I wasn’t good enough, or that I had done wrong things, even things which brought pain to those I loved. There was so much I regretted, so much I wanted to get away from—part of me even hated myself for all of this. I felt very alone in all this, that no one self could understand what I was going through.

    During this time I would frequently go out the backyard swing set for solace to think with hanging upside on the monkey-bar swing for hours, just thinking. Sometimes I would get bogged down in my self-hatred. Sometimes I would say a prayer to fight off those demonic feelings. I wonder the purpose of it all. On one such day, a song came:

    “Heavenly Father, are you really there?
    And do you hear and answer ev'ry child's prayer?
    Some say that heaven is far away,
    But I feel it close around me as I pray.
    Heavenly Father, I remember now
    Something that Jesus told disciples long ago:
    "Suffer the children to come to me."
    Father, in prayer I'm coming now to thee.”

    I remembered that song. I remembered the story of Jesus which went along with it. I remembered how He asked specifically for the little children to come to Him, and blessed them. I remember how He lived, prayed, and died to understand all of us and to save us from evil. He suffered for all of it—He understood all of it—even the littlest thing. Like Jesus understood exactly what it was like to have a sister-with-a-temper! He also understood the more complicated things I was going through. And there was a reason for it! The end of all this struggle was so glorious—such amazing great things to come! God hadn’t forgotten about me or anything- I was His child- He cared beyond measure.

    I sat on that swing and just poured my heart out in prayer. I can’t express the relief to have someone to talk to- to have someone to understand. That feelings of welcome and love….And then, to have someone to that could Heal on top of it—that knit up my heart so much that day. To express it in words…. “the best hug ever!” is what my little self called it, and those are probably the best words I still have at many years lager.

    As I grew up more, I had more moments and wavering and certainty in faith, and in God. I knew God was the person whom Understood everything I was going though: my wishes, my desires, my pains. I devote myself to Him every day: He is my Lord, my Savior, the only begotten Son of God.
     
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  20. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Were you raised Mormon?
     
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