Something my pastor said during service

[Secondhand Lion]

Trying to sow discord in those who disagree with you, eh? Seems a little desperate.

Yes, desperate is my middle name. The thing is River, you can not be reached. My posts are not for you. They are to sway anyone who may be on the fence or undecided, especially those who will read this later. You are stuck in your mindset and there is nothing that could possibly change it, short of direct intervention from God. My language is always laced with "maybe" and "possible", I can take any perspective and learn from it. Maybe you guys are all right but maybe you are all wrong. It is my experience that there is no other questionable subject out there that Christians are so willing to not take a hard stand on. Christian drinkers are more than willing to join right in with the world on this subject, again, in my experience. I can not say these statements hold true everywhere.

The most dangerous person in the world is someone who has nothing left to learn because they already know it all.

I will make the same offer to you as I did for gerry earlier. I will take that first drink ever...just for you. Just tell me to. There is nothing wrong with it right? I am an adult. Will you send me down that path? If not, why? If so, why? Let's put this into shoe leather.

SL

 

[KingJ]

The most dangerous person in the world is someone who has nothing left to learn because they already know it all.

I will make the same offer to you as I did for gerry earlier. I will take that first drink ever...just for you. Just tell me to. There is nothing wrong with it right? I am an adult. Will you send me down that path? If not, why? If so, why? Let's put this into shoe leather.

SL

SL I definitely suggest you try just one drink. One or two drinks help mellow a person. It is difficult to drink more then that. You have to force yourself to do it.

You are right that kids do it to be naughty and that its bad for them. Nobody should encourage kids to drink.

Regarding Jews and wine, I agree with this link. Made for an interesting read. http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/581082/jewish/What-is-Judaisms-take-on-alcohol-consumption.htm

 

[Wormwood]

CJ,

It appears I am following along better than you are. Did you not say...

SL

You are "wielding the temperance hatchet well." However, as the Holy Spirit convicts, those that partake of the "spirits" just want this thread to end, as they keep imploring.
What is the Greek phrase for "old fashioned conviction?"
Are there any other behaviors we keep our children from and yet demand as adults?
Someone needs to carry this nation.

RJ had a very appropriate response of driving and voting which you denounced as off point because they are not "sinful." But this IS the point! You are trying to establish what is or is not sinful based on what children can or cannot do, and others are trying to base it on what a person can do when someone is preaching. All of these are non sequitur as none of this has anything to do with Biblical views on morality. RJ's point is precisely that voting and driving are just as silly as the propositions you are making and my point was that none of these issues you guys are trying to bring up as a means of establishing your morality were even issues that existed in the first century. So, I think you are the one who needs to keep up with the discussion. We are not trying to make a morality based on voting and driving cars (which is what you are trying to force us to do with your non sequitur examples), but are showing you that your entire framework for proving alcohol to be immoral is ridiculous. (which according to the JW kjw47, voting IS sinful. You see how messy this gets when you get away from the Bible and make such arbitrary standards your rationale for morality?). Can we get back to the discussion now?

 

[River Jordan]

So, moderate use by children is acceptable?

What do studies show about negative consequences of alcohol use in adults?

You should post them, you won't so soon I will.

Here's an interesting one...

Heavy drinking in middle age speeds cognitive decline, study finds

Drinking more than 2 1/2 drinks per day speeds mental decline as one ages. So score one for the temperance crowd, right? Ah, but there's a twist...

"But women who had abstained from alcohol completely for a decade or more suffered the greatest loss of cognitive function of all groups in the following decade, the new research found. Compared with middle-aged women who drank no more than five drinks per week, on average, the middle-aged female abstainers experience a 50% greater loss of cognitive function in the second decade of the study."

IOW, those who didn't drink at all had the greatest loss of mental abilities.

Yes, desperate is my middle name. The thing is River, you can not be reached. My posts are not for you. They are to sway anyone who may be on the fence or undecided, especially those who will read this later. You are stuck in your mindset and there is nothing that could possibly change it, short of direct intervention from God. My language is always laced with "maybe" and "possible", I can take any perspective and learn from it. Maybe you guys are all right but maybe you are all wrong. It is my experience that there is no other questionable subject out there that Christians are so willing to not take a hard stand on. Christian drinkers are more than willing to join right in with the world on this subject, again, in my experience. I can not say these statements hold true everywhere.

The most dangerous person in the world is someone who has nothing left to learn because they already know it all.

I will make the same offer to you as I did for gerry earlier. I will take that first drink ever...just for you. Just tell me to. There is nothing wrong with it right? I am an adult. Will you send me down that path? If not, why? If so, why? Let's put this into shoe leather.

