Somebody Lied

[mjrhealth]

In conclusion, the Bible is the written word of God, powerful, sharper than a two edged sword

Actually Jesus is, it was Him and Him alone given that tile till men came along and made God a liar, even He quotes in teh bible that scripture doesnt give you life only He does yet He is ignored as always, So tell me which God do you worship, the NIV version te hKN teh NKG the NSV or one of the other 70 versions of God ???? One God, one Jesus one Holy Spirirt one truth yet over 70 versions of His Word. amazing isnt it. Never said teh bibel doesnt have what God has to say, jsut said it isnt His word. teh devil and God are not one and teh same so when te hdevils speaks it isnt Gods word, unless your God is teh devil.

 

[FHII]

Actually Jesus is, it was Him and Him alone given that tile till men came along and made God a liar, even He quotes in teh bible that scripture doesnt give you life only He does yet He is ignored as always, So tell me which God do you worship, the NIV version te hKN teh NKG the NSV or one of the other 70 versions of God ???? One God, one Jesus one Holy Spirirt one truth yet over 70 versions of His Word. amazing isnt it. Never said teh bibel doesnt have what God has to say, jsut said it isnt His word. teh devil and God are not one and teh same so when te hdevils speaks it isnt Gods word, unless your God is teh devil.

Jesus is the Word made flesh. The Bible is the word of God. Note the punctuation.

Mjrhealth, you seem to have a problem that Satan is quoted in the Bible, as are many men. Some of them Holy men, some of them are Satan's. In fact, a little realized fact is that Nebuchanezzar even has a testimony in the Bible!

It still is God's word and his testimony. It is his story and necessary that he had to commission the words of others to fully tell his testimony.

If you grab a red letter edition of the Bible... Any one of them... And if you only read what Jesus said you would be lost in context without the black words. But the black words as well as the red words were commmissioned by God. That same Holy Spirit which you claim whispers in your ear did so to Moses through John. Holy men of old moved on by the spirit.

I vow to make this the last time I voice my opinion on this. I hope I can keep that vow. But my problem is that you claim Jesus talks to you and that is the Word (and the word) yet what his own Apostles wrote isn't? What God's prophets isn't? Even Luke, James, Jude.... Men who were close to Jesus... Some even half brothers in the flesh and others commissioned by Apostles... That isn't the word of God?

Personally, I have never said God ain't talking to you. I have my doubts, because I don't believe any spirit of God is going to stray from the scripture nor deny it is His testimony.

The Bible says to try the spirits. Human nature itself and common sense would agree. If a spirit is talking to you about religious issues then you should have something to compare it to.

Yes, there are a lot of versions. I myself stick to the KJV and I have my reasons. But I've never faulted anyone for going with another. Furthermore, I don't see many of them denying what Christ nor what his Holy men said on a large scale.

When we (you and I) get away from this Bible issue being the word of God.... You and I agree on some key points. I love your stance on grace for example!

But no... Jesus never said the Bible isn't the word of God. In fact he validated it when he said it testified of him.

The Bible as his word points us to him. This is why he himself quoted it, those who knew him in the flesh (Peter, Matthew, Mark,John, etc...) quoted it and even those who were touched by him in the spirit (Paul) quoted it.

So for you to deny it doesn't make much sense to me. Especially when it is what you quote so often.

I love ya bro. I agree with much you say.... But I would like to make this my last word on this controversy.

 

[mjrhealth]

The Bible as his word points us to him.

And it doesnt give you life only His spoken word does, its there right in your bible. 70 versions of God make your choice, i choose teh living God teh living word "Jesus" and teh Spirit of truth.

 

[bbyrd009]

thing is mjr the Book is God~Breathed, even if it is not the Word, and it is the Book, the Law, that will be fulfilled. How else can you justify that God = Word, and recognize where someone is spiritually who believes God = Book? Which, not meaning to comment one way or the other there right now, it is what it is. So the Book is your evidence. The canon is closed, too, so nothing the Spirit tells you is going to be adding any new lines; there is nothing new under the sun iow. The Book is what is to be fulfilled.

i do see where you are trying to go here, but i suggest that a more spiritual understanding of some verse that is maybe being taken too literally or whatever would be a better course than invalidating Scripture, which is how people reveal themselves to you. It just seems like the far side of the pendulum swing from "the Bible is the Word" wadr.

