Some good information for Dave

[Dave L]

well Dave, if the "born-again" are all singing When We All Get to Heaven then I guess that calls for redefining your understanding of "born-again" prolly huh. Could you possibly have an imperfect understanding of the meaning there? If not, why not?

now i'm not going to pretend to have another convo with you on this, where we get to the point where Scripture has obviously contradicted your pov 3 diff ways and you start going blind, ok, so take those as rhetorical, but you might notice that you will surely construct some logical argument to support your pov, right, just like you are expecting some logical arg @ How are Good Samaritans accepted with God? As if I really needed to even refute that?

So my answer--to you--is I don't know how, Dave

You do not understand enough about your topic to have an intelligent (intelligible) conversation. wadr....

 

[farouk]

Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. This means there is an in dwelling of the Holy Spirit first; that gives the gift of faith

True saving faith has to be a work of the Spirit of God rather than a work of the flesh, right?

 

[Dave L]

That is the opposite order to what the Bible teaches in

Rom 5:1, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2, By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

You walked right into that one.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) (KJV 1900)

How can the fruit exist without it's source?

 

[Dave L]

let Me tell you that many shall come from east and west and recline with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of heaven

By their fruits you shall know them...............

 

[bbyrd009]

You do not understand enough about your topic to have an intelligent (intelligible) conversation. wadr....

that's it Dave, go with that, pretend that wasn't crystal clear, and puff yourself up a little bit, ok with me

 

[Waiting on him]

True saving faith has to be a work of the Spirit of God rather than a work of the flesh, right?

2 Corinthians 11:3 ?

 

[bbyrd009]

By their fruits you shall know them...............

All, unless born again, do good works for the wrong reasons.

ha ok Dave, you realize this makes you a hypocrite right

 

[farouk]

2 Corinthians 11:3 ?

Well, exactly; by His grace we need to keep 'looking unto Jesus' (Hebrews 12.2).

Ephesians 6.24 says: 'Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen.'

 

[farouk]

By their fruits you shall know them...............

Exactly; this is a verse that is often referred to.

 

[bbyrd009]

Exactly; this is a verse that is often referred to.

as in verbally, paid lip-service to, yes. But as Dave has just made clear that is not really the criteria that most who deem themselves "born-again" go by, is it?

 

[farouk]

PS" @Galatians 5 and the Fruit of the Spirit, are also very relevant.

 

[CoreIssue]

I believe we have had this discussion on the forum numerous times I am a Bible Student not a JW, if you had actually visited a "reliable" website on the subject you would know the difference.

As to your last statement this is a prime example of just how reliable second hand sources are. It's true Bible Students believe in the invisible return of our Lord in 1874, a date proven by various prophecies of the bible most notably the Jubilee prophecy, this date however has never changed for Bible Students as some may suggest.

JW's on the other hand believe in 1914 as the date of the second advent, with the dates for other various events fluctuating over time as so-called "new light" (?) emerges.

No discussion with me.

Watchtower / Jehoavah's Witnesses 1874 quotes

only JW hold to 1874

As for Bible student
Christ’s Parousia (Second Presence) In 1874

 

[bbyrd009]

as in verbally, paid lip-service to, yes. But as Dave has just made clear that is not really the criteria that most who deem themselves "born-again" go by, is it?

so, maybe not the best place, but it might be seen that "commending themselves to each other" and various--several, many--other Scriptures outline what a Spiritual Homosexual is

 

[Jane_Doe22]

***Hey, can all the people instructed in informing "Bob" what Bob believes please take the discussion some place other than this thread?***

I started this thread to have a place to give good information from primary sources ("I believe X") specifically to stop the "well you believe X" shinagains.

 

[justbyfaith]

Faith is the key to the door by which we gain access into grace, according to Romans 5:1-2.

But according to some here one must have grace before they can have faith.

So one must begin inside the room in order to have access to the room (the key of faith opening the door that leads into the room called grace).

This means that the lost cannot be saved; but only the saved can go in and out and find pasture. Only those who begin with salvation can enter in through the door. However, Jesus said,

Luk 19:10, For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Therefore I reject the concept that we have access by grace into this faith wherein we stand; and accept the established order presented in Romans 5:1-2.

If anyone wants to insist that the other order presented is the way, then be my guest. You must be saved in order to have faith, which is your access to grace. Therefore salvation precedes receiving the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ; and thus we are not saved by grace through faith.

Also, God therefore chose some to eternal damnation for that it is not based on man's choice; He saved some and then gave them faith. Others, who do not have faith, He did not save: and they also cannot save themselves.