If your goal is to make the case that drinking even one glass of wine is a sin, then you probably need to cite some scripture for that.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Worm,

We do not allow children to partake of alcohol because it is bad for people. Alcohol is a drug. Bad things happen when it is consumed. I am pointing out the fallacy in keeping something that is supposedly good (your view) from children, yet allowing it for adults.

You claim that my conclusion is disconnected from my premise. Are you ignorant? From what I can tell, it seems you are not. Therefore, you must be disingenuous. So, I stand by my point that you are not keeping up and accuse you of doing it purposefully.


River,

Now you are taking the stand that if one does not drink, they will suffer consequences. I will let that speak for itself.

 

[River Jordan]

Oh brother....

I didn't take that stance. You asked for studies about alcohol use in adults. I gave you one.

Do you have trouble with studies that produce results that aren't what you want? It sure looks that way.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Please forgive my transgression.

I seemed to have responded to what you actually wrote rather than the cryptic message you were meaning to postulate.

'Tis a problem we literalists often face in scripture as well. For example in this thread I am taking the stand that alcohol is bad, scripture after scripture backs my view yet I seem to be missing the hidden meaning of using drugs.

I guess it's just part of being a fundie. Someday perhaps, fundies will have beer and bible study night, or foot washing and Jim Beam weekend. Jack Daniels youth night, watching "Porky's" this month.

 

[Wormwood]

CJ,

It's one thing to have convictions about debatable matters, and quite another to condemn and harass people who disagree with you. Clearly you have a weak conscience on this issue and you feel very limited with the freedom you have in Christ. That is fine, but do not impose your self-imposed legalism on things not expressly written in Scripture on others. While misrepresenting others continually may make you feel like you are making a point, it really just comes across like you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

So, I guess River and I will continue on with our Jim Beam weekends while you enjoy your communal gatherings with hymnals by candlelight and KJV only Bible readings. These caricatures go both ways.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Again I feel as though harassment is not what you are feeling.

Conviction? Yes. Harassment? No.

Point of order.

River's church does have beer/bible study night.

Now, we are getting back to the OP. The pastor was saying those who drink are trampling on their "freedom" in Christ.

I happen to feel the whole "freedom" message is a gross misinterpretation of Paul's teachings, but that is another thread.

Reaping and sowing follows any choice.

You want this thread to end. I can tell you are very uncomfortable defending alcohol. This is good.

So, just walk away. Don't post. Don't look. Out of sight, out of mind.

 

[Secondhand Lion]

SL I definitely suggest you try just one drink. One or two drinks help mellow a person. It is difficult to drink more then that. You have to force yourself to do it.

You are right that kids do it to be naughty and that its bad for them. Nobody should encourage kids to drink.

Regarding Jews and wine, I agree with this link. Made for an interesting read. http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/581082/jewish/What-is-Judaisms-take-on-alcohol-consumption.htm

Thank you. Finally. One of you is honest enough to admit that even one drink has an effect on you. One drink would mellow me? How do you know that? I know a guy that one drink sends him into a fight a minute mode. How do you know that wouldn't be me?

None of you knew me before I came to Christ so let me give a little background.

I was a thief. I had a mouth that would make a sailor blush. I was a pervert. Filthy mind. I was in a fight a day. I hurt people (emotionally physically), badly....old people....for "fun". I did not kill anyone that I stuck around to find out or heard about. I've been in just about every kind of situation that you could imagine. Drugs, drinking, prostitution, fighting, shootings, stabbings, name it. I ran in circles that kept me trapped with the same hoodlums. Btw...we were doing all this stuff and they accused me of being a Christian over not drinking, puts it into a little more perspective huh? The same people who were kicking the tar out of octogenarians with me...thought I was a Christian because I didn't drink with them...ugh.

I let you know that little bit to tell you all this...especially you KingJ (because I think you may be the most reasonably reached), Christ mellowed me! That is the ministry of the Holy Spirit of God to mellow me! Christ in me, the hope of glory! I do not need a drink and neither do you. Christ is sufficient.

I do not know what backgrounds you all came from, and quite frankly, it is none of my business. Maybe some have come from worse, maybe from better, but the Holy Spirit will mellow you if you need it. I promise. You may or may not like me now, but I also promise you...you would not have liked me if you knew me before Christ grabbed me and showed me who I am.

Thank you for the admission that one drink does effect you, that is at least the first step.

SL

 

[KingJ]

Thanks for sharing your testimony SL.

Drinking was part and parcel of your life of rebellion. I would expect you to feel the need to abstain 100% for a while. No Christian who knows your past must tempt you either.