 

[mjrhealth]

thing is mjr the Book is God~Breathed, even if it is not the Word, and it is the Book, the Law, that will be fulfilled. How else can you justify that God = Word, and recognize where someone is spiritually who believes God = Book? Which, not meaning to comment one way or the other there right now, it is what it is. So the Book is your evidence. The canon is closed, too, so nothing the Spirit tells you is going to be adding any new lines; there is nothing new under the sun iow. The Book is what is to be fulfilled.

It does not say" teh bible is God breathed" it actually says "scripture." God gave man the Holy Spirit for a reason, man replaced Him with a book. and look at what it has done. Is Christ divided??? Is God the author of confusion??? So many confused christians speaks volumes does it not???

 

[justaname]

It does not say" teh bible is God breathed" it actually says "scripture." God gave man the Holy Spirit for a reason, man replaced Him with a book. and look at what it has done. Is Christ divided??? Is God the author of confusion??? So many confused christians speaks volumes does it not???

What about those people in Jamestown, they believed God was speaking to them too. How about the people in Waco, David was Jesus and they believed they were being led by the Spirit. Oh then what about the Shammen in Africa, they believe in being led by spirits and not following any book.

If we leave ourselves with no reference or book then who is to say who is being led by God and who is not? One man may say God said start a war with the rest of the world while a different person says God said to remain in peace. Who is right. One man say Jesus is not God, the Spirit told him, while another says Jesus is God and the Spirit told him. What man is being led by the Spirit?

God's scriptures are holy, and they correct the foul thinking of men. Arrogance and pride breeds denial of teaching through another, let alone through God's holy writ.

 

[mjrhealth]

God's scriptures are holy, and they correct the foul thinking of men. Arrogance and pride breeds denial of teaching through another, let alone through God's holy writ.

If teh bible was Holy all men who touched it would die, for our sin would not allow us to be near such a thing. God gives us His Spirit to teach us teh truth, but rejected of men so they can have it there way as it has always being.

 

[justaname]

If teh bible was Holy all men who touched it would die, for our sin would not allow us to be near such a thing. God gives us His Spirit to teach us teh truth, but rejected of men so they can have it there way as it has always being.

You are confused. God's Spirit is also holy and I am indwelled by Him. I did not reject Him. That makes me holy. I don't kill everyone I touch.

Many articles of the tabernacle were holy. Men touched them, even stole them, and did not die. You would know this if you studied the Scriptures.

Jesus used the Scriptures during His temptation against the Devil. Are we not to be like Jesus, knowing the Scriptures?

The Sword of the Spirit is the Scriptures. You are unarmed if you deny the Scriptures.

I do not know who you listen to if you deny the power of God's holy writ, but it is not the Holy Spirit. He will never deny God's Word or word.

All these people who disagree believe the Spirit is leading them. By putting down the book the problem only gets worse, not better. You have been deceived and have become a deceiver yourself.

 

[bbyrd009]

It does not say" teh bible is God breathed" it actually says "scripture." God gave man the Holy Spirit for a reason, man replaced Him with a book. and look at what it has done. Is Christ divided??? Is God the author of confusion??? So many confused christians speaks volumes does it not???

So fine, then "Scripture" is God~Breathed, which we still have in the Lexicon (which is the only Bible i recognize anyway). And imo the argument about "confused Christians" then resolves, using the Book, as we have copious passages about "the blind leading the blind" that we of course apply to everyone else, if we are seven times worse off than before, or have missed Paul's warning about the wolves coming in as soon as he leaves...or cannot make the connection to those who will hear "i never knew you..." etc. It's all in there, mjr.

You were a "confused Christian" once, were you not? So, you voluntarily entered upon that path, when you turned down the Hippy that came to you, right--don't guess i've brought that out here; how everyone on earth can basically be described as a Hippy, an Atheist, or a Fundie--when you turned down that person spouting all the "Love one another is all you need" jazz, because you were young and ambitious, perhaps, or felt that God was surely much more serious and religious than Hippies, whatever.

