Something my pastor said during service

[Wormwood]

Wormwood,

Thanks for playing along. That was pretty funny, although you should talk to ol' williemac about how one sided you are...you non-neutrality is showing my friend.

Well, I've never been neutral in this discussion. I think I have made my position pretty clear. I do respect those who have a conscientious objection to drinking alcohol though. The last thing I would want to do is convince someone to do something they feel is sinful for them. However, that does not change my personal feeling on the matter regarding the teaching of Scripture. :)

 

[KingJ]

What would that reason be?

Hi. The line above.

We're not really talking about just wine are we? Therefore, did Timothy take a little Jack Daniels for his tummy?

What is the Greek word for pure grain?

Two, four, six, eight

Watch how we extrapolate

Wine=beer=whiskey=?????

Round and round and round it goes

Where does it stop?

Perhaps wormwood kingj williemac and River knows.......

We must definitely consider the % alcohol.

CJ you are throwing the baby out with the bath water. Alcohol in moderation is not evil (X). Since when is a substance that is not a health hazard when used in moderation, evil?

X is not equal to rape. X is not addictive and harmful over time like nicotine. X is not addictive and an immediate health hazard like heroine. X does not lead to debauchery unless you allow it too. Going from 2 drinks to 10 is a choice to over indulge. A bowl of ice cream does not equal a tub.

Do you really believe having one or two drinks is a venial sin that leads to mortal sin? I would say once off drunkenness with the world is a venial sin that leads to continual drunkenness with the world and debauchery / mortal sin.

1 Cor 6:10 Nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, (X or once off drunk does not eqaul 'drunkard') nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God
Isa 5:11 Woe to those who rise early in the morning, that they may run after strong drink, who tarry late into the evening as wine inflames them!
1 Tim 3:8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.
Ecc 9:7 Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do.

You and SL are also naughty ;). There is no reason to be sarcastic or fight on this. Most here are respected Christians who judge ourselves harshly before God 1 Cor 11:31...and that is the bottom line imho.

 

[Secondhand Lion]

KIngJ,

I couldn't help but notice that you pointed out that I am naughty. This is a correct discernment. I am indeed naughty from time to time. I try as best as possible to not be naughty, but alas, Christ is not finished with me yet. This being said, even admitted to, I can not help but notice something that is deep in the recesses of your mind.

First you make the argument that drinking alcohol is not bad except for a couple of specific circumstances. That is a fine viewpoint to have, but is it coincidence that you then made an almost moral relativism statement at the end? "We are naughty also". You had just gotten done telling us that there is nothing wrong with it. Why point out we do naughty things also? (what does also mean if it isn't equating some level of "naughtiness" to drinking)

Moral relativism does not work, never has. You will notice it all over the place, from politics to the radio talk show hosts, just because another person does something wrong...it does not make what someone else is doing okay.

So tell me. Is drinking indeed naughty? If not, why point out we do naughty things also? Why was the comparison drawn? Is it possible that the little kid inside you that hid the first bottle of alcohol when coming out of the store because he was afraid someone would see, is still in there telling you it is wrong? Could the Spirit be being quenched? Have we been justifying it so long that we have forgotten that the little kid in you told you to hide it? Or is there nothing wrong and we can all sit down this Sunday and take a sip while the preacher is preaching (or who knows the singing might just get better)? Do you drink while He is preaching? Should we be able to? Would something bug you inside about doing that? What would stop you if it did?

From this perspective, you can see why we draw the comparison to other things we might consider "naughty". Which one of the naughty things in my life that may not be directly addressed in the bible is it okay for me to keep? Is it okay to look at porn just a little? David was a man after God's own heart and liked to look at things he shouldn't. So should I take the moral of the story to be...it is okay to look a little...and I can still be a man after God's own heart? I think I know you well enough to say you would consider that rubbish....but I could rationalize it if I wanted to. The bible does not address other illicit drugs, the only drug (depressant) mentioned is alcohol. I won't go into all the questions about other drugs because you have addressed them already. But hopefully you can see why we make the connection.

Meh, I'm winded for now.

SL

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

SL

You are "wielding the temperance hatchet well." However, as the Holy Spirit convicts, those that partake of the "spirits" just want this thread to end, as they keep imploring.

What is the Greek phrase for "old fashioned conviction?"

Are there any other behaviors we keep our children from and yet demand as adults?

Someone needs to carry this nation.

 

[KingJ]

So tell me. Is drinking indeed naughty? If not, why point out we do naughty things also? Why was the comparison drawn?

Of course for a kid drinking is naughty. So too is not having an afternoon nap.

You need to focus on drunkard and debauchery as the sins.

From this perspective, you can see why we draw the comparison to other things we might consider "naughty". Which one of the naughty things in my life that may not be directly addressed in the bible is it okay for me to keep? Is it okay to look at porn just a little? David was a man after God's own heart and liked to look at things he shouldn't. So should I take the moral of the story to be...it is okay to look a little...and I can still be a man after God's own heart? I think I know you well enough to say you would consider that rubbish....but I could rationalize it if I wanted to. The bible does not address other illicit drugs, the only drug (depressant) mentioned is alcohol. I won't go into all the questions about other drugs because you have addressed them already. But hopefully you can see why we make the connection.

No, porn is wrong. Even a little. How is lusting after woman...who are paid to do something disgusting / defile their bodies on par with casual drinking?

Alcohol is only on par with drug use when its abused.

If not, why point out we do naughty things also? Why was the comparison drawn?

You and CJ are getting sarcastic on an immaterial matter = naughty ;).

