Some good information for Dave

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Dave L

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Dave cannot read that like you imagine, like most ppl can, so don't hold your breath ok. Dave is not here, and I don't mean that as a put-down. Dave profits from tax arrangements with the world, and Jesus is strictly his vehicle. You might get away from the Mormon angle and just Quote some Scripture he doesn't like, and seeI don't need to google the obvious Dave, many former Mormons also become heroin addicts prolly, so what
Not aware of any so far. But they make good Christians when they see the truth.
 

justbyfaith

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Who are you directing this to?
I was referring to the word semi-pelagianism.

If I were the devil, I would isolate sound doctrine and then create negative-sounding labels for it so that people would avoid it like the plague.

I'm not saying that semi-pelagianism is sound doctrine (because it has not been defined for the sake of discussion); but it does have a negative sounding label and as such, it needs to be examined rather than sloughed off as something that we need to bury our heads in the sand over.

Because if I were him I would also camouflage things by also identifying things that are false doctrine with negative sounding labels; and therefore our only recourse is to examine every doctrine biblically, as true Bereans (Acts 17:11).
 
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1stCenturyLady

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Ok lots of points to address here--
- LDS believe very firmly that the only perfect person to have walked this earth is Christ. All others (including the prophets) are men serving God. Yes, they can be His mouthpieces, but that does not imply constant 24/7 perfection. This includes Brigham Young.
- Following the above, an individual person saying something (whomever that man is) does not make it automatically LDS doctrine. Rather, like every other faith, LDS have a process of accepting formally doctrines/cannon, voices of multiple witnesses, etc.
- The Journal of Discourses has never remotely been accepted as formal doctrines/cannon. It has many problems with it and is NOT a LDS doctrinal source.
- Side note: A low-quality anti-Mormon source will frequently heavily quote form it, while neglecting to tell the reader all of the above, that this is not a actual source of LDS doctrinal source, and these things they're quoting are not actual LDS doctrines.

Short answer: this idea never was LDS doctrine and still isn't.

Longer answer: even back in the 1800's this idea was very controversial, highly misunderstood, and never accept by the Church at large (formally or informally). Even Brigham Young himself pretty much abandoned the idea later in his life. Come late 1800's it had been pretty much discarded. In the mid 1900's it was formally discard.

That is good to know.
 
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Dave L

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I was referring to the word semi-pelagianism.

If I were the devil, I would isolate sound doctrine and then create negative-sounding labels for it so that people would avoid it like the plague.

I'm not saying that semi-pelagianism is sound doctrine; but it does have a negative sounding label and as such, it needs to be examined rather than sloughed off as something that we need to bury our heads in the sand over.
It's an interesting study and well worth the time. Pelagius Morgan VS ST. Augustine is a good search phrase.
 

justbyfaith

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Let's hash it out here. Some people are very focused and do not easily go from place to place.
 

justbyfaith

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From The Pelagian Controversy by R.C. Sproul

"Even the Council of Trent, which teaches a form of semi-Pelagianism, in its first three canons"
.
.
"However, the struggle within the church now is between the Augustinian view and various forms of semi-Pelagianism, which seeks a middle ground between the views of Pelagius and Augustine. Semi-Pelagianism teaches that grace is necessary to achieve righteousness, but that this grace is not imparted to the sinner unilaterally or sovereignly as is maintained by Reformed theology. Rather, the semi-Pelagian argues that the individual makes the initial step of faith before that saving grace is given. Thus, God imparts the grace of faith in conjunction with the sinner’s work in seeking God. It seems a little mixing of grace and works doesn’t worry the semi-Pelagian."
.
.
At least now we have the concept defined just above.

I would say in response that if I am considered to be semi-pelagian in that I hold that we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; that in saying this I am not promoting that works in any way are the entry way into salvation, as R.C. Sproul seems to want to say in the above words. It is clear that he holds to a Calvinistic theology as do many respected teachers in the body of Christ. However some of them do take this to an extreme, to the point of denying such passages as Romans 5:1-2.
 
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Jane_Doe22

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Bravo...Good for you!



Get the fact(S) straight? Impossible.

And that is the whole crux of the condundrum.

ANYONE claiming to associate with ANY particular NAMED Religious Organization...