Thus the following scripture is null and void:

Act 2:40, And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

People have no choice in the matter of whether they will burn in hell for all of eternity: God simply set some people apart for hell and others to heaven. Good news if you know you are set apart from heaven; but if you do not know that, it could very well cause you to believe that God is some kind of unjust Monster because he created you for hell and gave you no option of avoiding it. He condemned you for your sin and never offered you a solution for your problem of sin; because even though the gospel may have been presented to you, you were told that your response to the gospel does not make a difference in the eternal scheme; you can only make a decision for Christ if you are already saved. And you are told that you begin unsaved (i.e. Total Depravity).

The conclusion I make from these things is that no one is able to make a valid decision for Christ unless God chooses them first; and this means that if God did not choose me, there is no hope for me even if I did make a decision for Christ. Thus the following scripture is null and void:

Rom 10:8, But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This serves to strip away the very valid assurance that God wants to give to people who have called on the name of the Lord for salvation. Because, the reasoning goes, if I am not one of the elect, then my decision for Christ has no bearing on my salvation; and therefore I cannot bank on that decision but only on God's sovereign choice of me as one of His elect.

But how can I know that I am one of His elect, if I have not made a decision for Christ? If I have not made a decision for Christ, then I might conclude that I am not of the elect and therefore there is no hope and also no point in trying to be saved; which appears to be the goal of Calvinistic preaching; to make people give up on doing anything in order to be saved but simply to trust that God either chose them or didn't choose them and therefore the response is to make no decision but to simply leave it up to God. (However, the scripture declares:

Deu 4:29, But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

and,

Jer 29:13, And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.)

Which would of course require a basic belief in the goodness of God; and that if you trust in His decision towards you, that He would choose to save you rather than condemn you. Nevertheless there are those whom God has not chosen unto salvation, in this realm of theology; and therefore the requirement here is that you believe that God will be good towards you when He is evil towards other people (for He would have to be evil toward them if He places them in hell based on the sin of their ancestor and gives them no option of escaping that horrible judgment).

But God did give an option to escape, even as He tells us to save ourselves from this untoward generation.

If we call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth we shall be saved (Romans 10:13, Acts of the Apostles 4:10-12).

Now in the theology given, a person cannot call on the name of the Lord unless they are already saved.

If I am already saved then why call on the name of the Lord? To prove that God already saved me? But the salvation is yet future to the one who calls on His name, according to the word shall in that scripture (Romans 10:13).

One would have to rewrite that scripture to say, Whosoever is justified, and then calls on Christ's name for that reason, shall be sanctified and glorified.

For justification, sanctification, and glorification are all said to be aspects of salvation.

The only problem with this is that you are dividing salvation into three separate things.

A person is justified for no reason, and then calls on the name of the Lord to receive the practical outworkings of that salvation. However, salvation is effectively placed in the past of the person who calls on Christ's name, when Romans 10:13 places it future to that event. You have to divide salvation in order to make this work; and this requires teaching that goes outside of the biblical spectrum.

"In justification we are saved from the penalty of sin; in sanctification we are saved from the power of sin; in glorification we are saved from the presence of sin."

These may be biblical statements; but it is still a point that in this theology a person is justified for no reason other than that God chose them from eternity; they are not justified by their faith but by God's choice of them.

How does one know God's choice of them and thus receive assurance?

His Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God.

The question remains, how does one receive the Spirit? Does a person have Him from birth? This provides for those who say, I have been a Christian all my life; when Jesus said, Ye must be born again.

So at what point does a person go from being dead in trespasses and sins to being born again and having the assurance that God has saved them? Is it that in one moment they know they are not saved and in the next moment they know that they are? That God just reaches down and saves them without any decision on their part?

This brings up another point. If in salvation a person becomes surrendered to the Lordship of Christ, does this happen against their will? You have bondservants of Christ, suddenly becoming so, apart from them asking to have their ears pierced to the doorpost. They do not have the option of saying, "I love my wife, my master, and my children" so that they can become Christ's bondslave for ever. Thus you have God recruiting people as slaves against their will; and therefore this God is a slavemaster who makes people His slaves against their will.

On the contrary, scripture says,

Psa 110:3, Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

 

[farouk]

2 Corinthians 11:3 ?

1 Peter 1.23 also: '...begotten...by the word of God which liveth and abideth for ever'.

 

[Harvest 1874]

No discussion with me.

Watchtower / Jehoavah's Witnesses 1874 quotes

only JW hold to 1874

As for Bible student
Christ’s Parousia (Second Presence) In 1874

Once again as was stated Bible Students have never changed the date of our Lord's parousia (invisible presence), whereas the Jehovah's Witlessness have. In the beginning they accepted the 1874 date as the date of our Lord's second advent, but later they changed it to 1914.

