Something my pastor said during service

[Wormwood]

sorry it took so long to respond. first let us start with the greek word 'oinos' was not used originally in the writing of the old testament so we need to look at the hebrew definitions of words and not greek in order to get the correct meaning. you claim that "i pick out the negative texts on alcohol (most of which are in reference to drunkenness which no one is defending here) but then the positive texts that use a "generic" word for wine, you imply is not generic but is speaking specifically about non-alcoholic drink". even reading about alcohol in today's research on alcohol will help you to understand that even a little alcohol can impair our judgment. also it is interesting to read that secular fitness and health magazines today are recommending the use of nonalcoholic wine for medicinal purposes because the same health benefits are in red grape juice as in red wine. i have already posted the reason for timothy's drinking of wine in post #107. you say, "The wrath of God in reference to wine has nothing to do with alcohol, but the "winepress" in which people would stomp red grapes which would stain their feet and cloths red. This is an image of Gods' wrath which has nothing to do with accepting or rejecting alcoholic drink. If anything, this argues the opposite point in my mind. God's wrath is pictured as the Israelites process for making wine". i sure would like to hear your scripture references to prove your point and not just your views.

you argument on gluttony and obesity has merit but scripturally there are many foods we should not be eating or drinking. for example if we look at what they eat in the bible you will find that they ate organic food. another example you will find that honey is way better then processed sugar and you can switch honey for sugar when cooking. remember we will pay for the consequences for our actions.

well i have to go.

God bless

I can't respond to much now. I must say I disagree strongly that "scripturally there are many foods we should not be eating or drinking." We are not under dietary laws as the Kingdom of God has nothing to do with eating or drinking. I agree that we should be wise in our actions, but to suggest God has mandated dietary laws for his people under the new covenant displays a terrible neglect for the grace and freedom from legal codes we possess in Christ.

 

[Secondhand Lion]

At the risk of sounding a bit like CJ, I got to thinking....

We all know about the Hall of Fame of Faith in Hebrews 11, we have the great people of the faith listed for us and why they are there. There we see the greats, like:

Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses and the like.

Do you think someday, when we all stand before God, we are gonna gather together and it could be like a big awards banquet...kinda like the Baseball Hall of fame or something similar?

God stands up at the podium and goes over the achievements, calls out the name and gives the award for "Outstanding faith", calling one up at a time to receive their award. After God gets done....He moves onto the next category....

The Alcho-hall of fame of faith, God stands at the podium and calls out the names of the greatest achievements by those in the Alcho-hall of Faith!

"And our winners are:"

"Wormwood, River Jordan, KingJ, Williemac, and, of course Noah!"

This, of course, would make Noah the most righteous man of all time, having made both lists and all.

Meh, just thought I would share, I was having a good laugh all morning about it as I was thinking. Hopefully, no matter which side of this argument you come down on...you can laugh about it also.

SL

 

[River Jordan]

The Alcho-hall of fame of faith, God stands at the podium and calls out the names of the greatest achievements by those in the Alcho-hall of Faith!

"And our winners are:"

"Wormwood, River Jordan, KingJ, Williemac, and, of course Noah!"

This, of course, would make Noah the most righteous man of all time, having made both lists and all.

Meh, just thought I would share, I was having a good laugh all morning about it as I was thinking. Hopefully, no matter which side of this argument you come down on...you can laugh about it also.

I suppose being on stage with Noah and being given an award by God would be pretty awesome. ;)

I'm curious though...earlier I posted information from the Jewish perspective, where the cultural, religious, and historic importance of wine is explained, including an explanation of why wine has been a tradition at Jewish weddings for thousands of years. No one really addressed this.

So I wonder....do the "it's a sin to drink" people think they know Jewish scriptures, traditions, and history better than Jews?

 

[williemac]

I agree that Alcoholics are gluttons. But gluttony in this thread has been defined pretty regularly as only having to do with food. This is the exception I am taking with it. I am pointing out that it is a poor analogy to equate drinking alcohol with eating food. We were made to eat food (although not generally the foods I eat :blink: ), so that is at least abusing what we have to do. So to equate the two positions someone would have to make the absurd argument that you could be gluttonous with water. We do not ever have to drink alcohol, that is a choice. We have to drink water to live, not a choice. We have to eat food to live, also not a choice.

I disagree with your focus. The similarity is in the purpose and intention of the individual. The analogy is not directed at the substance. It is directed at the self control of the individual. Drinking to excess or eating to excess are both symptoms. They are not the cause, but the effect of a sign of dependance upon things other than God, for one's fulfillment. We have taste buds. Our senses are involved in what we consume. It is the gratification factor that is the point of the analogy. Food (substance) abuse is just one of an endless possibility of examples.