I see that this is a difficult discussion for many Christians because many drank before they got saved h34r:. Any drinking soon after being saved would be putting them feet ''back in Egypt'' = sin. This becomes like the firearm discussion imho. Oscar Pistorius is to avoid firearms for the forseeable future. But until he dies?

The fact that alcohol made sinning easier is a fact that cannot be ignored. You must abstain from it now. But only until you are rehabilitated. The alcohol was not evil for you. The gun was not evil for Oscar. Abuse was. But does that then mean it should be a precedent for all? I guess it wouldn't hurt. I would sacrifice my few drinks for the greater good :). It just seems pedantic for a Christian to isolate an item / substance like it as evil. That is farming backwards to the OT law surely?

A better question then it being acceptable in church would be....would it be acceptable in the new millennium? I think yes. A means of relaxing / mellowing out that does not damage lungs or harm the body = great creation by God. Just like sex?

 

[Secondhand Lion]

Thanks for sharing your testimony SL.

Drinking was part and parcel of your life of rebellion. I would expect you to feel the need to abstain 100% for a while. No Christian who knows your past must tempt you either.

I see that this is a difficult discussion for many Christians because many drank before they got saved h34r:. Any drinking soon after being saved would be putting them feet ''back in Egypt'' = sin. This becomes like the firearm discussion imho. Oscar Pistorius is to avoid firearms for the forseeable future. But until he dies?

The fact that alcohol made sinning easier is a fact that cannot be ignored. You must abstain from it now. But only until you are rehabilitated. The alcohol was not evil for you. The gun was not evil for Oscar. Abuse was. But does that then mean it should be a precedent for all? I guess it wouldn't hurt. I would sacrifice my few drinks for the greater good :). It just seems pedantic for a Christian to isolate an item / substance like it as evil. That is farming backwards to the OT law surely?

A better question then it being acceptable in church would be....would it be acceptable in the new millennium? I think yes. A means of relaxing / mellowing out that does not damage lungs or harm the body = great creation by God. Just like sex?

I would fight beside you arm in arm if someone said you could not do it (drink) as a way to keep or earn salvation. My argument is not based in what we can or can not do. I said in my very first post on this issue...I do not have bible to say to absolutely not do it. So since I do not have bible, I say, do what you want.

My argument is based in we should not (not can not). I admit, the perspective that I have may come from the utter destruction I have seen in my life centered around alcohol. Thus Christians should not. It is not that they can not. Again, if anyone comes and tries to make you live according to the "law" (man made or God made), I will be the first to draw next to you and fight right along side you.

This may be the distinction in what CJ and I are arguing. Maybe he can answer if he thinks a Christian can not or should not.

Would it be acceptable in the new millennium? I don't know. I have never thought about it until you asked. Good question. My initial reaction would be that it is a moot point. If we will be drinking alcohol, wouldn't you agree that not one single person would abuse it? Thus the point is moot. The deciding factor would be, we can abuse it now, if we can't then, is it the same? I will put more thought into it. I enjoy running across things I have never considered. Excellent question.

SL

 

[Wormwood]

CJ,

I feel that your feeling of what I am feeling is not what I am feeling at all. I just am not overly interested in majoring in minors. You want to make it a big deal, but to me it is not. You say conviction and big deal... I say, "meh." That's the difference.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Your witness may indeed be of minor import to you. Mine is of major importance to me.

So yes, I guess in that case we are different.

SL,

Here is what the scripture says. I cannot judge another man's salvation, but I can look to Holy Scripture for clarity.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10 KJV)

Drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God. Now let's go back and debate what moderate drinking is.

 

[laid renard]

Thank you. Finally. One of you is honest enough to admit that even one drink has an effect on you. One drink would mellow me? How do you know that? I know a guy that one drink sends him into a fight a minute mode. How do you know that wouldn't be me?

None of you knew me before I came to Christ so let me give a little background.

I was a thief. I had a mouth that would make a sailor blush. I was a pervert. Filthy mind. I was in a fight a day. I hurt people (emotionally physically), badly....old people....for "fun". I did not kill anyone that I stuck around to find out or heard about. I've been in just about every kind of situation that you could imagine. Drugs, drinking, prostitution, fighting, shootings, stabbings, name it. I ran in circles that kept me trapped with the same hoodlums. Btw...we were doing all this stuff and they accused me of being a Christian over not drinking, puts it into a little more perspective huh? The same people who were kicking the tar out of octogenarians with me...thought I was a Christian because I didn't drink with them...ugh.

I let you know that little bit to tell you all this...especially you KingJ (because I think you may be the most reasonably reached), Christ mellowed me! That is the ministry of the Holy Spirit of God to mellow me! Christ in me, the hope of glory! I do not need a drink and neither do you. Christ is sufficient.