As for your quotes it should be noted that all references to the Watch Tower publications dated after 1916 are not Bible Student related materials. Not long after the Pastor died in 1916 Judge Rutherford wrestle control of the organization as well as control of the publishing house and preceded to move in a different direction. While the publishing house was in the hands of the Bible Students it was designated Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society later to be renamed the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society.

When Judge Rutherford took over the organization one of the first things he did was to purge the organization of all the old materials written by the Pastor and those of like mind, these he replaced with his own teachings and of course with those who shared his new direction.

Unfortunately although in time he changed the name of the organization to the Jehovah's Witnesses in order to distinguish the new organization from all the former Bible Students who still adhered to the Pastor's teachings he merely made a small change in the title of the publishing company's name adding the words "of Pennsylvania", viz. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania.

This has led to a lot of confusion over the years amoungst those seeking the original teachings of the Bible Students, many being confused by later publications written by the Watch Tower's of the Jehovah's Witnesses. The original Watch Tower's (those published by the Bible Students) are dated from July 1879-Dec 1916. Of course we have more recent Bible Student materials which are published through various publishing houses as well as independently by certain classes, but none of these materials have anything to do with the teachings of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Last I heard from a former Witness friend (now a Bible Student) was that the Society frown on any of its members reading the earlier Towers.

 

[Harvest 1874]

***Hey, can all the people instructed in informing "Bob" what Bob believes please take the discussion some place other than this thread?***

I started this thread to have a place to give good information from primary sources ("I believe X") specifically to stop the "well you believe X" shinagains.

Better get used to it my sister, most threads get high jacked over time, some right away, as it appears yours has. If you wish to state your case with out any undue interruptions and etc. I would suggest you start a blog, although the readership is a bit less, (Although I myself prefer quality over quantity). The Lord is not calling everyone at this time only the select few who are zealous for the truth and who are willing to take the time necessary to be properly taught.

We live in a fast pace society where everyone wants instant answers to their questions, they want to be spoon fed. There are plenty of teachers out there with itching ears to fulfill their needs, but if you are truly hungering and desirous of truth you will need to learn to exercise patience, treasure is not simply laying upon the surface of the ground, it not only requires time to locate it, but likewise effort (work, study, digging) to get to it.

 

[CoreIssue]

Once again as was stated Bible Students have never changed the date of our Lord's parousia (invisible presence), whereas the Jehovah's Witlessness have. In the beginning they accepted the 1874 date as the date of our Lord's second advent, but later they changed it to 1914.

As for your quotes it should be noted that all references to the Watch Tower publications dated after 1916 are not Bible Student related materials. Not long after the Pastor died in 1916 Judge Rutherford wrestle control of the organization as well as control of the publishing house and preceded to move in a different direction. While the publishing house was in the hands of the Bible Students it was designated Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society later to be renamed the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society.

When Judge Rutherford took over the organization one of the first things he did was to purge the organization of all the old materials written by the Pastor and those of like mind, these he replaced with his own teachings and of course with those who shared his new direction.

Unfortunately although in time he changed the name of the organization to the Jehovah's Witnesses in order to distinguish the new organization from all the former Bible Students who still adhered to the Pastor's teachings he merely made a small change in the title of the publishing company's name adding the words "of Pennsylvania", viz. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania.

This has led to a lot of confusion over the years amoungst those seeking the original teachings of the Bible Students, many being confused by later publications written by the Watch Tower's of the Jehovah's Witnesses. The original Watch Tower's (those published by the Bible Students) are dated from July 1879-Dec 1916. Of course we have more recent Bible Student materials which are published through various publishing houses as well as independently by certain classes, but none of these materials have anything to do with the teachings of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Last I heard from a former Witness friend (now a Bible Student) was that the Society frown on any of its members reading the earlier Towers.

I know The history.

In fact I have one of the Jehovah witness books from pre-1900.

"Bible Students" vs. Jehovah's Witnesses - Dispel the Darkness Ministries

Jehovah's Witnesses and Bible Student are two divisions of the cult of Charles Tase Russell.

No different then the many divisions of Mormonism being followers of Joseph Smith.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Better get used to it my sister, most threads get high jacked over time, some right away, as it appears yours has.

Just because a lot of people are jerks doesn't mean I can't ask for basic considerations. Doesn't remotely mean I'll always get it (I am a realist and acknowledge that fact), but I'll at least ask.