And you came out the other side, right? So see that all of those "confused Christians" are just your perception of a moment in time, and does not speak to anyone's final state, if they are seeking God. And if they are seeking the world, or a way to stay on the fence, you are wasting your time anyway, right?

 

[bbyrd009]

If teh bible was Holy all men who touched it would die, for our sin would not allow us to be near such a thing. God gives us His Spirit to teach us teh truth, but rejected of men so they can have it there way as it has always being.

i agree, but imo there will then be a Scripture that cannot be confronted without CogDiss, and it is not your mission to make anyone believe like you do, but to suggest reflecting upon the cognitive dissonance that the Scripture introduces. It is pointless, most likely, to suggest becoming like a little child, to adults who still ask little children things for a laugh. You are going to be dismissed, just like we all dismissed the Hippy when he came to us, yes?

 

[bbyrd009]

You are confused. God's Spirit is also holy and I am indwelled by Him. I did not reject Him. That makes me holy. I don't kill everyone I touch.

are you sure? "You are confused" is also a way to kill someone, jan.

Wadr it is just another way to say that you know, when you prolly do not know, like the Book says. Not even bothering with getting into how you make the Book = God, verifying that you do not know. Not saying that i know anything either, but wadr i am seeing a distinct correlation herenow with the conflation of Atheists and Fundies

 

[bbyrd009]

I do not know who you listen to if you deny the power of God's holy writ, but it is not the Holy Spirit. He will never deny God's Word or word.

He is God's Word, so now it is you that is "confused," see, and now you are making no sense, understand? Which i don't actually mean, except for illumination, ok, BAM believe what you believe.

As soon as i read "Easter" in your KJV, and the Spirit tells me "Passover," then your argument runs aground, imo. So put me down for "denying the power of God's holy writ," too; if you are going to turn the Book into God.

So, all are deceived, and btw i actually agree with the Spirit of your post, for the most part, and perceive that you likely have a better heart than me to boot lol. So please don't take this wrong.

 

[justaname]

He is God's Word, so now it is you that is "confused," see, and now you are making no sense, understand? Which i don't actually mean, except for illumination, ok, BAM believe what you believe.

As soon as i read "Easter" in your KJV, and the Spirit tells me "Passover," then your argument runs aground, imo. So put me down for "denying the power of God's holy writ," too; if you are going to turn the Book into God.

So, all are deceived, and btw i actually agree with the Spirit of your post, for the most part, and perceive that you likely have a better heart than me to boot lol. So please don't take this wrong.

Jesus is the Logos. Nowhere are we taught the Holy Spirit is God's Word.

 

[bbyrd009]

Jesus is the Logos. Nowhere are we taught the Holy Spirit is God's Word.

17Take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is God's Word.

 

[justaname]

The sword of the Spirit is not the same as the Holy Spirit. Then the context is teaching the Scripture is our offense in spiritual warefare.

and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, - Ephesians 6:17

Refer back to Jesus' temptation where He used Scripture to combat the Devil.

καὶ τὴν μάχαιραν τοῦ πνεύματος, ὅ ἐστιν ῥῆμα θεοῦ.
And the sword of the Spirit is the word of God

Notice the Scripture uses "rema" and not "logos"...

 

[bbyrd009]

so, you have simply come down on one side of the "Logos/Rhema" argument then, in order to make your pov work, it seems to me. They strike me as the masculine and feminine descriptions of the same thing, Spirit.

 

[justaname]

so, you have simply come down on one side of the "Logos/Rhema" argument then, in order to make your pov work, it seems to me. They strike me as the masculine and feminine descriptions of the same thing, Spirit.

Here is a definition for Logos....

the independent personified expression of God, the Logos. Our lit. shows traces of a way of thinking that was widespread in contemporary syncretism, as well as in Jewish wisdom lit. and Philo, the most prominent feature of which is the concept of the Logos, the independent, personified ‘Word’ (of God): GJs 11:2 (word of the angel to Mary) συνλήμψῃ ἐκ Λόγου αὐτοῦ (sc. τοῦ πάντων Δεσπότου). J 1:1abc, 14 (cp. Just., A I, 23, 2; Mel., P. 9, 61 and oft. by all apolog., exc.. Ar.). It is the distinctive teaching of the Fourth Gospel that this divine ‘Word’ took on human form in a historical person, that is, in Jesus

William Arndt, Frederick W. Danker, and Walter Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 601.