At the risk of sounding a bit like CJ, I got to thinking....

We all know about the Hall of Fame of Faith in Hebrews 11, we have the great people of the faith listed for us and why they are there. There we see the greats, like:

Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses and the like.

Do you think someday, when we all stand before God, we are gonna gather together and it could be like a big awards banquet...kinda like the Baseball Hall of fame or something similar?

God stands up at the podium and goes over the achievements, calls out the name and gives the award for "Outstanding faith", calling one up at a time to receive their award. After God gets done....He moves onto the next category....

The Alcho-hall of fame of faith, God stands at the podium and calls out the names of the greatest achievements by those in the Alcho-hall of Faith!

"And our winners are:"

"Wormwood, River Jordan, KingJ, Williemac, and, of course Noah!"

This, of course, would make Noah the most righteous man of all time, having made both lists and all.

Meh, just thought I would share, I was having a good laugh all morning about it as I was thinking. Hopefully, no matter which side of this argument you come down on...you can laugh about it also.

Very funny. Here's me not laughing. There's nothing neutral about this attempt at a joke. It comes from one side, not both. But hey, at least you are trying. However, if everyone was right, there'd be no one left! Now that's funny . And it does not mock anyone. Noah's son was in big trouble for doing that. cheers.

 

[Wormwood]

SL,

If I were to take a stab at your joke from the other side of the isle it would look like this...

Here is how the Hall of Faith would read if written by the teetotalers:

Now faith is the assurance of nonalcoholic drinks, the conviction that a sip is sin. For by it the people of old received their O'Doul's. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts and approving the fact that he never had a glass of wine. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks and says that even 0.00001% will prevent you from God's commendation. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him from a world corrupted by alcohol. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God because he never opened a bottle of wine. And with alcohol it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw his drink from oinos must understand that this should only be done in the generic sense of the term...and by generic I mean quite specifically, "non-alcoholic." By faith Noah, barely made this list because he drank alcohol, so lets move on quickly.

Just a joke...only kidding. I applaud those who abstain from alcohol. :)

 

[laid renard]

:lol: LOL :lol:

 

[nothead]

I was in service a few days ago, when the pastor said that he does not ever partake of even one alcoholic drink. I sometimes partake, but not to a drunken state.

He then went on to say that those who do drink and are believers are abusing God's grace and are in danger of hell fire.

I felt very confused for I immediately thought, not in a mean manner, for I am not like that, but like I said, just in a confused way, that this did not make sense to me, for the pastor is extremely over weight. Would not gluttony be considered abuse of our bodies as well and also be considered abusing God/s grace if we follow this stream of thought ?

Like I said, this last sermon left me very confused.

1) He has no right to preach what is outside of NT or OT. But especially the NT of the first two gen Christian ideal (relative) Church.

2) He has a precedent of many 'fathers' in the faith

3) Unfortunately, we will believe our pastors over the canon. This too is not unusual. But think on it, if alcohol leads to sin, then the Holy Eucharist does too.

And too, it is quite likely John's disciples did not drink, that they would live as he did, so when they discipled under the Messiah, NOW WHAT?

Actually your question implied is not at all unclear. We have made it so, since we like to be confused.

 

[laid renard]

I do tend to, when under a stressful situation, go into a state of denial. I'm trying to change that. Thanks for your response. And welcome to our community! :) :)

laid renard ~ B)

 

[River Jordan]

But think on it, if alcohol leads to sin, then the Holy Eucharist does too.

Reminds me of when I visited a friend's church. They were Baptists, and when it came time for The Communion, we went up and when it was my turn, I noticed the drink was grape juice. When I later asked my friend about it, she was like "We always use grape juice. We don't believe in drinking any alcohol at all." I told her that at my church, we've always used wine at Communion (but we also offer grape juice for anyone who wants to do that). She asked why, and I was like "Because the Last Supper was on the Jewish Passover, and the Jewish tradition is to have Kosher wine at the Passover meal. So it stands to reason that that's what they were drinking."

In the end, we both agreed that whether a person drinks wine or grape juice at Communion isn't the important part.

 

[nothead]

This whole grape juice thing makes me laugh. Jesus made some mighty fine grape juice, his first recorded miracle.

Nah, although David Wilkerson thought so, may he rest in peace.

Jews have had real wine at weddings ever since their weddings were real weddings, and not just rehearsals.

 

[KingJ]

So I wonder....do the "it's a sin to drink" people think they know Jewish scriptures, traditions, and history better than Jews?