MUST "BY AN OTHERS DETERMINATION" (ha ha)....unequivocally BELIEVE IN EVERY SINGLE THING the "other" person HAS "HEARD ABOUT" that "particular" Religious Organization!!

IT DOES NOT MATTER, what one says...
IT DOES NOT MATTER, even IF the "other" does not BELIEVE "every single thing about THEIR OWN religious organization"....

"THEY" are the prosecutor...and "YOU" the defendant!!

Not much different that any court room...
It is NOT about the WHOLE truth.
It is NOT about what is JUST.

It is solely ABOUT a "WIN"...and their pride puffed up.

Why so MANY "religious" NAME TAGS?
Precisely because people in general DO NOT AGREE WITH EVERY SINGLE THING some people with the NAME TAG promote.

So, cudos to you. Stick with the religious NAME tag of your choosing and "too bad" for the "Persecutors" who FAIL to acknowledge your own testimony of Belief.
Christ the Lord Jesus heard you, and that is all that really matters.

God Bless,
Taken
After studying dozens of different faith traditions, I've come across a number of commonalities. One that all share is:
There are certain doctrines which are non-negotiable must-believes.
Others doctrines/ideas which it's ok for people to have different interpretations/beliefs/opinions on.

A classic example of that in Abhramic faiths: Must believe -- God created the world. Different interpretations/beliefs/opinions -- the specifics of how this was done. You'll find people whom are 6-day-literalists, 6-day-figurative folks, anti-evolution, evolution-as-God's-tool, etc

Part of honestly and earnestly studying any faith tradition is to learn which things are concerned the must-believes, which are diverse, and the reasoning behind this.
 
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CoreIssue

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Jane_Doe22 wants actual LDS material to prove Mormonism is a cult. Well, as posted before here's all the material one needs.

Many God's, the father an offspring of another God and Jesus and Satan are brothers and offspring of the father and his wives.

Book of Mormon | LDS.org

As a woman Jane cannot be a temple Mormon.

That Angel on top of Mormon temples is Moroni.
 

CoreIssue

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After studying dozens of different faith traditions, I've come across a number of commonalities. One that all share is:
There are certain doctrines which are non-negotiable must-believes.
Others doctrines/ideas which it's ok for people to have different interpretations/beliefs/opinions on.

A classic example of that in Abhramic faiths: Must believe -- God created the world. Different interpretations/beliefs/opinions -- the specifics of how this was done. You'll find people whom are 6-day-literalists, 6-day-figurative folks, anti-evolution, evolution-as-God's-tool, etc

Part of honestly and earnestly studying any faith tradition is to learn which things are concerned the must-believes, which are diverse, and the reasoning behind this.

I have studied many denominations in different religions.

Without a doubt Mormonism Christian cult. That means claims to be Christian and sounds like Christian using Christian words, but is not Christian.

You keep trying to convince others of your Christianity by engaging in conversations here. That is a common tactic of Mormonism. Get them in to their churches with non-controversial claims get them to work up the ladder so men become Temple Mormons, where they learn all the secret and deeper truths.
 

Jane_Doe22

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A Biblical understanding is: Three in One, and One in Three; plenty of Scriptures for this.
And that is something LDS Christians 100% agree on. There is disagreement on *how* three are one between Athanasian and LDS Christians, as previously discussed.
 

Jane_Doe22

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I have studied many denominations in different religions.

Without a doubt Mormonism Christian cult. That means claims to be Christian and sounds like Christian using Christian words, but is not Christian.

You keep trying to convince others of your Christianity by engaging in conversations here. That is a common tactic of Mormonism. Get them in to their churches with non-controversial claims get them to work up the ladder so men become Temple Mormons, where they learn all the secret and deeper truths.
CoreIssue, I have explained things to you many times, and offered to explain anything further.
You have blatantly ignored all this information in favor of laughable untruths, literally plaining you know everything (despite never actually stepping foot in any these churches you claim to have studied).
I can't do anything for someone who doesn't want to hear it.
 