Here is a definition of rema....

that which is said, word, saying, expression, or statement of any kind

William Arndt, Frederick W. Danker, and Walter Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 905.


It is more than a masculine/feminine thing. They are two completely different concepts. One is a "word" and the other is the "Word". In that particular verse "rema" is referring to the Scripture. In John where Jesus is associated with the "Logos" the term, logos, was known amongst the Greek world to be a divine concept.

In neither of these verses are the terms referring to the Spirit as they are nouns themselves.

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, i wasn't really trying to conflate the two anyway, so much as suggest that Scripture may have. "According to Nee a passage of the logos can move into being rhema if it becomes shown to apply to the specific individual." Which i am not too interested in getting into that argument again, but others might want to. This appears to be as close as they come in the Book, and Rhema should prolly be more associated with sword than Spirit there anyway, i guess? Iow it is possible that the Spirit could be characterized elsewhere other than sword...

The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of might, the Spirit of the knowledge and fear

But honestly i think a discussion of whether Rhema even = Scripture as we understand It might be more productive, rather than maybe attempting to over-define God, which it might just be me, but that discussion makes me uncomfortable anyway. I guess obviously if the Spirit breathes a Word, even straight to me or whatever, no Book involved, the Spirit and the Word are still nonetheless distinguished in some manner; but i think i have to agree with Nee there, it would be a very fine distinction for me. Although i guess not for anyone that i repeated it to, maybe.

17Take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is God's Word.

 

[H. Richard]

I gotta side with Stranger. I can answer many of those questions, but I need the Bible to do it. Its the only primary and public source we have. If you don't hold it as the words of God.... I can't discuss it with you.

The bottom line is that far too many people have developed their view of God based on selected scripture.

**
According to the Bible those that do not have the Holy Spirit can not understand the Bible. Most will ready believe men in religions who take the scriptures to prove a religious doctrine. But only those who have the Holy Spirit can understand the truth. It says so in the scriptures.

According to the scriptures and God's dealing with the Jews, there will only be a remnant saved.

Many will try to tell you they have the Holy Spirit by their display of works. But Jesus told us that is not possible.

John 3:6-8
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
NKJV

.I will side with mjrhealth.

 

[FHII]

**
According to the Bible those that do not have the Holy Spirit can not understand the Bible. Most will ready believe men in religions who take the scriptures to prove a religious doctrine. But only those who have the Holy Spirit can understand the truth. It says so in the scriptures.

According to the scriptures and God's dealing with the Jews, there will only be a remnant saved.

Many will try to tell you they have the Holy Spirit by their display of works. But Jesus told us that is not possible.

John 3:6-8
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
NKJV

.I will side with mjrhealth.

Haven't seen you in a while H. Richard... Missed you my friend!

I disagree with Mjrhealth on his stance on many things. He's right about grace through faith, an I also agree with his stance (and yours) about the Holy Spirit... Up to a point.

What I agree with Stranger about (and disagree with Mjr about) is his stance on the importance of the Bible. Mjr claims it is not the word of God. My comprehension of his stance may be incomplete, but based on what I have read I disagree.

Its pretty difficult to understand his point of view when he tells me its not the word of God and we should follow the spirit (whatever he believes that to be) and then turns around and quotes the Bible as though he believes it has authority.

So H. Richard... Do you believe in the Bible's authority as Mjrhealth does? Because as far as I can gather... He doesn't. But he quotes from it as he does.

Second question: what if anything do you disagree with me about concerning this point? My assrtation is that the Bible is truth and it is the word of God. Do you disagree?


I have to add this. I have had my say against Mjrhealth about this. I presented my arguement and vowed to let it rest.

Mjrhealth: despite this disagreement, I have nothing against you and I stand with you on many issues. I have stood with you on other threads. Please don't think I am against you on everything just becausr I disagree on this one point.