Agreed! Now if only you would do similar research on your other statement...

They also stoned people for picking up sticks on the Sabbath

At the risk of sounding a bit like CJ, I got to thinking....

We all know about the Hall of Fame of Faith in Hebrews 11, we have the great people of the faith listed for us and why they are there. There we see the greats, like:

Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses and the like.

Do you think someday, when we all stand before God, we are gonna gather together and it could be like a big awards banquet...kinda like the Baseball Hall of fame or something similar?

God stands up at the podium and goes over the achievements, calls out the name and gives the award for "Outstanding faith", calling one up at a time to receive their award. After God gets done....He moves onto the next category....

The Alcho-hall of fame of faith, God stands at the podium and calls out the names of the greatest achievements by those in the Alcho-hall of Faith!

"And our winners are:"

"Wormwood, River Jordan, KingJ, Williemac, and, of course Noah!"

This, of course, would make Noah the most righteous man of all time, having made both lists and all.

Meh, just thought I would share, I was having a good laugh all morning about it as I was thinking. Hopefully, no matter which side of this argument you come down on...you can laugh about it also.

SL

I am imagining how awesome an award ceremony / God's live recording of the lengths we went to to lead others to the Lord would be :).

We are on earth for ONE reason as a Christian.

 

[Wormwood]

I am imagining how awesome an award ceremony / God's live recording of the lengths we went to to lead others to the Lord would be :).

We are on earth for ONE reason as a Christian.

Well said.

 

[nothead]

What would that reason be?

Well said.

What wood that reason be wood. I wood know if I was shmart. Bet you gonna get this one wong, wood.

Maybe not.

Yeah um. Sorry for the troll. I catch Christians on this one frequently though. What is the purpose of a Christian and the reason to be?

 

[Wormwood]

I think KingJ is implying that we should be leading others to the Lord. So, I think this means "loving God" and living in such a way so that our light shines before others so they see our good deeds and give glory to our Father in heaven.

Did I pass?

 

[Secondhand Lion]

Very funny. Here's me not laughing. There's nothing neutral about this attempt at a joke. It comes from one side, not both. But hey, at least you are trying. However, if everyone was right, there'd be no one left! Now that's funny . And it does not mock anyone. Noah's son was in big trouble for doing that. cheers.

Where did I ever claim to be neutral? I am not neutral in this debate nor will I ever be. Sorry if I ever gave the impression I was trying to be neutral. What I have said is, I do not care what you do and it is none of my business. I have never tried or attempted to try to tie anyone's salvation to the use or abuse of alcohol. This is at least the 3rd time I have had to state this, maybe you are consuming something that impairs your memory.

I am imagining how awesome an award ceremony / God's live recording of the lengths we went to to lead others to the Lord would be :).

We are on earth for ONE reason as a Christian.

We are on earth for ONE reason as a Christian.....and drinking does nothing to help that along. (finished your statement for you)

Wormwood,

Thanks for playing along. That was pretty funny, although you should talk to ol' williemac about how one sided you are...you non-neutrality is showing my friend.

SL

As I have said all along, you guys may be right. If so, I have lost nothing. There are times when you are standing on an island all by yourself screaming something to the world and you are the crazy one, but there are times when you are the only sane one. In general, when the world agrees with the position I am arguing...I know I am the crazy one.

You guys will unfortunately never know what it is like being the only bottle of water in the six pack of bud. I am not accepted by either side. The world or you guys....meh, maybe I shouldn't repeat myself. (Sorry in advance there willie)

 

[River Jordan]

Well shoot then, you should be Amish SL. I mean, maybe using electricity and driving cars isn't a big deal to God, or maybe it is. But we know that using electricity and driving cars is in agreement with the world, right?

So stop using electricity and driving cars. If you're wrong, you've lost nothing.

 

[Secondhand Lion]

Well shoot then, you should be Amish SL. I mean, maybe using electricity and driving cars isn't a big deal to God, or maybe it is. But we know that using electricity and driving cars is in agreement with the world, right?

So stop using electricity and driving cars. If you're wrong, you've lost nothing.

LOL! I knew you would get in there with your own joke eventually. Good one River.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

River has been hacked by her twelve year old brother.

 

[River Jordan]

LOL! I knew you would get in there with your own joke eventually. Good one River.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

We're not really talking about just wine are we? Therefore, did Timothy take a little Jack Daniels for his tummy?

What is the Greek word for pure grain?

Two, four, six, eight

Watch how we extrapolate

Wine=beer=whiskey=?????

Round and round and round it goes

Where does it stop?

Perhaps wormwood kingj williemac and River knows.......