D

Dave L

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From The Pelagian Controversy by R.C. Sproul

"Even the Council of Trent, which teaches a form of semi-Pelagianism, in its first three canons"
.
.
"However, the struggle within the church now is between the Augustinian view and various forms of semi-Pelagianism, which seeks a middle ground between the views of Pelagius and Augustine. Semi-Pelagianism teaches that grace is necessary to achieve righteousness, but that this grace is not imparted to the sinner unilaterally or sovereignly as is maintained by Reformed theology. Rather, the semi-Pelagian argues that the individual makes the initial step of faith before that saving grace is given. Thus, God imparts the grace of faith in conjunction with the sinner’s work in seeking God. It seems a little mixing of grace and works doesn’t worry the semi-Pelagian."
.
.
At least now we have the concept defined just above.

I would say in response that if I am considered to be semi-pelagian in that I hold that we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; that in saying this I am not promoting that works in any way are the entry way into salvation, as R.C. Sproul seems to want to say in the above words. It is clear that he holds to a Calvinistic theology as do many respected teachers in the body of Christ. However some of them do take this to an extreme, to the point of denying such passages as Romans 5:1-2.
Thanks for checking into this. The problem with your view is that it takes a work of the flesh under your power to place you into position where God is obligated to save you. And this is not Christianity.
 

bbyrd009

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Not aware of any so far. But they make good Christians when they see the truth.
whatever gave you the impression that Good Samaritans could be accepted but Mormons could not, Dave?
If you continue to honor your contract and teach Death More Abundantly you are gonna get tossed prolly ok
God does not judge like Dave does
 

CoreIssue

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CoreIssue, I have explained things to you many times, and offered to explain anything further.
You have blatantly ignored all this information in favor of laughable untruths, literally plaining you know everything (despite never actually stepping foot in any these churches you claim to have studied).
I can't do anything for someone who doesn't want to hear it.

You have been evasive and light and lied to try to protect Mormonism.

As in you as a woman claiming to be a temple Mormon. That is a flat out lie.

I have proven my claims by posting links to LDS material, historical material and former Temple Mormons.

Your explanation is you want to have a discussion just between the two of us to set me straight. But I don't need set straight when the facts are on my side.

Simple fact too is more than churches are part of the lie.

Are you going to deny those links I posted are genuine LDS?

Even when you claim others are fake Mormon the simple fact remains Mormonism is not a singular unified whole.

And no, you cannot do anything with someone who knows the facts and will not bite into your lies.
 

Jane_Doe22

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You have been evasive and light and lied to try to protect Mormonism.
That is a false and completely unneeded personal attack.
As in you as a woman claiming to be a temple Mormon. That is a flat out lie.
Actually it's completely true. In fact, at any random visit to the temple, likely 75% of the people there are female.
I have proven my claims by posting links to LDS material, historical material and former Temple Mormons.
Not so. Except I will acknowledge you site ex-axe-grinders.
Your explanation is you want to have a discussion just between the two of us to set me straight. But I don't need set straight when the facts are on my side.
Ears so shut...
Even when you claim others are fake Mormon the simple fact remains Mormonism is not a singular unified whole.
Your axe-grinder reports a frequently completely false (example, Ed Decker and his anti-cult disciples). Other links you just completely misrepresent and don't care.
 
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CoreIssue

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That is a false and completely unneeded personal attack.

Actually it's completely true. In fact, at any random visit to the temple, likely 75% of the people there are female.

Not so. Except I will acknowledge you site ex-axe-grinders.

Ears so shut...

Your axe-grinder reports a frequently completely false (example, Ed Decker and his anti-cult disciples). Other links you just completely misrepresent and don't care.

And this is not a personal attack from you?
CoreIssue, I have explained things to you many times, and offered to explain anything further.
You have blatantly ignored all this information in favor of laughable untruths, literally plaining you know everything (despite never actually stepping foot in any these churches you claim to have studied).
I can't do anything for someone who doesn't want to hear it.

So you're saying the doctrines and covenants and other documents on the LDS site support you?

In prior discussions I cited where it talks about us all preexistence in heaven before being born. And that Satan and Christ are literal children of God the father. Plus more.

And you never answered my question about what your founder Joseph Smith and Brigham Young had to say.

And avoided the Angel Moroni statues the tops of temples.

So are you doing here is to repeat your old efforts because you thought enough time had passed they would work this time.