Material matter = drunkennes and debauchery.

 

[Secondhand Lion]

Of course for a kid drinking is naughty. So too is not having an afternoon nap.

You need to focus on drunkard and debauchery as the sins.


No, porn is wrong. Even a little. How is lusting after woman...who are paid to do something disgusting / defile their bodies on par with casual drinking?

Alcohol is only on par with drug use when its abused.


You and CJ are getting sarcastic on an immaterial matter = naughty ;).

Material matter = drunkennes and debauchery.

Do you drink Sunday morning while the pastor is preaching?

 

[River Jordan]

Are there any other behaviors we keep our children from and yet demand as adults?

Driving cars, voting, serving in the military...

Do you drink Sunday morning while the pastor is preaching?

No. Do you watch football while the pastor is preaching? Do you read the newspaper while the pastor is preaching? Do you bathe while the pastor is preaching?

No? Then I guess watching football, reading newspapers, and bathing must be sins, eh?

 

[Wormwood]

Do you drink Sunday morning while the pastor is preaching?

Nice post RJ. I was thinking the same thing. Pretty poor analogy for determining what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior.

 

[Secondhand Lion]

Driving cars, voting, serving in the military...


No. Do you watch football while the pastor is preaching? Do you read the newspaper while the pastor is preaching? Do you bathe while the pastor is preaching?

No? Then I guess watching football, reading newspapers, and bathing must be sins, eh?

Yikes really? And wormwood? Really?

Please keep it apples to apples. Would I drink water while the pastor is preaching? Yes.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Driving cars, voting, and military service are not described in scripture as being sinful.

In many nations there are no arbitrary age restrictions on driving or military service.

On rural farms children drive when they are able. Do we give junior his fifth when we think he can handle it?

If you could vote using a fake ID at 14, (it's easy in Philadelphia) would you hide it as you left the polling place (assuming the panthers were not around)?

By behaviors I was referring to sinful acts. But then you knew that but couldn't think of any, and in a burst of hubris pride had to have some answer.

 

[River Jordan]

Yikes really? And wormwood? Really?

Please keep it apples to apples. Would I drink water while the pastor is preaching? Yes.

We also drink wine while the pastor is talking. We call it Communion.

Driving cars, voting, and military service are not described in scripture as being sinful.

In many nations there are no arbitrary age restrictions on driving or military service.

On rural farms children drive when they are able. Do we give junior his fifth when we think he can handle it?

If you could vote using a fake ID at 14, (it's easy in Philadelphia) would you hide it as you left the polling place (assuming the panthers were not around)?

By behaviors I was referring to sinful acts. But then you knew that but couldn't think of any, and in a burst of hubris pride had to have some answer.

In many cultures children drink wine (including Jewish culture).

Your arguments are failing on their own merits.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Speaking of failing arguments. So River is advocating the use of alcohol for children?

 

[River Jordan]

Speaking of failing arguments. So River is advocating the use of alcohol for children?

I don't think it's appropriate from a biological standpoint. Children are still developing. However, I don't go around to Jews and tell them their cultural and traditions are wrong.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

What does alcohol do to child development?

 

[Secondhand Lion]

We also drink wine while the pastor is talking. We call it Communion.


In many cultures children drink wine (including Jewish culture).

Your arguments are failing on their own merits.

Sigh....

Okay, so the last obvious question that needs to be asked.

KingJ, what else have you agreed with River on about the bible except drinking alcohol? Wormwood? This question may or may not mean anything, but it is worth asking.

SL

 

[River Jordan]

What does alcohol do to child development?

In general, it can negative effects on the developing brain. Also, studies have found that abuse of alcohol by young teens can lead to later health problems like high blood pressure. Until about age 17-18, the brain isn't fully developed, especially the part of the brain that processes risk and actions = consequences (it's why teens do such stupid thing), so they are more likely to abuse alcohol than adults.

Sigh....

Okay, so the last obvious question that needs to be asked.

KingJ, what else have you agreed with River on about the bible except drinking alcohol? Wormwood? This question may or may not mean anything, but it is worth asking.

Trying to sow discord in those who disagree with you, eh? Seems a little desperate.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

So, moderate use by children is acceptable?

What do studies show about negative consequences of alcohol use in adults?

You should post them, you won't so soon I will.

 

[Wormwood]

All these arguments against the morality of alcohol in moderation are non sequitur. Our actions in a particular social setting or our culture's expectations have no bearing on the actual teachings of the Bible or what constitutes immoral behavior. I highly doubt any biblical ethicist has ever based his New Testament ethics paradigm on what a person is able to do while the pastor is preaching or what is not permissible for children under the age of 18.

CJ, how could "driving cars" and "voting" be described in the Bible as sinful anyway? You think they had popular votes for Caesar while he was driving around his Cadilac? smh

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Wormwood,

That's the point I was making to River.

Do try to keep up.

 

[kjw47]

All these arguments against the morality of alcohol in moderation are non sequitur. Our actions in a particular social setting or our culture's expectations have no bearing on the actual teachings of the Bible or what constitutes immoral behavior. I highly doubt any biblical ethicist has ever based his New Testament ethics paradigm on what a person is able to do while the pastor is preaching or what is not permissible for children under the age of 18.

CJ, how could "driving cars" and "voting" be described in the Bible as sinful anyway? You think they had popular votes for Caesar while he was driving around his Cadilac? smh

One wouldn't want to vote( especially in these last days.) Jesus taught to be no part of this world( voting is one thing)
This is coming--rev 16.