I do not know what backgrounds you all came from, and quite frankly, it is none of my business. Maybe some have come from worse, maybe from better, but the Holy Spirit will mellow you if you need it. I promise. You may or may not like me now, but I also promise you...you would not have liked me if you knew me before Christ grabbed me and showed me who I am.

Thank you for the admission that one drink does effect you, that is at least the first step.

SL

Awesome testimony dude!! :) B) :)

Here's an interesting one...

Heavy drinking in middle age speeds cognitive decline, study finds

Drinking more than 2 1/2 drinks per day speeds mental decline as one ages. So score one for the temperance crowd, right? Ah, but there's a twist...

"But women who had abstained from alcohol completely for a decade or more suffered the greatest loss of cognitive function of all groups in the following decade, the new research found. Compared with middle-aged women who drank no more than five drinks per week, on average, the middle-aged female abstainers experience a 50% greater loss of cognitive function in the second decade of the study."

IOW, those who didn't drink at all had the greatest loss of mental abilities.

That's cause we have to live with men.

 

[River Jordan]

Please forgive my transgression.

I seemed to have responded to what you actually wrote rather than the cryptic message you were meaning to postulate.

??????? You asked for studies on the physical effects of alcohol on adults. I gave you one, but didn't take a position on it one way or the other. Again, if you don't want the information, stop asking for it.

'Tis a problem we literalists often face in scripture as well. For example in this thread I am taking the stand that alcohol is bad, scripture after scripture backs my view

It does? Where does scripture say that even one drink of alcohol is a sin?

River's church does have beer/bible study night.

Again you demonstrate that you don't really read what people post. I didn't say my church did that, I said some churches in the Pacific Northwest have those events.

I would fight beside you arm in arm if someone said you could not do it (drink) as a way to keep or earn salvation. My argument is not based in what we can or can not do. I said in my very first post on this issue...I do not have bible to say to absolutely not do it. So since I do not have bible, I say, do what you want.

And I think that's a key point here. I'm not trying to get you to drink or even say that you or anyone else should drink alcohol. I barely do it myself. So the argument isn't from our side that everyone should drink alcohol; it's more like "If you think alcohol is a sin, then don't drink, but not everyone believes that way."

But those on the temperance side do seem to be arguing that no Christian should drink any alcohol at all, ever and are trying to convince others to change their behavior. The OP even suggests some think it's a salvation issue.

See the difference?

That's cause we have to live with men.

No kidding!!! B)

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

River,

You continually prove that you simply cannot be trusted with any data gathering studies as you will always pick and choose the one that supports your opinion.



You have no integrity in this particular pursuit.

I have posted scriptures referring to an inebriated state. Your side continually argues the legalistic point that one drink is not drunk although it is infinitely more drunk than no drinks.

Are you offended that I misunderstood that it was your church with the beer/bible study? Why? Why not bring it up to your pastor this week and let us know what she says.

 

[River Jordan]

River,

You continually prove that you simply cannot be trusted with any data gathering studies as you will always pick and choose the one that supports your opinion.

You have no integrity in this particular pursuit.

And now the personal insults. How typical.

I have posted scriptures referring to an inebriated state. Your side continually argues the legalistic point that one drink is not drunk although it is infinitely more drunk than no drinks.

And one cheeseburger is infinitely closer to gluttony than fasting.

Are you offended that I misunderstood that it was your church with the beer/bible study? Why?

It's just further evidence that you don't pay attention to what people post.

Why not bring it up to your pastor this week and let us know what she says.

Having a beer tasting/Bible study? I wont' because I have no interest in that.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

No personal insults intended whatsoever. I am sure in real life you don't cheat on your taxes, you rescue puppies and kittens, you fight for spotted owl habitat and give your boyfriend/husband the last slice of pizza even if you want it.

But on the forum board, you have to be right even if it means finding the study that suits your views. No harm in that. Perhaps in real life I not an overbearing sarcastic jerk.

Again, for the tenth time. One cheeseburger is NOT the same as one drink. You have to eat to survive, you do not have to consume alcoholic beverages. Some people do I guess when the spiders begin crawling all over them.

 

[River Jordan]

No personal insults intended whatsoever.

Sure...."you can't be trusted"....who would take that as an insult?

But on the forum board, you have to be right even if it means finding the study that suits your views.

Then why did you ask me for studies in the first place? You're playing a rather silly game where you ask me to post studies of the effects of alcohol use on adults, I post some, and you complain about what I posted. If you don't like it, post your own info and/or stop asking me to.

Again, for the tenth time. One cheeseburger is NOT the same as one drink. You have to eat to survive

You don't have to eat cheeseburgers though. They're pretty unhealthy and bad for you. You should have fruits and vegetables instead.